Blaster Secondaries: Why?

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Rikmach said:

Now, you might guess, this didn't work out too well.  Blasters back then and now didn't operate well in Melee where everything hits harder.  If you could imagine, Blasters faceplanted even more back then than they did in live, because they had an entire half of their archetype urging them to do something that didn't work great for them.

The original version of Defiance didn't help matters any - because it encouraged Blasters to get in close and operate right at the red line.

[Haijinx]

Some of the best melee attacks in the game are in blaster secondaries.  

 

As well as some pretty decent control effects. 

 

And the sustain powers are pretty impressive on a per power basis.

 

[quixoteprog]

11 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

Blaster is the epitome of 'the best defense is a good offense'.  They are primarily damage.  They are squishy as hell and that's where your strategy and being a good player comes in.  Someone above said it right...kill faster.  Blasters are the 'hold my beer, watch this' AT.  So are scrappers.  You just gotta revel in the joy of damage.

Kill faster?  Don't scrappers actually do MORE damage than blasters? They have to get in melee to do it, fine, but they do about the same damage but they have built in defenses. Sure blasters can get tough and weave but so can scrappers. And they stack with the defenses in their secondary.

 

As for there being some, rare instances of blaster secondaries where they get access to control, fine. I am talking about the majority of secondaries that are loaded with melee attacks. Darkness, electric and energy manipulation all have four melee attacks. Ice only has three, fire has one. this would be like changing invulnerability and lightning reflexes so that half of the powers knocked things back out of melee range. Melee classes would be like WTF?

 

Then, when they rightfully complained about it someone says, "well you should have taken another secondary". Or, better says, "You just need to be better at the game." Or, "those attacks would be REALLY useful in a situation where <rare and specific situation that a scrapper would rightly avoid it he were good at being a scrapper>" There ARE good blaster secondaries, sure, that's fine, but why have ANY that not only are bad, but don't make any sense?

[Nemu]

7 minutes ago, quixoteprog said:

Kill faster?  Don't scrappers actually do MORE damage than blasters? They have to get in melee to do it, fine, but they do about the same damage but they have built in defenses. Sure blasters can get tough and weave but so can scrappers. And they stack with the defenses in their secondary.

 

As for there being some, rare instances of blaster secondaries where they get access to control, fine. I am talking about the majority of secondaries that are loaded with melee attacks. Darkness, electric and energy manipulation all have four melee attacks. Ice only has three, fire has one. this would be like changing invulnerability and lightning reflexes so that half of the powers knocked things back out of melee range. Melee classes would be like WTF?

 

Then, when they rightfully complained about it someone says, "well you should have taken another secondary". Or, better says, "You just need to be better at the game." Or, "those attacks would be REALLY useful in a situation where <rare and specific situation that a scrapper would rightly avoid it he were good at being a scrapper>" There ARE good blaster secondaries, sure, that's fine, but why have ANY that not only are bad, but don't make any sense?

Watch the video I posted earlier and then contemplate your claims. You really do need to L2P.

[quixoteprog]

2 minutes ago, Nemu said:

Watch the video I posted earlier and then contemplate your claims. You really do need to L2P.

L2Read.

 

The argument is not how difficult it is to be a blaster. It is easy. The whole game is easy. Especially when you are decked out with incarnate powers and set bonuses and a level shift fighting council or 5th column. No one needs to L2P. If you can push a button you know all you need to know.

 

The conversation is about what makes sense. Melee powers on a blaster don't make sense.

[Procellus]

16 minutes ago, quixoteprog said:

Then, when they rightfully complained about it someone says, "well you should have taken another secondary". Or, better says, "You just need to be better at the game." Or, "those attacks would be REALLY useful in a situation where <rare and specific situation that a scrapper would rightly avoid it he were good at being a scrapper>" There ARE good blaster secondaries, sure, that's fine, but why have ANY that not only are bad, but don't make any sense?

This is exactly correct.

 

Citing a few instances where secondaries are super helpful does not negate quixoteprog's and my arguments.

 

The typical method of determining whether or not something was a success is if the intent was met. What is the intent of the blaster secondaries? Support? At best you can only support yourself with a few powers. More damage? Damage that comes at a cost of putting yourself into a range where you give up the main strength of your primary. Citing a couple neat little powers only strengthens my argument as a few stand-outs, that require certain conditions be met,  do not mean that that the entire system as a whole is working.

