Sorry not sorry

[Apparition]

9 minutes ago, Gravitus said:

So what do bots users do? All of the bots have inherent KB. Just not use that AT?

 

Slot the Sudden Acceleration KB to KD IO in all three bots.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Apparition

[Fan Mail]

Does group fly not prompt a yes or no by default?  Seems to me it should with some kind of instructions on how to change the default setting.  Then everyone wins, right?

[Gravitus]

22 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Solo, slot the KB to KD enhancer, take an AE immobilize with-KB, or simply not summoning your t1's (which do no real damage on a big team anyways). Or not complain when you get kicked when people ask you to work with the team, not against it. You should also join us in asking for a Null the Gull option to turn KB into KD for various sets.

 

I have a bots MM. I tossed the enhancer in the assault bot and don't use my t 1's on all teams. My damage skyrocketed when I got Electric Fences and could keep targets nicely clumped and in the burn patch.

 

Tier 1s actually add a significant amount of DPS. They also serve as extra targets for aggro. I think turning them off is a mistake.

 

However I would support is having null add a KD option.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Gravitus

[Twisted Toon]

17 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Slot the Sudden Acceleration KB to KD IO in all three bots.

That's not going to happen with Agent Knockback (FF/Energy Defender). Too many KB powers to mess with making them ALL KD. Besides, I make good use of AE KB, when the taunter positions the mobs correctly. Otherwise, the mess left behind is on him.

[Gravitus]

20 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Slot the Sudden Acceleration KB to KD IO in all three bots.

Except the final set bonus in all of the good IOS ATOs seems too good to skip out on. Pet auras etc.

[Clave Dark 5]

2 hours ago, Gravitus said:

The fact that null exists is really the only reason I need. If it was a power that you could literally do nothing about Id understand but it isn’t . 
 

Forgetting to go to null isn’t my problem .

 

but also I have every right to give my build every conceivable advantage, which group fly objectively does for bots.

 

Any accommodations I may make would simply be an optional courtesy and not deserving of ridicule if I opt out. 
 

For the record most people took my side on the BAF , but the fact we had to set aside 5 minutes in the group to talk about it was annoying. Go figure none of the people bitching about it where MM either . 
 

I hope people can read this and maybe not attempt to ridicule the next person who uses group fly needlessly.

Also, there is no "I" in "team." 

[Bossk_Hogg]

7 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

That's not going to happen with Agent Knockback (FF/Energy Defender). Too many KB powers to mess with making them ALL KD. Besides, I make good use of AE KB, when the taunter positions the mobs correctly. Otherwise, the mess left behind is on him.

"I grief my own team! Work extra hard to use my crappy secondary effect or suffer!"

 

No thanks. I'll stick with players who don't make the mission take twice as long. No one needs the "safety" kb offers these days lol.

[Twisted Toon]

8 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

"I grief my own team! Work extra hard to use my crappy secondary effect or suffer!"

 

No thanks. I'll stick with players who don't make the mission take twice as long. No one needs the "safety" kb offers these days lol.

The people I team with actually know how to deal with people that have KB. Unlike (from reading complaints about KB) about 75% of the people that post on the forums.

 

KB lesson #1: We let the guy that herds the mobs together (for those sweet AoEs) herd the mobs near an obstacle (not the middle of a room). That way, any KB that is done is instantly mitigated. Takes exactly as long as herding the mobs to maximize effect of AoEs. Imagine that!

 

Tactics is more than just a toggle power.

[Machariel]

Even if you "know how to deal with it" (not exactly rocket surgery), the extra positioning, communication, or whatever, that's required to get to that point, still slows the team down.  Whether that bothers you or not is a personal playstyle preference.

 

"Takes exactly as long as herding the mobs to maximize effect of AoEs." - exactly - it's almost always a waste of time, except that at least a dedicated tank can be one or two groups ahead of the rest of the team dutifully pulling spawns together.  My least favorite teams, of all kinds, are ones where the tank insists on pulling spawns together and having the other 7 people just sit on their hands while the tank plays ring around the rosy with the map.

