Everything else sucks compared to AE farming

[Troo]

On 9/25/2019 at 2:49 AM, Weylin said:

Fundamentally, what really gets to me, is that there is practically no correlation between difficulty and reward.

If you're playing at settings in which you barely survive each encounter, it seems intuitive that it should reward more than an EB who chucks a knife at you every 5 seconds.

You're right on this.

So.. are you saying AE rewards for repeated missions should be reduced?

[TheSpiritFox]

On 9/25/2019 at 9:10 AM, swordchucks said:

The problem is really that fire farming is entirely too rewarding for the challenge/risk/time associated with it.  I'd like to see it brought more in line with pretty much every other activity in the game.  I've never heard a reasonable argument for keeping it as-is outside of "anyone can do it" and "I like it". 

Ha ok. 

City of Heroes is a very grindy game. Grind serves the specific purpose of extending the time investment required to achieve things, which serves the specific purpose of keeping you paying your subscription to City of Heroes. 

A concept which no longer exists. 

 

This is now a free game that we play for fun. 

Some people find efficiency fun. Slower content is available. Story arcs are always there to run, and plenty of us do run them. At the same time, different classes have very different solo and team leveling curves. Brutes are easy to solo, MMs evenmoreso, blasters can be a nightmare, tanks are slow and pretty boring, controllers can be a nightmare, etc. The efficiency smooths the leveling curve out for more onerous ATs. And lets face it, people will always PL. People will run level 54 PI radio missions and doorsit bank robberies if they have to, thats the kinda stuff we resorted to we used to do before the AE. Saving missions and not completing them and resetting them endlessly because it was a big map with an enemy group you were built to farm. 

Some people like experimenting with different ATs or powerset combinations. If you've played this game enough, you want to try out lots of stuff at some point, see how it feels. To really get a feel for a class, you've got to get it past 25 and get at least some basic ios in it, to learn it you've got to get it into the 30s or above. Thats a significant time investment. PLing a toon to the thirties and then figuring it out, much less time investment. As this is a free game, there's no justifiable reason for taking that away from people. 

Some people find engaging with the AH and in game economy fun. These are the people that make it possible in many ways for you to get all kinds of stuff. Materials used to be prohibitively expensive. Recipes were often the same. Farmers are often the ones who buy it now at a high price, handing over 20 million for a purple drop like it's nothing because it's not, it's literally like 10-12 minutes of our time on a good day. At the same time, we farm drops, not just influence. Those drops are why anyone can cheaply go and find yellow and orange sets to fill out a decent build at any level. They add to the count of boosters, converters, and catalysts for sale and keep the supply up and the price down. Farmers are the supply side of the in game economy. Nerfing farming is a direct nerf to the supply side economics of every server. 

Some people find learning the game in and out engaging. This is what farmers do. Efficiency requires knowledge. Farming keeps a steady supply of people with a ton of in-game knowledge in your gaming environment and help channel. It keeps those of us who can afford alt after alt making alt after alt to run those DFBs and lower task forces and endless bafs to get incarnates up that other people need. Most farmers do not just farm. We use farming as a means to any number of ends, pretty much all of which benefit other players. The ones that don't, well the devs have already seeded things like materials on the AH so that in the end no one can like corner the market for ritki alloys and run the price up to half a billion each. But farmers are the ones who can afford to buy super pack after super pack and drop rare ios on the market for  you to buy, and get the rapid drops to do the same from their personal stashes. Farmers are the ones who can afford to throw out a hundred million on a costume contest every Thursday like it's not a big deal because again, if the guild has 10 farmers doing it it's like less than ten minutes of their time each. That small time investment for a farmer is some completely random person's purple set. 

 

People are happy every single time I run a free farm and throw ten levels at their characters in an hour. Every time. Farming is a service to our little community dude. Sure, it benefits me most. It's my time playing a game, it should. But granting us efficiency in some areas lets us be generous in alot of others. Dude was on his first character the other day at P2W trying to buy some basic stuff to help him out and I can afford to just quietly hand him 10 million just to help out. 

That's like several reasonable arguments. 

Edited October 12, 2019 by TheSpiritFox

[Darth_Helmet]

Old school farmer here. Been playing since 2p04 before AE. Used to charge people for PI runs on the different farming missions at portal corp.

 

People will always find a way to "farm" . So putting AE in seems natural to appeal to that mindset.

 

What I worry about is too many people hermiting in AE on AFK farms or fire farms , and causing a cascading boredom effect of a feeling of emptiness in the game.

