Maybe something is being missed in comparison.

[DocRadio]

Since I've come back to the game my first toon is my Fire/Fire Sent. I've played him to vet level 26 and counting. He's fun to play. Not as damaging as a blaster but more durable, and of course he has status protection. For me, a fan of blasters who leveled 3 of them to 50 in the old game, status protection on a ranged toon is huge. I keep hearing people say You can just take Clarion, RuneOP and enough set inducing global recharge to cobble together pretty decent status pro. And yeah... of course you can. You get decent status protection Post level 50..... After of course sinking a ton of inf/inf into your build, and making clarion a must. My sentinel uses barrier instead. I have it maxed so that it basically provides at least some benefit for a full two minutes, and is ready to use immediately afterwards. For me, the trade off isn't worth it. Don't get me wrong, I still love blasters and I'm leveling 3 of them, but I'm not in the "why bother with sentinels when you can just build a blaster" camp. I think the Sentinel class stands on its own as a viable and fun AT. Not a huge fan of Opportunity, but I mostly ignore It anyways. Maybe I'll give a damn about it when I level another Sentinel that doesn't have the raw damage output of Fire/*.

[Rathulfr]

On HC, I started off with my OG Blaster (Energy/Energy), switched to Sentinel (I got 3 of 7 to 50+), then switched back to Blaster 3.0 (the new holy trinity: Atomic/Temporal/Tactical).

 

I think Sentinels are great, but underpowered.  I'm waiting patiently for the proposed but unscheduled revamp.  Until then, I'm playing my Energy/Temporal Blaster.

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Rathulfr

[nihilii]

Sometimes a "like" isn't enough to say "I wholeheartedly agree". As far as I'm concerned, you're right on the money, @DocRadio. Sentinels are awesome, blasters are awesome, they're awesome in different ways and I feel neither really steps on the toes of the other because of their radical differences.

 

It's not a brute vs scrapper vs tanker situation nor a corruptor vs defender situation. Sentinels have their spot, a particular window of performance no other AT can quite touch in their unique way (soldiers and widows are close, but given powerset diversity, both ATs can coexist).

[Mercurias]

Hey yeah! That’s one thing I never remember to mention in these threads. Mez protection is awesome for any AT that can swing it. I’m currently leveling a Blaster and a Corrupter, and I can abso-freaking-lutely testify to how much I miss having it when I play them.

[oldskool]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

Sentinels have their spot, a particular window of performance no other AT can quite touch in their unique way (soldiers and widows are close, but given powerset diversity, both ATs can coexist).

So I loved the entire response, but very much like what stated "like" isn't enough even for this sentence. 

There will be nothing but disappointment if one tries to do a Blaster vs Sentinel comparison.  Sentinels just don't have the AoE that Blasters have.  However, depending on a build it can get pretty close on single-target sustained damage.  Sometimes that can even exceed some Blaster builds.  A Sentinel vs Stalker/Scrapper isn't going to win on single-target even if it nips at the heels of those ATs.  A Sentinel can do significantly more AoE damage than either of them.  

Sentinels really do exist in their own bracket when it comes to what is or is not valuable to a team.  A question like "Why bring a Sentinel when you can bring a Blaster" is almost certainly going to be focused around clearing trash mobs as fast as you can since AoE is godly in CoX.  

You know what we don't ask enough of in these forums?  Why bring a Scrapper when you can bring a Sentinel to an AV fight?  Most high-end Sentinels won't exceed the single-target of most high-end Scrappers but they can get pretty close.  Furthermore, the Sentinel is going to help clear the content on the way to the AV better than most Scrappers due to those Aim + T9 nukes they can drop.  Then you have the protection from the secondary + easier times to kite while doing damage (if necessary) adding a whole new layer of survival that melee ATs don't have.  

Sentinels could use some tweaks for sure, but they aren't so bad that they have no place.  I think the AT to AT comparisons can get pretty myopic.  We can spend so much time looking at what Sentinels don't do that we lose sight of what they can do.  

[Bossk_Hogg]

One thing I don't see brought up enough is how certain sets (beam, psychic, radiation, sonic and water) have mag 3 stuns/holds on a really short cooldown, and ice and dark have pretty massive to-hit debuffs as well. 