[Nemu]

So you make the claim that /elec sucks because it has 4 melee attacks and doesn't make sense to you and I post proof that it can work. And then you tell me the game is easy and you just need to push a button. If it's so easy why complain? I can also show you how I obliterate BP, IDF, Carnies, Malta, etc but the point is that blasters have a higher learning curve and it does take a little bit of skill to play them, but they can work. All I see if a bunch of people crying about how blaster secondary sucks to the entire world and trying to tell everyone else it sucks. I gave you proof that it can work. What proof do you have that it absolutely does not work?

 

59 minutes ago, Procellus said:

Damage that comes at a cost of putting yourself into a range where you give up the main strength of your primary. 

And this makes me laugh, you know I can use my ranged power in melee range too right? and I can joust my melee so that I'm not in melee when the animation finishes. I give up nothing. 

 

You seem to think blasters are all about ranged damage, I see blasters as all about damage, period. Blasters have more options than most other ATs in how and where they can deal damage and I think it's fair to say that those that are successful in leveraging all the powers in their arsenal will do more damage than those who don't. I doubt either of you play like I do, and that's fine if you can't do it. It's fine if you build your blaster and deprive yourself of melee options, if it works for you great! But denouncing whole power sets because they don't fit your play style and telling other people it sucks is just plain ignorant.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Nemu

[Haijinx]

If blasters don't want their secondaries, I'd love to take some of them for scrapper primaries.  K thanks.  

 

 

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, quixoteprog said:

L2Read.

 

The argument is not how difficult it is to be a blaster. It is easy. The whole game is easy. Especially when you are decked out with incarnate powers and set bonuses and a level shift fighting council or 5th column. No one needs to L2P. If you can push a button you know all you need to know.

 

The conversation is about what makes sense. Melee powers on a blaster don't make sense.

They absolutely make sense. If you don't like them, don't use them. 

[Demon Shell]

1 hour ago, quixoteprog said:

Kill faster?  Don't scrappers actually do MORE damage than blasters?

Not to a group. Between Aim and Build Up probably not in burst either. And even in cases where they can, that's comparing average Scrapper ST (because your attack might not crit) versus Blaster AoE.

 

Sustained ST I believe Scrappers are the winner over every AT. But that's why a Blaster's melee attacks are in their secondary and not their primary. Their primary job is to blow up the mob, their secondary job is to finish what's left, and melee attacks do that faster than ranged.

 

And, with the i24 patch that we never got on Live, Blasters are more survivable than they used to be. Every single secondary has either a refreshing absorption shield, a sustained enhanced regen, or a heal (although /Dark has the worst of that with their missable non-stacking ST regen/rec).

 

And something I feel isn't brought up often enough, that's in addition to some form of enhanced endurance sustain, which results in either an easier time running toggles, or less focus on end redux and more on damage/recharge. My /Martial Blaster has more rec than my Will/ Tanker (by no small amount either, it's like .6/s). And my Tanker has Physical Perfection on top of Quick Recovery.

[oedipus_tex]

Blasters struggled heavily on live because i24 never got posted, but they are a very good AT on Homecoming. The secondary is a big part of that, due to the sustains.

 

They do tend to have "too many" attacks in the sense that if you took all of them you'd have redundancies. In practice this means they are one of the only ATs with options on which attacks they want. Many other ATs struggle to fit Punch/Tough/Weave into their builds but for Blasters its a given, and they don't do worse for it. It's just that their incredible sustain abilities is all neatly packaged in a single power pick.

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, quixoteprog said:

Kill faster?  Don't scrappers actually do MORE damage than blasters? They have to get in melee to do it, fine, but they do about the same damage but they have built in defenses. Sure blasters can get tough and weave but so can scrappers. And they stack with the defenses in their secondary.

 

Not really - ST a Blaster often doesn't have to move to start doing damage, and many secondaries melee attacks are stronger than Scrappers.  Burn one Boss down and then shoot the next one .. close to Melee when you want to.  Scrappers need to close.  So over time, over the course of a Mission, in the dynamic sense, the Blaster will often do more ST damage.  

 

Then when you add in AOE, its no contest.  

 

Against an AV or a Pylon? Sure the Scrapper can do More.   

 

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

It's just that their incredible sustain abilities is all neatly packaged in a single power pick.

QFT.  Some of the best single powers out there.  