 

In all honesty , and this comes from someone who does farm...I do think the game would be more lively if the farming were done more like it was in the old days -- pick up teams, street hunting etc...

 

I think a hard look should be given at buffing xp to activities that make the game more alive and social....to reward the things that actually keep the game alive..

 

If farming is a 'means of progress' or a necessary evil....buff up the content xp, give more team bonuses for doing non AE missions etc...so farmers can still farm...but you still make great inf / xp by leading pick up teams..

 

Sorry for the long post, gotta go get back to my afk farm and reset the mission

[boggo2300]

Considering what AE's original purpose was, I honestly don't understand why they let it give xp in the first place, cats outta the bag now, but dumb decision considering what AE was supposed to be

[Sunrunner]

6 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Considering what AE's original purpose was, I honestly don't understand why they let it give xp in the first place, cats outta the bag now, but dumb decision considering what AE was supposed to be

Someone had an idea for a new feature.  It was a good idea.  Content created by the players for the players.

 

However, you get the behavior you reward.  They wanted us to touch it; they had to justify the time spent creating it to their bosses after all.  Almost no one was going to touch it absent rewards; no where near the amount of people that'd satisfy their bosses anywise.  So they made the feature give rewards.

 

We touched it! ... for the rewards.

 

Removing the rewards means we stop touching it.  Do you want us to keep touching it?  ( Yes | No )

Edited October 12, 2019 by Sunrunner
Formatting.

[CreepyMaxx]

Here is my issue and it's a big one. You can go into some of these farms, set the one auto power to the heal and go afk... +4/8    come back in however much time(you will not be afk logged off ever) and everything will be dead, it will have all wondered into you. Run out, reset, and run back to the fork in the road/into the wandering mobs. The inf rolls in, billions. You are not even clicking at this point, you are doing chores, a quick bench press set, etc. Hell, turn one on before bed. I have not seen this basic flaw/farming in 20 years/Ulitma online  etc. Why don't they just do away with inf at this point? Forget power leveling, this is about free cash... free merits.. all of it. THAT is bad, to me. I vote to just nuke that entire building.

[Odhinn]

Okay I have to ask the following. This is the same question I nearly always ask when one argues for a nerf. Does someone enjoying the game their way negatively affect the way you enjoy the game? Does a player farming keep you from enjoying a mission arc or a TF? I do not see how AE farming does that.

 

This is not a retail game wherein grinds need to be established to keep subscribers.

[CreepyMaxx]

15 minutes ago, Odhinn said:

Okay I have to ask the following. This is the same question I nearly always ask when one argues for a nerf. Does someone enjoying the game their way negatively affect the way you enjoy the game? Does a player farming keep you from enjoying a mission arc or a TF? I do not see how AE farming does that.

 

This is not a retail game wherein grinds need to be established to keep subscribers.

Well... when someone comes into a PvP area you are in cause you need something, or just trying it out, etc... and they stomp you with a toon that has 1 billion into from idle farming I would say that would keep you from enjoying. Or say you played your guy up to 50... you did it yourself... you only have IO's... and then you find out you are just not good enough when teams look you over because you have not 'put the work in'. Does that qualify?

Edited October 13, 2019 by CreepyMaxx

[Odhinn]

On 10/12/2019 at 8:04 PM, CreepyMaxx said:

Well... when someone comes into a PvP area you are in cause you need something, or just trying it out, etc... and they stomp you with a toon that has 1 billion into from idle farming I would say that would keep you from enjoying. Or say you played your guy up to 50... you did it yourself... you only have IO's... and then you find out you are just not good enough when teams look you over because you have not 'put the work in'. Does that qualify?

 

Thanks for the response. While I certainly understand what you are saying I do not think those scenarios are endemic of farming. Wandering into a PvP zone in many games can lead to a quick squish for any number of reasons from build to "skill" to equipment and that billion inf for IO sets could come from other sources as well.

I have never experienced an equipment check in all my time in CoH from issue 1 to present.

[First Player]

On 10/12/2019 at 8:04 PM, CreepyMaxx said:

Well... when someone comes into a PvP area you are in cause you need something, or just trying it out, etc... and they stomp you with a toon that has 1 billion into from idle farming I would say that would keep you from enjoying. Or say you played your guy up to 50... you did it yourself... you only have IO's... and then you find out you are just not good enough when teams look you over because you have not 'put the work in'. Does that qualify?

How can you tell who has and who hasn't farmed?