 

Some powersets certainly need to be re-evaluated (AR/archery/dual pistols/energy) and I really want Ice to get its second hold back. A few more powers need to be re-evaluated in terms of their DPSA, particularly energy blast which basically has 3 clones from a damage standpoint. Atumbral Beam and and Psionic Strike also kinda suck. But these are issues w individual powers, not the AT as a whole.

 

Overall, sentinels arent in a bad spot. Raising their damage a bit and making opportunity better is really about all they need. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Siderous]

I think another comparison that we can look at are Dominators.  My two Dominators with permadom out damage my RAD/RAD sentinel, have status protection, have a pet, and provide support while doing it,.  Built out, their defense isn't as high, but they don't have to have that defense because their main line provides safety.  As long as I don't take the alpha, I don't die...   Also, Dominators can either be ranged or melee which gives a lot of build diversity.  

 

My Doms are Grav/Eng ranged and Dark/savage melee.

 

I think Sentinels need a good DPS buff, but also need a nitch of their own.  I hope the revamped opportunity gives sentinels something unique. 

[Pharce]

Where can a sentinel fit in on a team that clears very quick? On any defeat all mission. Any where mobs need to be cleared. Why? My sentinel can take an alpha strike while clearing half a mob. So what happens? I break from the group usually one or two follow me and we clear in 2 groups instead of one. The mission goes way faster. The main tank can protect the other group. If a blaster follows me all the faster. Just one area ive seen a benefit. There are many tactical/strategies decisions we can delve into more options. No need to say this over that but what works together in fun new ways.

[Frosticus]

23 hours ago, Siderous said:

I think another comparison that we can look at are Dominators.  My two Dominators with permadom out damage my RAD/RAD sentinel, have status protection, have a pet, and provide support while doing it,.  Built out, their defense isn't as high, but they don't have to have that defense because their main line provides safety.  As long as I don't take the alpha, I don't die...   Also, Dominators can either be ranged or melee which gives a lot of build diversity.  

 

My Doms are Grav/Eng ranged and Dark/savage melee.

 

I think Sentinels need a good DPS buff, but also need a nitch of their own.  I hope the revamped opportunity gives sentinels something unique. 

This doesn't match my experiences. Maybe for single target damage because of added pet damage and the high damage melee attacks doms have. But sentinels on avg do way more AoE damage and usually don't need to hesitate to leverage it as most can absorb a decent sized alpha. 

 

I mean there are certainly some builds that overlap between the two AT's, but imo sentinels are some of the best AoE available prior to heavily IO'd/incarnate builds due to their ability to leverage their abilities without fear.  

[biostem]

I've played several sentinel builds, and the main problems I've run into is that the secondaries kind of reduce the need you feel to keep moving and/or "kite" enemies, but at the same time, the enemy AI tends to like to run right up to you and smack you in the face, and you often end up just firing off your ranged attacks at point blank range.  In that kind of scenario, you might as well just play a melee AT who can do that better.

[drbuzzard]

This is why I find that hover sentinels are the ones I like the best. You keep clear of melee most of the time, and blast with fair amounts of impunity. Of course if you want to drop your PBAOE, you must close, but you can deal with that brief close quarters encounter. In any case, even on my floor bound sentinels, ranged is handy since you don't have to run around constantly. It's also very handy for picking out high value targets like surgeons or sappers. 

[Rathulfr]

13 hours ago, biostem said:

I've played several sentinel builds, and the main problems I've run into is that the secondaries kind of reduce the need you feel to keep moving and/or "kite" enemies, but at the same time, the enemy AI tends to like to run right up to you and smack you in the face, and you often end up just firing off your ranged attacks at point blank range.  In that kind of scenario, you might as well just play a melee AT who can do that better.

That happens regardless of AT, so you're basically saying I should just not play ranged characters at all?

[HelenCarnate]

13 hours ago, biostem said:

I've played several sentinel builds, and the main problems I've run into is that the secondaries kind of reduce the need you feel to keep moving and/or "kite" enemies, but at the same time, the enemy AI tends to like to run right up to you and smack you in the face, and you often end up just firing off your ranged attacks at point blank range.  In that kind of scenario, you might as well just play a melee AT who can do that better.

