Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019

[Replacement]

@golstat2003

Because it's a single target, so it would never threaten the role of dedicated tanks, yet would allow a Scrapper to be able to come to a tank's rescue by sharing some of their own durability.

 

I'd take a reduced duration to get it. Lots of theoretical ways to tune it, too. Such as a separate "target lock" debuff that gets duration-resisted, so that AVs barely glance at a scrapper.

 

I understand this is likely a minority opinion.

 

EDIT: Didn't some of the late tanker proliferations (like war mace) keep taunt when they went to scrapper instead of getting a single target version? Silly, if so, but something like my proposition to make the more focused Confronts offer something similar on the utility spectrum would be nice.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Replacement

[Myrmidon]

14 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

That is the reason some of the auras have them, although it’s arguable they ever need the full benefit of a saturated empowering aura.

 

And this is the reason they should not have them. In a “fair” world, the scrapper should not have that easy of a time herding foes and optimizing AoE on their own. And they are not meant to hold aggro from multiple foes. 

 

 

So, this would mean reconfiguring the aggro auras for Scrappers into either their Sentinels or Stalkers equivalents?

[golstat2003]

8 minutes ago, StratoNexus said:

Because as the off-tank in the group, you need a way to take some of the aggro off the main tank sometimes? In the BAF there is even an enemy mechanic that strongly encourages rotating aggro, although in that case I would hope the higher damage scrappers deal would allow the taunt effect to work pretty well. It has been many years, but I seem to remember my Kat/Invun scrapper getting sequestered often enough.

 

IIRC, taunt magnifies the "damage felt" on aggro lists. So if a scrapper is seriously outdamaging a Tanker (as one would expect they should be), using Confront should pull the aggro in most cases. That said, if you are trying to pull an enemy off a Tanker that you have not been hitting (which is a common enough desire as an off-tank), that will likely not work so well.

Interesting . . . in the BAFs I've done since this game has come back (I'd count about 50+) I've never noticed that called out as a tactic for any scrapper, or anyone. It's usually just pull Siege and Nightstar at appropriate times and the entire League goes to town. Usually there are enough folks beating on them that if one of the main targets get sequestered by Siege/Nightstar, they can dip out and the beatdown can still continue. For the BAF the main thing usually is just watching out that both die nearly at the same time in that last stage. But that just pure full on League damage. The adds that come with both over specific time periods we just ignore or they get mauled by splash damage. . . . and that's probably because enough of the League members by now aren't new incarnates that makes that possible.

 

But I can see how it can be used in other situations.

Edited October 23, 2019 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

8 minutes ago, Replacement said:

@golstat2003

Because it's a single target, so it would never threaten the role of dedicated tanks, yet would allow a Scrapper to be able to come to a tank's rescue by sharing some of their own durability.

 

I'd take a reduced duration to get it. Lots of theoretical ways to tune it, too. Such as a separate "target lock" debuff that gets duration-resisted, so that AVs barely glance at a scrapper.

 

I understand this is likely a minority opinion.

Might be a good idea if it's reduced. And I can see uses in the situation you laid out. . . I've just never been on a team where it matters with all the incarnate powers flying around. (Hint: I just don't play on low level teams anymore 😜).

[StratoNexus]

The scrapper aside has made me think of one unforeseen consequence of the new Gauntlet aggro mechanic.

 

It will be a bit harder to shed aggro while staying partially engaged. I know it is anathema to think of a Tanker shedding aggro in CoH, but aggro management is not just about getting it, but also managing your survivability while having it. A great tank knows it is better to lose aggro for a few seconds and survive to get it back, rather than die because you have too much (not every Tanker IOs to undying levels and even then +3 vengeanced Rularuu can hurt many "unkillable" folks, although tanks with RotP might also be an exception).

 

You used to be able to move to a spawn's edge and use smaller attacks and that often would allow some aggro to shed. Now the small attacks, will generate threat just as well as larger attacks, so that technique is no longer possible. This is not a huge concern and I think the benefits of the change outweigh this slight drawback.

[Replacement]

32 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

So, this would mean reconfiguring the aggro auras for Scrappers into either their Sentinels or Stalkers equivalents?

I hope not! At least not for all of them...

[Captain Powerhouse]

I don’t have any plans to change any existing scrapper auras, but that goes both ways: none will get more taunting, and any new armor won’t get taunt in the scrapper auras.

[Seigmoraig]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I don’t have any plans to change any existing scrapper auras, but that goes both ways: none will get more taunting, and any new armor won’t get taunt in the scrapper auras.

Sick, new armor sets !

Edited October 23, 2019 by Seigmoraig

[csr]

14 hours ago, macskull said:

Energy's Entropic Aura has a taunt component.