[Heraclea]

I find instead that everything else sucks compared to task forces.  My usual method of levelling a character blueside is fairly simple.  I run one or two DfB trials on a new character, enough to put them in range of Positron 1 and 2.  Then, with double XP or 1 1/2 XP I run the Freedom Phalanx TFs in series, together with a couple Moonfires, repeating as needed when a character falls a bit shy of the mark.  Then it's off to Cimerora to repeat ITFs and then Lady Grays.  I ding 50 with a stockpile of usually more than 400 merits that can be used for ATOs and the most important set recipes for my planned builds.  And since the main thing my max level characters do is run the TFs for merits, including exemping task forces, I have all the recipes I need. 

 

AE figures into the plan as a once in a while thing.  I play for tickets.  Those recipes need salvage.

 

By this artifice I don't have to worry about what the markets might be doing.  I get to buy everything now without having to play for inf.  This is the plan I followed on old live.  I realize that inf on Homecoming is a bit more valuable than it was on old live, but that just means that I need less of it.  Where the inf mostly goes is to my crafters, who keep the base stocked with level 15-35 generic IOs.  Once the recipes are memorized that's not a major drain.  I will also use the market to buy white salvage in bulk that gets converted into the big five lowbie IOs - accuracy, recharge, end-redux, end-mod, damage.  That again doesn't require playing for inf. 

[Securityuniform]

5 hours ago, First Player said:

How can you tell who has and who hasn't farmed?

I'd imagine that if someone wasnt playing their alt to the best of their ability and you looked at the info, the lack of any of the normal badges you get playing properly would be a dead giveaway. Even someone who has only ever teamed would have enemy defeats or time held or amount healed. If all they have is level up badges, AE badges and a lack of anything else then chances are they are either farming toons or have been power levelled in a farm.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Securityuniform

[TheSpiritFox]

On 10/12/2019 at 7:04 PM, CreepyMaxx said:

Well... when someone comes into a PvP area you are in cause you need something, or just trying it out, etc... and they stomp you with a toon that has 1 billion into from idle farming I would say that would keep you from enjoying. Or say you played your guy up to 50... you did it yourself... you only have IO's... and then you find out you are just not good enough when teams look you over because you have not 'put the work in'. Does that qualify?

Most people don't PVP and I've never seen groups asking anyone anything about their build. People ask about incarnates for Itrials and if you've got +3 no one looks at you more than that. You're creating problems that don't exist with that one. If you wanna compete in PVP you have to compete with Min Maxers. Trying to nerf that you might as well limit everyone to 10 million influence max in their wallet at any one time. 

[jubakumbi]

4 minutes ago, TheSpiritFox said:

... You're creating problems that don't exist ... 

Is that not true of pretty much every single MMO forum thread? 🙂

All I see typically is a bunch od useless drama around minutae that has little bearing on normal gameplay.

Examining others trying to shame them is just full on Creating Problems That Don't Exist.

 

'Put in the Work' in a video game is pure Protestant Work Ethic guilt trying to ruin the fun...anyone that thinks this way is, IMO, not someone I want to spend time with, in any capacity...it's just an excuse to shame and hate another person, it's childish and uneducated to boot.

 

This is Play, not Work and no one has to live up to the stupid expectaions of other players. 🙂

[FiveStarHero]

My only issue with AE farming is when someone uses it to level but doesnt bother learning how their powers are supposed to work in the process.  I know with a good team it doesn't matter but it's still kind of annoying sometimes when you get max level characters who have no idea how their powerset works or how to use it effectively.

 

Other than that I have zero issues with it even though I choose not to do it myself.

[EmmySky]

46 minutes ago, FiveStarHero said:

My only issue with AE farming is when someone uses it to level but doesnt bother learning how their powers are supposed to work in the process.  I know with a good team it doesn't matter but it's still kind of annoying sometimes when you get max level characters who have no idea how their powerset works or how to use it effectively.

 

Other than that I have zero issues with it even though I choose not to do it myself.

This.

 

This happened to me on live so much, even before AE existed.  By and large I am a play and let play kind of girl.  But if your playstyle impacts my playstyle, I draw the line.  I can't tell until I team with you but I will be able to tell.

[Sunrunner]

4 hours ago, FiveStarHero said:

My only issue with AE farming is when someone uses it to level but doesnt bother learning how their powers are supposed to work in the process.  I know with a good team it doesn't matter but it's still kind of annoying sometimes when you get max level characters who have no idea how their powerset works or how to use it effectively.

 

Other than that I have zero issues with it even though I choose not to do it myself.