And that makes it easier to AoE them.  Also when they start getting low on HP, mobs tend to run away.  For melee this means chasing them down.  For a Sentinel that means shooting them in the back.  The less time you spend moving, the more time you can spend attacking.

[DocRadio]

2 hours ago, HelenCarnate said:

And that makes it easier to AoE them.  Also when they start getting low on HP, mobs tend to run away.  For melee this means chasing them down.  For a Sentinel that means shooting them in the back.  The less time you spend moving, the more time you can spend attacking.

Yep.... my sentinel is fire. Run on up... bunch up real tight for the fireball, fire sword circle, inferno trifecta. I don't mind at all.

[SmalltalkJava]

2 hours ago, HelenCarnate said:

Also when they start getting low on HP, mobs tend to run away.  For melee this means chasing them down.  For a Sentinel that means shooting them in the back

Yep.  The military, especially Air Forces that use bombs and rockets and missiles, has a phrase to enemies.

 

“Don't run you’ll only die tired”

[Moka]

I kind of look at it with the view that sentinels you can turn your brain off and cruise control through a mission for the most part while a blaster you generally have to pay attention to your cooldowns and such. A blaster can do most things a sentinel can, but a sentinel is less stressful to play. Sentinels may or may not be preferred for melting AVs though. 

[biostem]

5 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

That happens regardless of AT, so you're basically saying I should just not play ranged characters at all?

Not at all;  What I'm saying is that playing a character with an armor/defensive set tends to lend one to not do a lot of moving around/evasion since they can stand their ground.  Since melee basically requires this, it gels better.  While ranged certainly can do this too, a lot of the advantage of said range is lost...

[drbuzzard]

As I get another sentinel almost to 50 I think I've noticed one important really nice thing about sentinels (which may be obvious to others, but I'll comment anyway). They are a well designed AT conceptually (mind you they need a bit of a tune up to get where they ought to be as DPS AT, but conceptually they are well thought out). Almost all the primaries (a couple are duds) have been well tuned to deal with their concept as a tough, mid range damage dealer (mostly small numbers of targets). The adding of damage to control powers was a good way of doing this (and swapping out snipes for good attacks, which suits the mid range notion). Really though, the secondaries is where the Devs shined on making the sentinels. I've now played the majority of secondaries into the 40s, and many of them are simply the best versions of those power sets in the game. For example, every single one has some form of endurance support power. They can be as simple as quick recovery, something which sucks endurance out of enemies, or just a power which ups total endurance (and hence recovery). This is really quite a nice feature and allows you to just play without having to worry too much about endurance management (mind you we end up piling on defensive toggles and making trouble for ourselves anyway, but that's a self created problem). 

 

I've about finished up a elec/regen sentinel. I played regen back in the day when it was godly, and then nerf bat after nerf bat beat the every living crap out of the set till it was unrecognizable, and I won't touch again - except on a sentinel because sentinel regen is a whole different kettle of fish. On sentinels they used a combination of toggle absorb, some resistance, and a fair helping of regen to give you a lot of feel of the old regen (pre GDN), but with a ceiling on it where if you push it too far, you are meat. I find it actually a good bit of fun to play, as you can be fairly mindless about it as long as you don't push your luck too hard. You simply take damage, and small quantities are easily ignored. Current regen on other ATs is a clicking game, which I have no desire to play (yes sentinel regen has a couple of clicks, but you really don't need to use them all too much). 

 

That's just one example, but ninjitsu, super reflexes, energy aura, electric armor, fiery aura, all play quite a bit differently than their melee versions, and I'd say for the better. The secondaries are really well thought out and good examples of putting together a variety of tools to get a build to a certain level of durability where you can feel powerful, but not game breaking. 

[Rathulfr]

8 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

As I get another sentinel almost to 50 I think I've noticed one important really nice thing about sentinels (which may be obvious to others, but I'll comment anyway). They are a well designed AT conceptually (mind you they need a bit of a tune up to get where they ought to be as DPS AT, but conceptually they are well thought out). Almost all the primaries (a couple are duds) have been well tuned to deal with their concept as a tough, mid range damage dealer (mostly small numbers of targets). The adding of damage to control powers was a good way of doing this (and swapping out snipes for good attacks, which suits the mid range notion). Really though, the secondaries is where the Devs shined on making the sentinels. I've now played the majority of secondaries into the 40s, and many of them are simply the best versions of those power sets in the game. For example, every single one has some form of endurance support power. They can be as simple as quick recovery, something which sucks endurance out of enemies, or just a power which ups total endurance (and hence recovery). This is really quite a nice feature and allows you to just play without having to worry too much about endurance management (mind you we end up piling on defensive toggles and making trouble for ourselves anyway, but that's a self created problem). 