 

 

[quixoteprog]

13 hours ago, Nemu said:

So you make the claim that /elec sucks because it has 4 melee attacks and doesn't make sense to you and I post proof that it can work. And then you tell me the game is easy and you just need to push a button. If it's so easy why complain? I can also show you how I obliterate BP, IDF, Carnies, Malta, etc but the point is that blasters have a higher learning curve and it does take a little bit of skill to play them, but they can work. All I see if a bunch of people crying about how blaster secondary sucks to the entire world and trying to tell everyone else it sucks. I gave you proof that it can work. What proof do you have that it absolutely does not work?

 

Sigh, I did not say /elec suck. Not because of how many melee attacks it has or for any other reason. I said the number of melee attacks don't make sense. Not as much as having some kind of defensive power or any number of other options.

 

As I said, the game is easy. Blaster are marginally more difficult that some other, require more tacticks.  But they are easy. You showed a video of you decked out with incarnate powers and IO set bonuses to get the defenses that give you the defenses that should be there in place of the melee attacks.

 

If your REALLY want to demonstrate your l33t sk3\/\/z then try this. The video you posted does nothing to demonstrate the comparison of one AT vs another. It only show how easy the game is with a tweked out character. A scrapper could probably do the same thing faster.

 

On test, make a 40ish level scrapper. set up with vanilla IOs. Run a mission against Carnies or Malta, set to the highest difficulty you can do without using a single inspiration to survive. +4/x8? Awesome

 

Now, make a similarly equipped blaster. Run him through that same mission. Using your awesome knowledge and skill of the game to show the world how much better you are than everyone else. I won't even complain about you using "jousting" even though I believe that was technically an exploit that the devs on live tried to stop. If it is possible do it.

 

That way you will demonstrate that this is just people who don't know how 2P complaining. That it is just a "learning curve" as you put it. Skill can overcome the design of the AT. Why no inspiration? Mainly to make the math easier. If you use some on the scrapper you should be limited to that same number and type on the blaster. We want to compare apples to apples after all and you contention is that it is just a "learning curve".

Edited October 25, 2019 by quixoteprog

[StratoNexus]

52 minutes ago, quixoteprog said:

Sigh, I did not say /elec suck. Not because of how many melee attacks it has or for any other reason. I said the number of melee attacks don't make sense. Not as much as having some kind of defensive power or any number of other options.

 

As I said, the game is easy. Blaster are marginally more difficult that some other, require more tacticks.  But they are easy. You showed a video of you decked out with incarnate powers and IO set bonuses to get the defenses that give you the defenses that should be there in place of the melee attacks.

 

On test, make a 40ish level scrapper. set up with vanilla IOs. Run a mission against Carnies or Malta, set to the highest difficulty you can do without using a single inspiration to survive. +4/x8? Awesome

They made an entire AT now dedicated to Ranged attacks with defense. It is not the Blaster.

 

Asking why blasters have melee attacks instead of xxxx, is like asking why do scrappers just get mostly copies of tanker armor sets instead of a mix of armor and buff/debuff? The blaster AT was designed with melee attacks and that is a reason so many of us love the AT. It was also designed as a team AT, needing allies to be able to leverage those attacks well. You can now use set IOs and they gave blasters better survivability in I24, making the AT much less team dependent than in the past, but they are still basically a more team-friendly AT.

 

It is slightly disingenuous to ask a blaster to be able to solo as well as what was created as the most solo friendly AT. Also, I would love to see a level 42 scrapper with level 45 common IOs solo carnies and malta at +4/x8 without inspires. I am pretty sure they would drop in seconds, outside of a few tier 9 abilities (and maybe even while they were active). Maybe SR could last a bit.

[MunkiLord]

I feel like the Carnies/Malta scenario isn't a very good one. Almost every build is going to struggle in such a scenario regardless of AT. 

[Nemu]

Why am I and why should I be comparing blasters performance to scrappers? That's your imposition, not mine. I'm just saying that melee skills work on a blaster. So what if I use IOs? Scrappers can use IOs too and most of them do so they can softcap defense/hardcap resistances, so do controllers, tanks, defenders, and every other AT. I started investing in IO sets as I was leveling and Jezebel was my first character so I wasn't rich. By level 30 I had respectable defense through CJ, Weave, Maneuvers, and a few cheap sets that granted S/L def.  And there are alts with sugar daddies that bankroll attuned sets as they level. Leveling with set bonuses is a thing for some people.

 

Not using inspirations? Part of the learning curve is learning how to combine and use inspirations, especially without set bonuses, especially for those ATs lacking mez protection.

 

I showed techniques to maximize melee effectiveness, I can share builds that improve blaster survival, like I can share builds that improve survival for any other AT. I did say that the style is not for everyone. Your rejection of my techniques and approach to the game is not a sign that I'm elite, rather a sign that you are stubborn and un-receptive to any evidence contrary to how you think the game should be played and be designed.