[LiquidBandage]

2 hours ago, Gravitus said:

It might as well be the same thing . I’m not aware of people wanting group fly sometimes. Which is why Null has that feature if you think about it. It’s the devs answer to people keeping group fly to themselves . Figures there will always be entitled folks telling others how to play despite the devs best efforts.

 

Fortunately it seems that people with your view are in the minority and rightfully so.   

I like that you are trying to bend the narrative that I am somehow in the wrong.

 

I can think of a few situations where I would want Group Fly and a few where I would not want it. 

- Hamidon Raids with the classic strategy (focus targets for each Mito type). The Blue ones can be pretty high up and Group Fly makes that so much easier.

- Anytime you are playing low levels with new players and you have to traverse zones that are very vertical in design. It can be an experience to see a whole new mode of travel.

- Many of my melee characters use Combat Jumping to maneuver around to line up cones or get in close for a PBAoE. Then all of a sudden when I jump up I am flying and I have to fly back down (instead of using gravity) to line things up.

- Combats that range over a wider are than is covered by being in proximity of the Group Flier can interrupt how you try to catch up. If you don't have your own travel power active at the time, you just drop like a rock.

 

Do I want Group Fly on all the time or off all the time? Not necessarily, no. If I am around you specifically, yes, I probably want it off for 50% of my characters. You aren't approaching this situation from the right angle. What you should be doing is lobbying the Homecoming devs to add a new option to Null the Gull >> Make my travel powers only affect me and my pets. So things like Group Fly or Team Teleport only affect you and you do not have to worry about people complaining. You wouldn't have to constantly remind all of these bad players that they just simply have to go to Null and turn things off. You wouldn't have to hear their whining/crying anymore. You can live your best life with Group Fly working as you intend. 

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, Twisted Toon said:

The people I team with actually know how to deal with people that have KB. Unlike (from reading complaints about KB) about 75% of the people that post on the forums.

 

KB lesson #1: We let the guy that herds the mobs together (for those sweet AoEs) herd the mobs near an obstacle (not the middle of a room). That way, any KB that is done is instantly mitigated. Takes exactly as long as herding the mobs to maximize effect of AoEs. Imagine that!

 

Tactics is more than just a toggle power.

 

That's assuming, of course, that a team has a Brute or Tanker in it.  I've been in a lot of teams lately with no melee at all, or one or two Stalkers or Scrappers and no other melee.  Then, if you are on a team with a Brute or Tanker, you're assuming that most of the people want to take the time for the Brute or Tanker to herd mobs.  The vast majority of the teams I've been on in the past six months do not.

[Nericus]

One thing, if you ever have Nul turn off group fly effect on your character, then take group fly as a power later, group fly will affect those around you and your pets but not you.

[Gravitus]

42 minutes ago, LiquidBandage said:

I like that you are trying to bend the narrative that I am somehow in the wrong.

 

I can think of a few situations where I would want Group Fly and a few where I would not want it. 

- Hamidon Raids with the classic strategy (focus targets for each Mito type). The Blue ones can be pretty high up and Group Fly makes that so much easier.

- Anytime you are playing low levels with new players and you have to traverse zones that are very vertical in design. It can be an experience to see a whole new mode of travel.

- Many of my melee characters use Combat Jumping to maneuver around to line up cones or get in close for a PBAoE. Then all of a sudden when I jump up I am flying and I have to fly back down (instead of using gravity) to line things up.

- Combats that range over a wider are than is covered by being in proximity of the Group Flier can interrupt how you try to catch up. If you don't have your own travel power active at the time, you just drop like a rock.

 

Do I want Group Fly on all the time or off all the time? Not necessarily, no. If I am around you specifically, yes, I probably want it off for 50% of my characters. You aren't approaching this situation from the right angle. What you should be doing is lobbying the Homecoming devs to add a new option to Null the Gull >> Make my travel powers only affect me and my pets. So things like Group Fly or Team Teleport only affect you and you do not have to worry about people complaining. You wouldn't have to constantly remind all of these bad players that they just simply have to go to Null and turn things off. You wouldn't have to hear their whining/crying anymore. You can live your best life with Group Fly working as you intend. 