 

I've about finished up a elec/regen sentinel. I played regen back in the day when it was godly, and then nerf bat after nerf bat beat the every living crap out of the set till it was unrecognizable, and I won't touch again - except on a sentinel because sentinel regen is a whole different kettle of fish. On sentinels they used a combination of toggle absorb, some resistance, and a fair helping of regen to give you a lot of feel of the old regen (pre GDN), but with a ceiling on it where if you push it too far, you are meat. I find it actually a good bit of fun to play, as you can be fairly mindless about it as long as you don't push your luck too hard. You simply take damage, and small quantities are easily ignored. Current regen on other ATs is a clicking game, which I have no desire to play (yes sentinel regen has a couple of clicks, but you really don't need to use them all too much). 

 

That's just one example, but ninjitsu, super reflexes, energy aura, electric armor, fiery aura, all play quite a bit differently than their melee versions, and I'd say for the better. The secondaries are really well thought out and good examples of putting together a variety of tools to get a build to a certain level of durability where you can feel powerful, but not game breaking. 

 

This is spot-on.  After playing my EB/TM Blaster the last few weeks, I re-visited my EB/WP Sentinel (both are 50+3 T4), and had fun playing it again.  Sure, the DPS seemed a bit slow and tedious when compared to my Blaster, but it gets the job done.  And it's still better than leveling a non-DPS-oriented character (I've been working on a couple of low-level Controllers recently -- talk about a slog).

 

A minor buff to damage and redesigning the Inherent should be all a Sentinel needs to become my daily driver again.

 

[DocRadio]

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 9:10 AM, Moka said:

I kind of look at it with the view that sentinels you can turn your brain off and cruise control through a mission for the most part while a blaster you generally have to pay attention to your cooldowns and such. A blaster can do most things a sentinel can, but a sentinel is less stressful to play. Sentinels may or may not be preferred for melting AVs though. 

True.... but solo anything short of an AV is going out on a stretcher. Taking down a spawn with 2 EBs or several bosses is like butter.

[Siderous]

On 10/28/2019 at 7:14 PM, Frosticus said:

This doesn't match my experiences. Maybe for single target damage because of added pet damage and the high damage melee attacks doms have. But sentinels on avg do way more AoE damage and usually don't need to hesitate to leverage it as most can absorb a decent sized alpha. 

 

I mean there are certainly some builds that overlap between the two AT's, but imo sentinels are some of the best AoE available prior to heavily IO'd/incarnate builds due to their ability to leverage their abilities without fear.  

Well if you compare the numbers off the assault sets to the sentinel blasts the numbers are really close.... My two Doms do as much or more damage than my Sentinels.  50 Dark/savage Dom, 50 Grav/eng Dom, 50 Rad/Rad sent, bunch of 25 to 35 sents all shapes and sizes....

 

As for AoE, sentinel AoE is lacking.  Some do better than others.  They all have a 47 base damage aoe at 50 and with high animation times... the cones very from 60ish to low 80 base at 50.. the only good one is the T9.  Some like my Rad/rad have an extra pbaoe but it is mediocre at best and the T8 rad aoe is decent. 

 

Single target chains can be fast and decent but again other ATs do them the same or better and have other goodies.

 

Sentinels can safely and consistently put out steady damage while feeling protected.  They do have a fairly nice status effect on one of the mid attacks and at least on Rad have good secondary effects.  I do a lot of -def which is nice and is why I always trigger my pbaoe dot.

 

I really like the concept of the class but it does need something more...

[drbuzzard]

5 hours ago, Siderous said:

I really like the concept of the class but it does need something more...

I think you would be hard pressed to find someone to argue with this. Sentinels simply do too little damage for a DPS class. Their inherent is lackluster on top of that. If those two issues are resolved, I think they will be fine. I still enjoy playing them, but they really only become fun to play after you get the fast recharging t9.