My experience runs a bit differently.  Very few people have any real idea of how their powerset works or how to use it effectively.  Most people take what looks good to them -- or that they've been told is good by other people -- and run with it.  (... including myself more often than I'm comfortable admitting! 😉 )

 

How they leveled doesn't appear to make much of a difference.

[Dr Causality]

On 9/25/2019 at 2:54 AM, cejmp said:

Thats an artifact of the original risk reward concepts that has been pushed to limits not foreseen during OG roll out. They never quite got it through their heads that players will seek the path of least resistance every time.

It's also a tough problem to solve, because there will always be a path of least resistance and it's rarely where the designer(s) imagined it would be.

[roleki]

Can someone please articulate an actual PROBLEM caused by AE farming?  "I don't like it!" or "It's too easy!"  or "They aren't pressing the buttons the same way I do" just do not seem like valid complaints to me.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult - I would love to be made to understand how my killing a bunch of stuff to level up and kit my alts affects YOUR gameplay in any way, aside from filling the AH with a metric ton of cheap salvage and recipes. 

 

Without understanding the ACTUAL harm I am causing, all these calls to nuke/nerf/gimp AE seem, I don't know, petulant or something, and I have to imagine there aren't THAT many people with that unfortunate character flaw where the only approved way to entertain yourself is the same way THEY entertain themselves.

 

[EmmySky]

39 minutes ago, roleki said:

Can someone please articulate an actual PROBLEM caused by AE farming?  "I don't like it!" or "It's too easy!"  or "They aren't pressing the buttons the same way I do" just do not seem like valid complaints to me.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult - I would love to be made to understand how my killing a bunch of stuff to level up and kit my alts affects YOUR gameplay in any way, aside from filling the AH with a metric ton of cheap salvage and recipes. 

 

Without understanding the ACTUAL harm I am causing, all these calls to nuke/nerf/gimp AE seem, I don't know, petulant or something, and I have to imagine there aren't THAT many people with that unfortunate character flaw where the only approved way to entertain yourself is the same way THEY entertain themselves.

 

I can't speak to the farming aspect of it, I have a farmer to kit out my alts as well.  I even have people door sit if their kick is being power leveled. 

 

My issue only comes in when said power leveled characters get out into the game and team up with my alts and cause repeated (or even just one) team wipe because they don't know the difference between a power and an inspiration (because they never actually played the toon just stood in a door somewhere).  

 

That being said, I have not had this problem on HC.  Its an old hang-up of mine from live.  I have found that most people here in HC are players from back in the day who do, indeed, know how to play their toons regardless of AT or powersets.  

 

I, too, dump salvage and recipes on AH (generally at 100 each) and I think it helps the people who dont have farmers, so they can kit out their alts too.

 

To be fair, power levelong was going on way before AE so I, like you, am confused regarding the blame falling on AE.

[jubakumbi]

9 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

My issue only comes in when said power leveled characters get out into the game and team up with my alts and cause repeated (or even just one) team wipe because they don't know the difference between a power and an inspiration (because they never actually played the toon just stood in a door somewhere).  

Funny, I just laugh and get back up to fight the bad guys, we can wipe over and over, it's not like it matters, and the chaos is awesome.

I find the entire oulook of someone that has 'issues' with another player just because they don't play the game to thier exacting standards to be the very definition of a 'party-pooper', personally.

So many people seem to lose sight of the fact this is a game for relaxation, not some second job that has to get done on time, IMO.

With the rewards as easy as they are to obtain, including XP and drops, so what if the teams wipes?

 

PUGs make the game interesting, rather than a boring, prescribed, step by step dungeon crawl that makes my eyes bleed from boredom.

 

Have fun, make mistakes, learn to play as you like!

If people have 'issues' because you have not mastered a character to thier satisfaction, screw 'em.

[roleki]

2 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

I can't speak to the farming aspect of it, I have a farmer to kit out my alts as well.  I even have people door sit if their kick is being power leveled. 

 

My issue only comes in when said power leveled characters get out into the game and team up with my alts and cause repeated (or even just one) team wipe because they don't know the difference between a power and an inspiration (because they never actually played the toon just stood in a door somewhere).  

 

That being said, I have not had this problem on HC.  Its an old hang-up of mine from live.  I have found that most people here in HC are players from back in the day who do, indeed, know how to play their toons regardless of AT or powersets.  

 

I, too, dump salvage and recipes on AH (generally at 100 each) and I think it helps the people who dont have farmers, so they can kit out their alts too.

 

To be fair, power levelong was going on way before AE so I, like you, am confused regarding the blame falling on AE.