 

I know, it's the internet, we all think we are right. Let's nip this argument in the bud and let's just agree to disagree.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Nemu

[Tacopotamus]

There should absolutely be no argument saying a blaster’s melee powers don’t make sense.

 

A blaster is a killing machine.  A gun.  A bazooka.  A knife.  A sword.  An atomic bomb.  It kills (arrests).  Plain and simple.  To give it anything else would change it’s purpose entirely.  And even at that...it’s so easy to get defenses soft capped thanks to IO’s and incarnates.  Not to mention the surplus of IO usage really helps with a variety of procs and set bonuses with the blaster’s secondaries.

[quixoteprog]

1 hour ago, Nemu said:

Why am I and why should I be comparing blasters performance to scrappers? That's your imposition, not mine. I'm just saying that melee skills work on a blaster. So what if I use IOs? Scrappers can use IOs too and most of them do so they can softcap defense/hardcap resistances, so do controllers, tanks, defenders, and every other AT. I started investing in IO sets as I was leveling and Jezebel was my first character so I wasn't rich. By level 30 I had respectable defense through CJ, Weave, Maneuvers, and a few cheap sets that granted S/L def.  And there are alts with sugar daddies that bankroll attuned sets as they level. Leveling with set bonuses is a thing for some people.

 

Not using inspirations? Part of the learning curve is learning how to combine and use inspirations, especially without set bonuses, especially for those ATs lacking mez protection.

 

I showed techniques to maximize melee effectiveness, I can share builds that improve blaster survival, like I can share builds that improve survival for any other AT. I did say that the style is not for everyone. Your rejection of my techniques and approach to the game is not a sign that I'm elite, rather a sign that you are stubborn and un-receptive to any evidence contrary to how you think the game should be played and be designed.

 

I know, it's the internet, we all think we are right. Let's nip this argument in the bud and let's just agree to disagree.

You can't do it can you  8-]  I understand.

 

As to your excuse. The cool thing about this challenge is you DON'T have to compare scrappers and blaster. Pick another AT. I chose Scrappers because they were the ones that most closely resemble blasters in that they deal damage at a similar rate.

 

As to not using inspirations you should READ MY POST. I said I only exclude them to make it simple. If you can use the same insp. on the blaster run as the scrapper (or whatever other AT you choose to use that is a damage dealer) then by all means feel free to include them. It was only to keep the math simple. We are trying to demonstrate how it is just my lack of knowing how2P. The whole purpose of the exercise I proposed was to find a way to demonstrate how each AT is equitable, not necessarily the same, because that is why you have different types. But they should all be able to handle the same level of difficulty, mezzes and holds and heavy hitting melee at about the same speed. With the right technique. That should be possible, right?

 

As to being unreceptive. If you have another process for eliminating the other factors in different ATs to show how equitable they are I am ALLLL EARS.

 

I have given you a chance to prove how worthwhile your "technique" is. How it triumphs. I am WIIIIIDE open. Show me how well the play technique works by eliminating the other factors. You cannot, so you deflect. It IS the internet, and so rather than put up you "agreed to disagree" which is to give up. I say again.  Show me, if you can.

 

[quixoteprog]

2 hours ago, 3333053222 said:

Except... That's not the reality of what exists. Honestly, the Blaster will likely do better once properly IO'd and incarnated than the Scrapper would be but there's lots of variation between powersets. A Martial Arts/Regen Scrapper will of course not deal anywhere near the killspeed of a Rad/Rad Scrapper. A properly geared Archery/TA or Fire/Mental Blaster will in many cases win this contest. 

 

Scrappers really don't do the "same thing only faster" with the way the game is. A nuke is a nuke. Snipes do not require you to get into melee or chase down an enemy. 

 

Also, I have to disagree with the point about melee attacks not complimenting the primaries, there's a lot of primaries that are weaker in ST damage, the secondary helps to "boost" a lot of sets.

My challenge is not meant to reflect reality. It is only a controlled experiment to demonstrate the point that melee attacks are probably the LEAST usefull type of power you could give a blaster in his secondary. Sure they are useful in that they can be used. Just not as good as almost anything else.

 

And the only reason I don't say pimp out both characters with the best stuff and incarnate powers then do the same is that both pimped out characters will likely walk through the same content since the game, at its heart, it pretty easy. You have to ramp up the difficulty pretty high to pose any kind of challenge to such characters.