It says it does in Mids, but in the detailed info I see no taunt effects.  But then I don't for Brutes either.  However, according to Mids Brute Entropic takes Taunt enhancements while Scrapper Entropic does not.  Maybe it's another one of those hidden abilities on powers due to odd construction.  If so, that moves it to 6 with taunt auras and only 3 with no taunt or damage aura.

 

That also brings up the question of Ice Armor, which goes from having 2 taunt auras (Chilling Embrace and Icicles) and a taunt click (Energy Absorption) on Brutes to none on Scrappers.  If Energy gets a taunt aura to group for Energy Drain (a mere surmise as to why the taunt would still be there), then it would seem reasonable that one of Ice Armor's AoE toggles should as well.  Though I'd personally just lose the taunt auras in both sets for Scrappers and increase the radii of the click Def buffs.

[Replacement]

Even if EA doesn't have a taunt effect, it at least has an offensive component, which at least makes things follow and stick to you. Don't know how that compares though.

[csr]

11 hours ago, Vanden said:

Listing the secondaries that have or don't have taunt auras for Scrappers doesn't really prove anything one way or the other.

It was just intended as information.  Though it does in fact prove something; that a significant number of Scrappers have taunt auras - it's not just a few.

 

IMO, Captain Powerhouse's comment about Scrappers not being meant to hold aggro of multiple foes is as dated as the idea that Tankers shouldn't be damage dealers.  I think Going Rogue and either-side Stalkers pretty much bumped Scrappers out of that mold for good.

Edited October 23, 2019 by csr

[golstat2003]

6 minutes ago, csr said:

It was just intended as information.  Though it does in fact prove something; that a significant number of Scrappers have taunt auras - it's not just a few.

 

IMO, Captain Powerhouse's comment about Scrappers not being meant to hold aggro of multiple foes is as dated as the idea that Tankers shouldn't be damage dealers.  I think Going Rogue and either-side Stalkers pretty much bumped Scrappers out of that mold for good.

Really? Cause on most teams I've been on, when aggro-holding is discussed, it's usually a tanker or brute that they look to. I've not seen too man even think about scrappers when they are talking about holding aggro. Especially not in high level content. Example: Hamidon Raids on most of the servers, the taunt team is still basically tanks, unless I've really missed something.

 

EDIT: Also if a scrapper doesn't take anything to hold aggro no one bats an eye. A tank (and sometimes a brute) not taking any aggo holding powers like Taunt, and the sky is suddenly falling.

Edited October 23, 2019 by golstat2003

[Captain Citadel]

Scrappers do not need Taunt powers at all. They are not intended to soak damage, otherwise they'd have higher resistance caps. They're just not intended to be squishy, either.

[csr]

36 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Really? Cause on most teams I've been on, when aggro-holding is discussed, it's usually a tanker or brute that they look to. I've not seen too man even think about scrappers when they are talking about holding aggro. Especially not in high level content. Example: Hamidon Raids on most of the servers, the taunt team is still basically tanks, unless I've really missed something.

 

EDIT: Also if a scrapper doesn't scrapper doesn't take anything to hold aggro no one bats an eye. A tank (and sometimes a brute) not taking any aggo holding powers like Taunt, and the sky is suddenly falling.

I think you are once again only concerning yourself with large scale 50+ content.  When you run lower level content with just SG mates or quick makeshift teams that have less than 8 members, then Scrappers are often used to "tank".   Run some PUG Summer Blockbusters and see what goes on in the God Champion fight - I've had to tank the AV+EBs in each of the last three runs I've done on Scrappers.  Though to be fair, that's an unusual situation and most of the "tanking" on Scrappers simply involves taking the alpha, not holding aggro of multiple foes for any length of time.  It is nice that some Scrappers can do the latter however, since in the situations I refer to you can't count on having a Tank AT present.

 

And the only reason that you don't see more Scrappers in taunt roles at Hami raids is that the one-target taunt power is so low in value that very few Scrappers take it.  Given that it is a class-wide power choice, I suspect it may be the least chosen power as a percentage of opportunities in the game.

Edited October 23, 2019 by csr
Edited for clarity

[StratoNexus]

4 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Really? Cause on most teams I've been on, when aggro-holding is discussed, it's usually a tanker or brute that they look to. I've not seen too man even think about scrappers when they are talking about holding aggro. Especially not in high level content. Example: Hamidon Raids on most of the servers, the taunt team is still basically tanks, unless I've really missed something.

I too have experienced the same. However, I still think it is fine for a scrapper to be the main tank on a team and I remember that in the past they frequently were. This was, of course, from a time when a large number of people only had scrappers as an option for a high damage tank. There had been a lot of legacy "scrapper as tank" experience back then.

 

In this new era, it is true that a lot of that has been taken up by brutes instead and that makes a lot of sense, considering that most brute builds are better at aggro control than most scrapper builds on top of greater survivability.

