Have the talks with NCsoft slowed down content progression?

[Jimmy]

Now, to answer to the OP!

On 11/2/2019 at 1:10 AM, DR_Mechano said:

Look at CoXG/Rebirth, they've had tons of stuff added, new powersets, a new AT, new costume options, lifting the restriction on NPC parts going to players (not all of them but those that make sense and work without any issue). Meanwhile CoXH has had 1 new AT (which is in need of a rework, admitted by the devs themselves since it is currently seen as a bit lackluster), We've not had any new costumes (we've had patterns but no actually new costume pieces) or had the restrictions lifted like on CoXG. We've had 2 new story arcs and a lot of back end power balancing work (which also goes on on CoXG I might add).

 

It just feels like things are a touch slow when compared to both Rebirth/CoXG and I'm curious if, because CoXH is looking to become 'official' that they're currently being rather conservative and restricting to mostly power changes.

There's a few reasons for the apparent slowness. Some others have touched on the reasons but I'll provide a bit more detail.

1. We've been focusing a lot on underlying technology before content. There's been massive behind-the-scenes changes whilst we get ready to start working on new stuff - the 64-bit client is the most obvious public-facing example.
2. Attention is taken up by things not directly related to development. Yes, the talks are one of those things, but we're also having to manage, maintain and moderate a far larger and more complex infrastructure. These things, and others, take up time and energy.
3. The team contains several professional game developers and software developers and as such our quality bar is very high, and we're matching the quality existing content as closely as we can. There's plenty of new stuff in the pipeline, we just want to put more time into it before we're happy to push it out for wider testing.
4. The team is still small. We absolutely will be recruiting people and growing the team in the future (we've had many, many, many people express interest), but it's not quite time for that just yet. We're focusing on tools and infrastructure first.

Hope that all makes sense.

[jubakumbi]

5 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Now, to answer to the OP!

There's a few reasons for the apparent slowness. Some others have touched on the reasons but I'll provide a bit more detail.

1. We've been focusing a lot on underlying technology before content. There's been massive behind-the-scenes changes whilst we get ready to start working on new stuff - the 64-bit client is the most obvious public-facing example.
2. Attention is taken up by things not directly related to development. Yes, the talks are one of those things, but we're also having to manage, maintain and moderate a far larger and more complex infrastructure. These things, and others, take up time and energy.
3. The team contains several professional game developers and software developers and as such our quality bar is very high, and we're matching the quality existing content as closely as we can. There's plenty of new stuff in the pipeline, we just want to put more time into it before we're happy to push it out for wider testing.
4. The team is still small. We absolutely will be recruiting people and growing the team in the future (we've had many, many, many people express interest), but it's not quite time for that just yet. We're focusing on tools and infrastructure first.

Hope that all makes sense.

This is the kind of impartial, facts based information, presented in an neutral voice, that will increase the positive perceptions, IMO.

[Sylar]

31 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Ah, yes. That is usually the first. Let me see if I remember it correctly. While the English attack from without, the wicked Leandro undermines from within, forging a secret alliance with Buckingham and placing himself on the throne. 

 

But really, Skylar, why stop there. We have heard much more festive variations. He makes oaths with pagan gods, seduces the queen in her own chamber, teach pigs to dance and horses to fly, and keeps the moon carefully hidden within the folds of his robe. 

 

Have I forgotten anything?

i didnt make any of those assumptions that you mentioned, he did hoard the code, the IP is not his to own, its neither ours, but instead of coming out about the server other people did, and they tried over the years, they got hacked and downvoted and even videos removed off yuotube, i know many people who tried to leak the server, why shouldnt it be for everyone? the way he went about is wrong, the idea of invite only was good until i seen first hand how "what he says, goes" way of handling things went, it was terrible.

 

You can sit there and add anything you want to make it sound ridiculous but i dont appreciate the gas lighting, i know what i experienced, and i know how things were run, i was speaking factually on the information that i have in front of me, and from what i have experienced, nothing you added was of any help to anyone or friendly in any wya, your comment proves my poinit exactly how people on this server handle criticism or complaints.

[Twisted Toon]

3 hours ago, Sylar said:

 while i exclusively play on CoXG only,

 

While i have stated i am exclusively a CoXG player,

 

i do go on other servers from time to time to have fun play in teams and roll a new toon every now and then

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Sylar]

9 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Ok rather than criticize what i have said and stay on point i will bite at your comment and provide a bit more clarity.

