Focused Feedback: Tank Updates for October 1st, 2019

[Vanden]

On 10/13/2019 at 3:47 PM, Bossk_Hogg said:

It's probably also best to balance the tank AT to get a baseline feel before balancing the individual sets.

It seems to me that at this point in the testing cycle, this has already been achieved. The changes could go live tomorrow and work great for the majority of sets, so now's the time to focus on individual sets that need specific attention, like Super Strength.

 

And on that topic, here are the changes I'd make to keep Super Strength competitive with other secondaries:

• Punch moved to tier 1 (Level 1), Jab moved to tier 2 (level 2), Knockout Blow moved to tier 5 (level 16), Rage moved to tier 6 (level 20), Hand Clap moved to tier 7 (level 28).
• Jab gives +5% Defense and +10% Resist for 3 seconds on a successful hit. (non-stacking) (Brutes get this, too)
• Foot Stomp radius increased to 12.5 feet (with the Tanker inherent, becomes 20 foot radius total. This means the inherent has to affect radii up to 12.5 feet rather than the current cutoff of 10 feet, but I don't think there are any Tanker AoEs on Pineapple now that this would actually affect.)

The reordered powers make for a smoother leveling experience, getting Super Strength Tankers their essential powers earlier. The Jab buffs mean it would actually be worth choosing as a power. Thematically, the short duration of the buff represents the character fighting more defensively, since the player must sacrifice a sizeable amount of DPS to keep up the buff. It also gives Super Strength the means to help reduce the effect of the Rage crash, if the player is willing to spend a power pick, though that might be too powerful, and the defense buffs might need to be reduced or disabled if Jab is used during the Rage crash; testing would be needed. Lastly, the Foot Stomp buff lets it keep the meaningful radius advantage it has over other Tanker PBAoEs that it currently gets on the live servers. Now, Foot Stomp isn't the only 15-foot PBAoE that Tankers have access to, that might need to be looked at with the new inherent in mind, but it's the only one I have any experience with, and thus the only one I feel comfortable going to bat for.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Vanden

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

Energy Mastery, incarnates, enhancing for end red, hoarding blue skittles...

 

Endurance management is part of the game for everyone.

Yep lots of ways to do it if you want it bad enough.

[Myrmidon]

31 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It seems to me that at this point in the testing cycle, this has already been achieved. The changes could go live tomorrow and work great for the majority of sets, so now's the time to focus on individual sets that need specific attention, like Super Strength.

 

Incidentally, here are the changes I'd make to keep Super Strength competitive with other secondaries:

• Punch moved to tier 1 (Level 1), Jab moved to tier 2 (level 2), Knockout Blow moved to tier 5 (level 16), Rage moved to tier 6 (level 20), Hand Clap moved to tier 7 (level 28).
• Jab gives +5% Defense and +10% Resist for 3 seconds on a successful hit. (non-stacking) (Brutes get this, too)
• Foot Stomp radius increased to 12.5 feet (with the Tanker inherent, becomes 20 foot radius total. This means the inherent has affect radii up to 12.5 feet rather than the current cutoff of 10 feet, but I don't think there are any Tanker AoEs on Pineapple now that this would actually affect.)

The reordered powers make for a smoother leveling experience, getting Super Strength Tankers their essential powers earlier. The Jab buffs mean it would actually be worth choosing as a power. Thematically, the short duration of the buff represents the character fighting more defensively, since the player must sacrifice a sizeable amount of DPS to keep up the buff. It also gives Super Strength the means to help reduce the effect of the Rage crash, if the player is willing to spend a power pick, though that might be too powerful, and the defense buffs might need to be reduced or disabled if Jab is used during the Rage crash; testing would be needed. Lastly, the Foot Stomp buff lets it keep the meaningful radius advantage it has over other Tanker PBAoEs that it currently gets on the live servers. Now, Foot Stomp isn't the only 15-foot PBAoE that Tankers have access to, that might need to be looked at with the new inherent in mind, but it's the only one I have any experience with, and thus the only one I feel comfortable going to bat for.

Super Strength set balance is a task for another day. Let’s get through the AT balancing first before we more to powersets.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

Super Strength set balance is a task for another day. Let’s get through the AT balancing first before we more to powersets.

Agreed. We need to focus on perfecting what is being fixed, and get it right before moving on to others. Too many changes all at once can create serious balance issues. 

[Auroxis]

20 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Agreed. We need to focus on perfecting what is being fixed, and get it right before moving on to others. Too many changes all at once can create serious balance issues. 

There are already some powerset balance changes, as the arc/radius/target cap buffs do not apply to all sets equally:

 

 

And the removal of Bruising hurts some sets more than others.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Auroxis

[slackers69]

On 10/1/2019 at 4:54 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

Tanker Updates [Experimental Changes]

 

• Tanker Damage cap lowered to 5.0
• Brute Damage cap lowered to 7.0
• The Tanker Max End has been removed.
• Lowered Tanker's -Res and +Buff Damage modifiers.
• Fixed a bug introduced last patch where Melt Armor for Tankers and Brutes was doing more -res than intended.
• Fixed a bug introduced in a previous patch where Kinetic Attack had the T1 and T2 inverted, something that generated invalid characters.