 

I will say, I am not a fan of the idea that scrappers will not get taunt auras in the future. I am not opposed to scrappers with no taunt auras. I am opposed to the idea that they should never get new armor sets that include one. It is certainly reasonable to carefully consider each new armor set and to conclude that the scrapper version should be created without a taunt aura. However, I think it should be possible to also conclude that some new scrapper armor sets would work well by including a taunt aura.

[golstat2003]

33 minutes ago, csr said:

I think you are once again only concerning yourself with large scale 50+ content.  When you run lower level content with just SG mates or quick makeshift teams that have less than 8 members, then Scrappers are often used to "tank".   Run some PUG Summer Blockbusters and see what goes on in the God Champion fight - I've had to tank the AV+EBs in each of the last three runs I've done on Scrappers.  Though to be fair, that's an unusual situation and most of the "tanking" on Scrappers simply involves taking the alpha, not holding aggro of multiple foes for any length of time.  It is nice that some Scrappers can do the latter however, since in the situations I refer to you can't count on having a Tank AT present.

 

And the only reason that you don't see more Scrappers in taunt roles at Hami raids is that the one-target taunt power is so low in value that very few Scrappers take it.  Given that it is a class-wide power choice, I suspect it may be the least chosen power as a percentage of opportunities in the game.

Makes sense. 🙂

[golstat2003]

10 minutes ago, StratoNexus said:

I too have experienced the same. However, I still think it is fine for a scrapper to be the main tank on a team and I remember that in the past they frequently were. This was, of course, from a time when a large number of people only had scrappers as an option for a high damage tank. There had been a lot of legacy "scrapper as tank" experience back then.

 

In this new era, it is true that a lot of that has been taken up by brutes instead and that makes a lot of sense, considering that most brute builds are better at aggro control than most scrapper builds on top of greater survivability.

 

I will say, I am not a fan of the idea that scrappers will not get taunt auras in the future. I am not opposed to scrappers with no taunt auras. I am opposed to the idea that they should never get new armor sets that include one. It is certainly reasonable to carefully consider each new armor set and to conclude that the scrapper version should be created without a taunt aura. However, I think it should be possible to also conclude that some new scrapper armor sets would work well by including a taunt aura.

I think it's going to become very, very messy in the long run if you have certain sets in the Scrapper AT without taunt auras and some with. New armor sets should definitely include them where possible. But maybe CP has a technical reason for being against that.

[Seigmoraig]

57 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Scrappers do not need Taunt powers at all. They are not intended to soak damage, otherwise they'd have higher resistance caps. They're just not intended to be squishy, either.

Scrappers that have damage auras totally do need the taunt aura though, or else nobody would turn the damage auras on because the mobs would constantly run out of it !

[Vanden]

51 minutes ago, Seigmoraig said:

Scrappers that have damage auras totally do need the taunt aura though, or else nobody would turn the damage auras on because the mobs would constantly run out of it !

Why would enemies run out of them? There’s no fear component to the damage auras. I know from experience that enemies don’t run out of Scrapper damage auras.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Vanden

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I don’t have any plans to change any existing scrapper auras, but that goes both ways: none will get more taunting, and any new armor won’t get taunt in the scrapper auras.

I find this interesting, since over in Scrapper Subform land many actively recomend against using secondaries without taunt auras.  

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

I find it funny to think the caps on Scrappers mean they can't take aggro....

 

Back in I8 an invul tanker had less survivability than many scrapper builds do now.

[Haijinx]

55 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

I think it's going to become very, very messy in the long run if you have certain sets in the Scrapper AT without taunt auras and some with. 

It has literally been this way since release.

 

 

[golstat2003]

10 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

It has literally been this way since release.

 

 

Right they should take the chance to improve that, but it sounds like CP is not 100% on board with that.

Edited October 23, 2019 by golstat2003

[Demon Shell]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Really? Cause on most teams I've been on, when aggro-holding is discussed, it's usually a tanker or brute that they look to. I've not seen too man even think about scrappers when they are talking about holding aggro. Especially not in high level content. Example: Hamidon Raids on most of the servers, the taunt team is still basically tanks, unless I've really missed something.

There were Scrapper yellow-mito tanks pre-incarnate. Certain armor sets are better at yellow tanking, regardless of which AT had them. They were rare because they had to have taken their auto-hit AT taunt, and when else, pre-incarnate and outside of Hamidon, would a Scrapper ever use the taunt?

 

No one cares anymore because Rebirth will turn the entire yellow team effectively invincible (provided EoE) before and during every engagement. There's no reason to take the taunt at all anymore.

 

Their auto-hit AT taunt either needs some additional effect, or it needs to be cottaged.

[golstat2003]

Thanks for the info!