Those are what most people would consider niche reasons for toggling it on and off . You sure wouldN’t be toggling Group Fly on/off with any degree of frequency. Now if people only had a fast way to  Travel to PD. Oh wait ....

Edited October 29, 2019 by Gravitus

[Nericus]

As to the knock back to knockdown io,  that to me is a luxury item is on keep others from crying about your alt having knock back

 

Me and a pal of mine worked out a build for our peacebringers that is defense capped and perma lightform. The only two powers converted to knockdown are the Nova blast power and one of the melee powers of human form.  That's it, and that is how it will stay. I knew how to compensate for knock back back in the day and I build my alts to my design and wishes and no one else.

[Twisted Toon]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

 

That's assuming, of course, that a team has a Brute or Tanker in it.  I've been in a lot of teams lately with no melee at all, or one or two Stalkers or Scrappers and no other melee.  Then, if you are on a team with a Brute or Tanker, you're assuming that most of the people want to take the time for the Brute or Tanker to herd mobs.  The vast majority of the teams I've been on in the past six months do not.

Who said you needed a Brute or a Tank, or even a Melee character to herd? On live, My Illusion/Force Field Controller herded quite well. Even Tanked and Scrapped very well. You need to think outside the box more.

 

And the guy who plays the Tank in our group (when he plays a tank in our group) doesn't hang around until the current set of mobs is totally defeated. He's up ahead herding another two groups to a convenient location while the rest of the team is taking care of the rest of the current set of mobs. And sometimes, the scrapper is herding a third group over to the Tank. We're a team full of of people that are not all that patient. However, We do, work around the power-set's secondary effects that others on the team want to play with.

 

Bossk_Hogg:

Since I play solely on Reunion, I am relatively certain that we'll never see each other in game. That's fine with me.

[Bossk_Hogg]

3 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

The people I team with actually know how to deal with people that have KB. Unlike (from reading complaints about KB) about 75% of the people that post on the forums.

 

KB lesson #1: We let the guy that herds the mobs together (for those sweet AoEs) herd the mobs near an obstacle (not the middle of a room). That way, any KB that is done is instantly mitigated. Takes exactly as long as herding the mobs to maximize effect of AoEs. Imagine that!

 

Tactics is more than just a toggle power.

If you think it's worth the time to clump things up to knock them into obstacles, rather than just obliterating them, I think it says more about the weakness of your teams and builds...

 

KB isn't worth the time it takes to "use it well". Its a killing speed debuff, either in scattering mobs or wasting time trying to optimize a bad secondary effect. A team with a sonic blast defender would have just had them dead. Random chance for knockback is a joke next to a stacking 20% damage resist debuff.  

Edited October 29, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Ael]

1 hour ago, Twisted Toon said:

Who said you needed a Brute or a Tank, or even a Melee character to herd? On live, My Illusion/Force Field Controller herded quite well. Even Tanked and Scrapped very well.

Indeed. I currently run a triple fire blaster who herds everything she can, at max settings to boot. Tanks and brutes aren't needed as much as they might have been in the early days of the game.

[Lines]

5 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

KB lesson #1: We let the guy that herds the mobs together (for those sweet AoEs) herd the mobs near an obstacle (not the middle of a room). That way, any KB that is done is instantly mitigated. Takes exactly as long as herding the mobs to maximize effect of AoEs. Imagine that!

 

I don’t mean to add fuel to a needlessly contentious issue, but this confused me...

 

If the strategy is to herd groups to obstacles in order to mitigate too much KB, surely it’s the same effect as just slotting KB>KD.  Except that obstacles aren’t always available on outdoor maps and herds seldom do as they’re told. Ranged groups doubly so.

[Gulbasaur]

4 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

KB isn't worth the time it takes to "use it well". Its a killing speed debuff, either in scattering mobs or wasting time trying to optimize a bad secondary effect. A team with a sonic blast defender would have just had them dead. Random chance for knockback is a joke next to a stacking 20% damage resist debuff.  

It depends on whether you want a "meat tenderiser" risk-free playstyle or not. Yes, funnelling every enemy you can into the hotspot is an efficient way of playing, but I would argue it's not a particularly fun one. There's a substantial amount of players who avoid the "we stand here until the tank moves then we stand there until the tank moves" teams because, well, there's no challenge to them so there's no fun. 