 

That's why I don't PL rando's/people who spend all night spamming broadcast begging for an AE farm - I don't want to be an accessory to a poorly-piloted toon ACTUALLY ruining a third player's experience, because that really IS harmful.  That said, there are plenty of numbskulls who level-up the old fashioned way and still can't drive, so it's not like blowing up AE is going to eradicate THAT scourge.

As for dumping loot into AH, I put (almost) EVERYTHING up for 8 inf, be it a Demonic Threat Report or another (darn) Soulbound Allegiance.  Yeah, I've taken a theoretical bath on a LOT of things, but on balance stuff tends to go for around market value; it comes down to a decision, would I rather be melting faces or getting max value out of my virtual garage sale? 

 

So I melt those faces.  

[roleki]

5 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

Funny, I just laugh and get back up to fight the bad guys, we can wipe over and over, it's not like it matters, and the chaos is awesome.

I find the entire oulook of someone that has 'issues' with another player just because they don't play the game to thier exacting standards to be the very definition of a 'party-pooper', personally.

So many people seem to lose sight of the fact this is a game for relaxation, not some second job that has to get done on time, IMO.

With the rewards as easy as they are to obtain, including XP and drops, so what if the teams wipes?

 

PUGs make the game interesting, rather than a boring, prescribed, step by step dungeon crawl that makes my eyes bleed from boredom.

 

Have fun, make mistakes, learn to play as you like!

If people have 'issues' because you have not mastered a character to thier satisfaction, screw 'em.

I agree, to a point.  I think a random team wipe can be hilarious if it's a one-off, but I somewhat understand the people who get annoyed when a team wipes repeatedly because someone keeps making the same type of mistakes over and over and over.  I think it mattered more when we were all on the hook for 15.00 a month, but even without real money riding on it, I'd still prefer MY gameplay not negatively impact the enjoyment of others, and I would hope they offer me the same consideration.

[jubakumbi]

Just now, roleki said:

I agree, to a point.  I think a random team wipe can be hilarious if it's a one-off, but I somewhat understand the people who get annoyed when a team wipes repeatedly because someone keeps making the same type of mistakes over and over and over.  I think it mattered more when we were all on the hook for 15.00 a month, but even without real money riding on it, I'd still prefer MY gameplay not negatively impact the enjoyment of others, and I would hope they offer me the same consideration.

But a team wipe is simply a reason to laugh, not 'negatively impacting' gameplay...IMO.

Money or no money, it is a game to have Fun and Play, not be subjected to the attitudes many players love to through around about 'playing properly'.

I go by the old saying about the fact you can know someone for years, but you really learn about peoples true personalities by playing games with them...

 

IMO, if someone gets upset by another player 'clicking the wrong things' or a 'bad build', then the player that allows themselves to get upset over it has the problem.

I try to remember when playing that everyone is just a person trying to have some fun, not someone looking how to be told how to play or that they are doing it wrong.

Someone who, IMO, is so full of anger, angst, hate, whatever, to the degree they are 'impacted' because some other player in a video game was not perfect enough for them is the one with the problem and perhaps should consider changing hobbies or just taking a break.

But what do I know, I am just a cranky old geek that thinks we should clap back at meanies, not let them run all over us...

[TheSpiritFox]

I feel like the complaining about people not knowing how to play their toons... they wouldn't have known how to play at the low levels. Is it just the subversion of your expectation that people know what they're doing that upsets you? Why is that worthy of changing anything? I feel like the real issue is you don't want to be the one someone learns on or who teaches someone how to use their character. You don't want someone else's inexperience to affect you, you want it to be learned solo or on someone else's time. 

Yeah I can't support nerfing the AH because you resent being a learning experience. This game has replay value in part because of how well I can fund alts with a solidly built purpled out farmer. My rad/fire is there. I'm sitting on a little over a billion influence across all my characters and haven't farmed in days because I haven't got anything leveled up enough to kit out, but you can bet I will. I do this in large part because my goal is to perfect my build before I start adding incarnates. So I'm working up my TW/bio brute and I'm figuring out how I want to build him at 50 and when the time comes I'll have him fully kitted out so that when I step foot in your BAF I'm useful out the box before I even get my alpha level shift. I'm working my way through the trader badges on two characters doing this, all of that is stuff other people get to buy and use. 

Purples aren't seeded on the market. If we want sets, we've got to put them up ourselves. Farmers power that economy and generally sell more purples than they keep. All of that is market activity that people are trying to nerf. All you're gonna do is force us to get creative again, invalidate a ton of builds people have already spent time and energy on, and piss off the population of the server that keeps everyone in recipes.