 

And the argument I am making is not that blaster have it so much harder than scrapper. I find runner much more annoying in a melee character too. Not that they are ever a real problem since I have never seen one alert any other mob, which by the way would probably be a cool update.

 

As to some of the melee attacks boosting a blaster damage., while that is likely true, there are any number of other powers that could do that as well, like another better ranged attack. Or a control power.  It is that melee powers operate on the premise that the ranged damage dealer has failed to keep the target at range.

[StratoNexus]

50 minutes ago, quixoteprog said:

My challenge is not meant to reflect reality. It is only a controlled experiment to demonstrate the point that melee attacks are probably the LEAST usefull type of power you could give a blaster in his secondary. Sure they are useful in that they can be used. Just not as good as almost anything else.

Reality is you should be testing them against spawns at a more reasonable level of difficulty than +4/x8, because most folks play the game at significantly lower difficulty than that. Blasters do not need to solo the same difficulty as scrappers to be a good AT as designed. I was always fond of Unyielding difficulty back in the day, +1/x2 is what that would be. Before I get well IOd, I typically run at +1/x2 to 5 on most characters, depending on power choices. A few single target focused characters might do +2/x2 or 3 instead. Once I start getting a decent amount of IOs, (which is usually in my 30s, although some characters have leveled a bit faster and did not really get good IO sets until my 40s and end game), I might up the difficulty to +2/x5 or 6.

 

The game is not balanced around +4/x8 content solo and it is unlikely it ever will be.

 

And realistically, you are still saying griddles are designed wrong because you want a pot. Pots exist. Griddles exist. Griddles do not need to be pots.

[EmmySky]

2 hours ago, 3333053222 said:

Then what are they supposed to get as a secondary?

 

Support sets? We already have Defenders/Corruptors.

A defense set? We have Sentinels.

A control set? Dominators exist.

 

What would be the secondary? Honestly, I think the way they are now, is the best use for this AT. It gives great survivability, good attacks that are different and substantiate the claim that states "blasters do ranged damage as well as melee." 

I never really got into blasters on live...I was a support toon expert. Now, I love my DP/martial combat blaster.  Where else can I get 'pew pew pew kick you face' powers?  Defeat enemies fast enough and you don't need those sissy shields 😁

[Omega-202]

8 hours ago, quixoteprog said:

On test, make a 40ish level scrapper. set up with vanilla IOs. Run a mission against Carnies or Malta, set to the highest difficulty you can do without using a single inspiration to survive. +4/x8? Awesome

 

Now, make a similarly equipped blaster. Run him through that same mission. Using your awesome knowledge and skill of the game to show the world how much better you are than everyone else. I won't even complain about you using "jousting" even though I believe that was technically an exploit that the devs on live tried to stop. If it is possible do it. 

Why are you comparing "the solo specialist AT" to the "Glass Cannon AoE specialist AT" in a solo based metric test?  

 

You sound like a complete idiot who has lost the thread of the conversation.  Of couse the Scrappers going to win here.  You're racing a sports car and a jeep on flat terrain.  Of course the sports car will win.  But change the scenario, put the Blaster in a large team situation where their AoE matters or where the Scrapper's defenses stop mattering when they're both IOd out at the defense cap, and the Blaster will put the Scrapper to shame. 

[Nemu]

There are a good number of people here responding that echo the same sentiment that I have that melee works. I do feel that we need to speak up when people post stuff like this as not to turn new blasters and new players away from all the valid ways to play blasters. Learning to leverage melee takes a little work, it has a higher learning curve, and it may not be for everyone and that's ok. But everyone should be accorded an opportunity to try it before they decide it's not their style. And if they do want to try it we should teach them how to succeed.

 

So to answer the question why blaster secondaries?

 

So we can revel in destruction, woe is anyone that falls under our targeting cursor because they are going to have a very bad day. So we can do stuff like this:

 

https://youtu.be/7iCKNWicy8Q

 

 

[biostem]

1 hour ago, EmmySky said:

I never really got into blasters on live...I was a support toon expert. Now, I love my DP/martial combat blaster.  Where else can I get 'pew pew pew kick you face' powers?  Defeat enemies fast enough and you don't need those sissy shields 😁

I'm in a similar boat;  I liked ranged attacks just fine, but I generally preferred a support secondary.  I've been leveling up an archery/tactical arrow blaster, and it's an entirely different beast.  At the very least, there *are* options for those that want to forgo the melee attacks.