 

I review the servers, i made a couple of videos regarding this more recently the COXG server, my main server is COXG, when i say "exclusive" i mean i only play on there in my spare time and refuse to play on any server as a hobby, instead, i have played on numerous servers to acquire content to make formal reviews so that the general consensus is aware of how each server operates and plays, for example my recent review for COXG was good and their server has been pretty good to me since i have started, well before i attempted to make any reviews of the servers, so there you have it, i hope this enlightens you.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Sylar

[Sylar]

4 hours ago, Sylar said:

i tend to check out the other servers from time to time

i do go on other servers from time to time to have fun play in teams and roll a new toon every now and then

I mean if we are taking things out of context, then here is me stating that i do go on other servers to check them out, hence my post above about reviews.

[Chris24601]

24 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

This is the kind of impartial, facts based information, presented in an neutral voice, that will increase the positive perceptions, IMO.

Agreed, and I'll further add that the infrastructure focus, particularly the 64-bit client (given that many operating systems have dropped 32-bit support entirely in the past few years), is going to make the biggest difference going forward when compared to other servers running 32-bit only City of Heroes.

 

All those hastily-implemented features on other servers are only worth something if your operating system can actually run an archaic 32-bit client (Apple, for example, dropped 32-bit support with macOS 10.15 "Catalina" earlier this year).

[Myrmidon]

43 minutes ago, Sylar said:

i didnt make any of those assumptions that you mentioned, he did hoard the code, the IP is not his to own, its neither ours, but instead of coming out about the server other people did, and they tried over the years, they got hacked and downvoted and even videos removed off yuotube, i know many people who tried to leak the server, why shouldnt it be for everyone? the way he went about is wrong, the idea of invite only was good until i seen first hand how "what he says, goes" way of handling things went, it was terrible.

 

You can sit there and add anything you want to make it sound ridiculous but i dont appreciate the gas lighting, i know what i experienced, and i know how things were run, i was speaking factually on the information that i have in front of me, and from what i have experienced, nothing you added was of any help to anyone or friendly in any wya, your comment proves my poinit exactly how people on this server handle criticism or complaints.

Sorry, but someone that eats the brains of supers to steal their powers can never truly be trusted.

[jubakumbi]

8 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Agreed, and I'll further add that the infrastructure focus, particularly the 64-bit client (given that many operating systems have dropped 32-bit support entirely in the past few years), is going to make the biggest difference going forward when compared to other servers running 32-bit only City of Heroes.

 

All those hastily-implemented features on other servers are only worth something if your operating system can actually run an archaic 32-bit client (Apple, for example, dropped 32-bit support with macOS 10.15 "Catalina" earlier this year).

You basically attack the other servers in a paasive agressive fashion.

Why?

[Sylar]

11 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Agreed, and I'll further add that the infrastructure focus, particularly the 64-bit client (given that many operating systems have dropped 32-bit support entirely in the past few years), is going to make the biggest difference going forward when compared to other servers running 32-bit only City of Heroes.

 

All those hastily-implemented features on other servers are only worth something if your operating system can actually run an archaic 32-bit client (Apple, for example, dropped 32-bit support with macOS 10.15 "Catalina" earlier this year).

Nothing is "hastily-implemented" they are put on a test server, and tested for a few weeks with bug fixes and checks on, i know because i recently went on the test server to test out the new changes on COXG and a few weeks before that on Rebirth so what you said right there is false.

[Sylar]

4 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Sorry, but someone that eats the brains of supers to steal their powers can never truly be trusted.

haha i appreciate that!

[roleki]

4 hours ago, Sylar said:

7. " I remain a member of their Discord group, just to keep an ear to the ground about what goes on over there " Thats pretty petty, what are they doing plotting a take over or the downfall of HC?

And yet, here you are, apparently with strong opinions based on what must have been exhaustive observation of HC's forums.

 

While there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, the fact that you expressed disdain for someone else doing practically the same thing... well, it doesn't exactly say "Now THIS is the opinion of a rational fellow!"

 

[Budo]

I like apples.

You like oranges.

 

Let's all argue for a long time about it.

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, roleki said:

And yet, here you are, apparently with strong opinions based on what must have been exhaustive observation of HC's forums.

 

While there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, the fact that you expressed disdain for someone else doing practically the same thing... well, it doesn't exactly say "Now THIS is the opinion of a rational fellow!"