 

I hope that the lowering of damage cap for both AT do not get implemented.  I have a spines/fire aura brute and I thought I had enough to damage output so I decided to pick the T4 alpha agility to have a more balance brute.  With this change, I am now thinking I should go with T4 alpha musculature.  Will you give us the ability to change alpha abilities EASILY without having us to go through grinding for incarnate shards/threads to make the change?

[XaoGarrent]

5 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Set bonuses.

 

4 hours ago, skoryy said:

Energy Mastery, incarnates, enhancing for end red, hoarding blue skittles...

 

Endurance management is part of the game for everyone.

I don't understand why people respond if they're going repeat a canned talking point that doesn't actually address what's being said.

 

Listen, if set bonuses, epics, incarnates and consumables were an answer to anything I just said I wouldn't have said it. "Muh endurance management" likewise is a complete non statement, you could use this meme response to try and justify removing Quick Recovery from regen because "endurance management is part of the game" but you don't because you normally know better. If you're going to do this sort of thing, just don't.

Edited October 15, 2019 by XaoGarrent

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

 

I don't understand why people respond if they're going repeat a canned talking point that doesn't actually address what's being said.

 

Listen, if set bonuses, epics, incarnates and consumables were an answer to anything I just said I wouldn't have said it. "Muh endurance management" likewise is a complete non statement, you could use this meme response to try and justify removing Quick Recovery from regen because "endurance management is part of the game" but you don't because you normally know better. If you're going to do this sort of thing, just don't.

Because its that simple, I guarantee you can fix any endurance issue with set bonuses and incarnate slots.

 

Wasn't being a jerk but the solution really is that simple.

[XaoGarrent]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Because its that simple, I guarantee you can fix any endurance issue with set bonuses and incarnate slots.

 

Wasn't being a jerk but the solution really is that simple.

We're not talking about solutions to build problems, you are punching a strawman, please stop doing this.

[skoryy]

21 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

 

I don't understand why people respond if they're going repeat a canned talking point that doesn't actually address what's being said.

 

Listen, if set bonuses, epics, incarnates and consumables were an answer to anything I just said I wouldn't have said it. "Muh endurance management" likewise is a complete non statement, you could use this meme response to try and justify removing Quick Recovery from regen because "endurance management is part of the game" but you don't because you normally know better. If you're going to do this sort of thing, just don't.

Well, feel free to explain why its thematic for tankers to have easier end management than every other AT in the game.  Why not scrappers too?

 

Added: Why do you want to buff for thematic reasons, and not game balance?  What would you nerf to balance out the buff you want?

Edited October 15, 2019 by skoryy

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

We're not talking about solutions to build problems, you are punching a strawman, please stop doing this.

What the hell are you talking about?

 

There are ways to build around the issues you were describing using set bonuses and incarnate slots.

 

How is it not a solution to a build problem?

 

You mentioned a build, that had a problem - join the two together what do you have?  Build problem.

[chi1701]

On 10/2/2019 at 2:58 AM, siolfir said:

Off the top of my head as a comparison to live (feel free to add/correct these, since I didn't look up everything in the other thread and/or log on to beta for the actual numbers):

Tankers

• Melee damage modifier: 0.80 -> 0.95
• Epic pool powers correctly using ranged damage modifier, which is now 0.8 (don't remember old value; it wasn't used until Sorcery, so buff to 1 power, lack of buff for epic ranged powers); melee set ranged powers (Hurl, Hurl Boulder, Focus, Impale, Focused Burst) continue to use the melee modifier.
• Damage cap: 400% -> 500% (same as most other damage ATs, +400% in enhancements/buffs)
• AoE geometry buffs as part of inherent (does not show for in-game information, doubled arc width or +60% radius for most AoEs - but not all)
• Target cap increases on melee powersets
• Better leadership buffs (don't have exact numbers, someone else fill in please?)
• Removal of Bruising effect from T1 secondary powers

 

Brutes

• Epic ranged powers correctly using ranged damage modifier, which is now 0.75 (IIRC it was 0.55? Again... it wasn't used until Sorcery, so it's a buff to 1 power, no change to any others); melee set ranged powers (Hurl, Hurl Boulder, Focus, Impale, Focused Burst) continue to use the melee modifier.
• Damage cap: 775% -> 700%

 

Personal opinion/feedback:

• I agree with the removal of the +20 endurance; the melee modifier increase no longer makes Tankers a "low damage" AT, so the reason for providing it was suspect.
• While the patch includes a "nerf" to Brutes, it's one that I think should have been done when Fury was reduced from +3% per point to +2% per point; this means that a Brute at max Fury (+200%, which is impossible to sustain for any length of time) will have the same buff capacity (+400%, taking the Brute to +600% total) as the other "damage AT" which get +400%.
• I hope that some of the worst T1 powers that were prompting the T1/T2 swaps (*coughJabcough*) get looked at in a separate pass for all of the ATs sharing the powersets.