 

I used to main a peacebringer - they have knockback coming out of every wispy, glowing orifice - far beyond what IOs could deal with - and I could hammer through enemies at a rate of knots and then shift into dwarf form to use AoE knockback as a control mechanism - it's phenomenal at mid levels when brutes draw aggro tankers but have scrapper defences. I also got a brute to incarnate levels who relied pretty heavily on AoE attacks and it never really bothered me. Likewise a stalker. 

 

There's a difference between farming and playing.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Gulbasaur

[Apparition]

8 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

Who said you needed a Brute or a Tank, or even a Melee character to herd? On live, My Illusion/Force Field Controller herded quite well. Even Tanked and Scrapped very well. You need to think outside the box more.

 

And the guy who plays the Tank in our group (when he plays a tank in our group) doesn't hang around until the current set of mobs is totally defeated. He's up ahead herding another two groups to a convenient location while the rest of the team is taking care of the rest of the current set of mobs. And sometimes, the scrapper is herding a third group over to the Tank. We're a team full of of people that are not all that patient. However, We do, work around the power-set's secondary effects that others on the team want to play with.

 

Bossk_Hogg:

Since I play solely on Reunion, I am relatively certain that we'll never see each other in game. That's fine with me.

 

I know perfectly well that herding is possible outside of Brutes or Tankers, but those are the only two ATs that I see still bother to herd on occasion these days as some see it as "their role."  Everyone else just speeds through or steamrolls because they're not about to wait around for someone to herd.

[drbuzzard]

A single player who decides that everyone around them has too accommodate their play style is the problem child here. Everyone else has to go to Null the Gull just in case they encounter you? No, a punt is a much simple solution. You can solo or find people that don't mind. The onus is on you for trying to make others play your way. 

 

As for knock back, while there's the occasional player who handles it well, it's one of those where 90% make the 10% look bad. The number of times I've had a nuke popping off to empty ground because some knockback happy genius just cleared the board of targets without actually killing them is beyond counting. 

 

Recently I was in an argument where a tank stated their policy that if someone disrupts aggro, then they can deal with the mess (in this particular case it was a rain power, rather than knock back) and the tank will move on to another spawn. I supported the tanker because if they are expected to run around like a chicken with their head cut off chasing scattered enemies, both efficiency and fun go in the tank. I'm not one to tell others how to play (even group fly, rains, knock back), but that play style comes with the consequences be it dealing with your own aggro, or being kicked (which is very deserved for causing effects on other players that they cannot mitigate at the time). 

[drbuzzard]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

 

I know perfectly well that herding is possible outside of Brutes or Tankers, but those are the only two ATs that I see still bother to herd on occasion these days as some see it as "their role."  Everyone else just speeds through or steamrolls because they're not about to wait around for someone to herd.

Honestly I really wish people would stop with attempts to herd anymore. It seems that far too many people don't understand the aggro or AOE caps which make herding both worthless and dangerous. I used to herd back in the day when it was effective and efficient. It is no longer either, and far too many people seem to have missed the memo. 

[Shred Monkey]

I think Group Fly needs a re-do because it's not a very useful power.  But who cares if you get shifted into the flying position?  It's not like you magically float away out of combat range... you're flying... so just keep going while flying.  No big deal.

[Rylas]

19 hours ago, Gravitus said:

Im not going to alter the way I play because you’re bad at this game or too lazy to go to null. 
 

#endrant

You keep referencing Null the Gull as though it's something everyone knows about. I've played this game since '05 and this is the first time I've even heard that's an option. 

 

I support playing how you like, but I agree, it's probably something you could give fair warning for to teammates before trials and TFs. Assuming everyone knows everything about the game that you know just makes you part of the problem. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Rylas

[drbuzzard]

10 minutes ago, Rylas said:

You keep referencing Null the Gull as though it's something everyone knows about. I've played this game since '05 and this is the first time I've even heard that's an option. 

 

Yeah, I honestly had not heard of this particular option either and I've used Null a fair amount. There's a heck of a lot of options in all the bird menus.