 

So, Tanks are getting melee damage increase and max damage increase. Im interesting to see if anyone will be able to compare these buffs to the both damage cap and melee damage modifer of for Dwarf form for Peace Bringers as well as their AOE size and max hits.

Edited October 15, 2019 by chi1701

[Myrmidon]

18 minutes ago, skoryy said:

Well, feel free to explain why its thematic for tankers to have easier end management than every other AT in the game.  Why not scrappers too?

This right here. It’s why dropping the Endurance increase was one of my very first suggestions in the old thread.

[Demon Shell]

37 minutes ago, XaoGarrent said:

snip

I have a Fire/Dark/Soul Brute that runs Darkest Night with no Accolades.

 

If you want a Dark/TW Tanker, go for it.

[StratoNexus]

Just now, skoryy said:

Well, feel free to explain why its thematic for tankers to have easier end management than every other AT in the game.  Why not scrappers too?

One of the things CoH Tankers have always had thematically is they don't defeat things fast, but they generally are inexorable, because they also don't get defeated often. However, their damage/end ratio was pretty low, so they had to watch their end bar. Often, in addition to doing less damage, they might have to attack slower or run out.

 

At that lower damage, it might have made sense to give them some better end management just to alleviate the boredom of literally standing in the middle of a spawn that cannot defeat you. but having to manage you blue bar and choose efficient attacks, rather than immediate kills. The idea being they kill slower, but last longer.

[eldriyth]

10 hours ago, XaoGarrent said:

You do realize that Brutes already have the third lowest base damage out of all the archetypes, right? Defenders are the only class with an attack set that has a lower scalar, and the only AT lower than Defenders is Controllers... Which still have some options for doing crazy damage and farming like a boss, Fire/Kin being the one everyone knows and loves.

 

Even if you were to actually drop even more nerfs on Brutes, the way you want to go about it is kinda tilting at windmills.

 

Honestly, the size of the base damage difference between Tankers and Brutes is now large enough that in party play I can legitimately see Tankers being prioritized over brutes when building a team. Tankers have always been a bedrock choice due to Gauntlet just being so damn good at its job, but now they can do respectable damage too? I really do think the "design space" between Tankers and Brutes has widened considerably now.

You do realize brutes are the #1 8/+4 killers in the game?  They are easy mode and do far too much damage for a tank type character.

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, eldriyth said:

You do realize brutes are the #1 8/+4 killers in the game?  They are easy mode and do far too much damage for a tank type character.

Yeah no. Not every brute can do that. And for the ones that do, they are built to handle a specific type of damage. You're not telling the full story here.

 

Also balance shouldn't be around farming builds.

[eldriyth]

6 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Yeah no. Not every brute can do that. And for the ones that do, they are built to handle a specific type of damage. You're not telling the full story here.

 

Also balance shouldn't be around farming builds.

AE should have a 50% penalty to all defense and resistances. The farming has pretty much killed the game. I even created a spine/fire farmer and feel like everything is obsolete in comparison. That leaves a sense of emptiness in other characters aside from a roleplay or meme value.

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, eldriyth said:

AE should have a 50% penalty to all defense and resistances. The farming has pretty much killed the game. I even created a spine/fire farmer and feel like everything is obsolete in comparison. That leaves a sense of emptiness in other characters aside from a roleplay or meme value.

I wouldn't overly obsess about what other folks are doing. Play the game and enjoy yourself.

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, eldriyth said:

AE should have a 50% penalty to all defense and resistances. The farming has pretty much killed the game. I even created a spine/fire farmer and feel like everything is obsolete in comparison. That leaves a sense of emptiness in other characters aside from a roleplay or meme value.

I rarely see spines/fire brutes on mission teams and TFs

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, eldriyth said:

AE should have a 50% penalty to all defense and resistances. The farming has pretty much killed the game. I even created a spine/fire farmer and feel like everything is obsolete in comparison. That leaves a sense of emptiness in other characters aside from a roleplay or meme value.

1. No, it hasn't.

 

2. Then go run it in a S/L farm your others will not feel obsolete then.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I rarely see spines/fire brutes on mission teams and TFs

Unless they have 2 builds the farm build doesn't cut it in normal mission play.

[Vanden]

5 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Super Strength set balance is a task for another day. Let’s get through the AT balancing first before we more to powersets.

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Agreed. We need to focus on perfecting what is being fixed, and get it right before moving on to others. Too many changes all at once can create serious balance issues. 

Like I said, I feel like we're already there with the general Tanker changes.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Vanden

[Replacement]

6 hours ago, slackers69 said:

I hope that the lowering of damage cap for both AT do not get implemented.  I have a spines/fire aura brute and I thought I had enough to damage output so I decided to pick the T4 alpha agility to have a more balance brute.  With this change, I am now thinking I should go with T4 alpha musculature.  Will you give us the ability to change alpha abilities EASILY without having us to go through grinding for incarnate shards/threads to make the change?

Considering that's damage cap, and not a huge ding anyway, you are almost guaranteed not to notice.

[Myrmidon]

3 hours ago, Vanden said:

Like I said, I feel like we're already there with the general Tanker changes.

We are there when the patch goes live and not before, however, I’m with you on that one.