As much as I like @Abraxus, the context in which it was posted was a little more like 'watching the enemy' than 'reviewing the progress'.

 

These are all just smoke screens anyway, the attacking of the messengers, IMO.

 

Humans just love to try and end an argument by attacking the messenger over the message though...that has not changed in a few thousand years that I can see...

 

This whole tribal mentality based war of one group being the 'right and true' CoH is really funny and sad to watch though.

As was said in another thread, the game is big enough for everyone, why snipe at other players/server runners that are just trying to have some fun?

Why?

What purpose does it serve other than personal dopamine from being mean to attack the other players?

[jubakumbi]

3 minutes ago, Budo said:

I like apples.

You like oranges.

 

Let's all argue for a long time about it.

I also prefer apples, but I do not try to villify those that do not.

This is the difference, IME.

[Sylar]

12 minutes ago, roleki said:

And yet, here you are, apparently with strong opinions based on what must have been exhaustive observation of HC's forums.

 

While there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, the fact that you expressed disdain for someone else doing practically the same thing... well, it doesn't exactly say "Now THIS is the opinion of a rational fellow!"

 

I dont sit in HC's discord to try and lie or make stuff up about them or attempt to orchestrate their downfall though that is the difference, i make reviews based upon the information i recieve and the content i experience, that is much different to " keeping an eye on them" which is massively petty imo.

[Chris24601]

5 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

You basically attack the other servers in a paasive agressive fashion.

Why?

It's not passive aggressive. Its my subjective evaluation of where things stand in relation to the various servers.

 

I call their work hastily-implemented because working on new "cool toys" is fundamentally worthless when they're only going to be accessible on aging and obsolescent machines. Its akin to worrying about a car's paint job instead of the engine that hasn't even been looked at for the last 30k miles. Sure that paint job gets lots of compliments on how cool it looks, but when that neglected engine drops out of the frame the whole thing is destined for the scrap yard (or at best a museum... either way, not useful for its main purpose anymore) because their focus is on the "shiny" instead of what actually keeps the thing running.

 

They're more concerned with additions to a virtually obsolete client (again, 32-bit clients are not supported by the latest MacOS and I can almost guarantee the same will be true whenever Win11 arrives) instead of doing the 'boring' but critically important structural work to make sure the game can still be run on a modern computer that the Homecoming devs have used their time to implement.

 

I also read that blog entry by one of the Rebirth devs posted above and yeah... when you're making major changes to your live release patch two days before you plan to launch it and ultimately have to roll the whole thing back and tell your players to run a separate .bat file to get your version to run because of how screwed up the patch roll out was... yes, I feel safe saying that they're being hasty with their implementation.

 

From what was outlined above, Homecoming is focused on cleaning up (or at least better understanding) some of the underlying spaghetti code so things like that are less likely to happen. Again, not a new shiny, but something that will make for a stronger system behind their new content down the line.

 

The other servers also don't appear to give a damn about trying to provide assurance for their player-base that their whole server isn't one C&D away from vanishing in a puff of internet smoke. While there's not guarantee the negotiations between Homecoming and NCSoft will be successful, just the fact that they're engaged in a good faith effort instead of just crossing their fingers and hoping NCSoft doesn't drop a C&D on them lends a sense of stability to Homecoming that the other projects lack. How useful are all those new power sets and costume options the day after their servers shut down due to a C&D? Again... hasty implementation and putting the cart (new shinies) before the horse (the infrastructure needed to keep the whole thing running).

[roleki]

3 minutes ago, Sylar said:

I dont sit in HC's discord to try and lie or make stuff up about them or attempt to orchestrate their downfall though that is the difference, i make reviews based upon the information i recieve and the content i experience, that is much different to " keeping an eye on them" which is massively petty imo.

If those are the kinds of things @Abraxusis doing, then yeah, that is petty.  But, the gap between "keeping an ear out" and "lying, making stuff up about them or attempting to orchestrate their downfall" requires a bigger leap than context would suggest.

[jubakumbi]

14 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

It's not passive aggressive. Its my subjective evaluation of where things stand in relation to the various servers.

 

I call their work hastily-implemented because working on new "cool toys" is fundamentally worthless when they're only going to be accessible on aging and obsolescent machines. Its akin to worrying about a car's paint job instead of the engine that hasn't even been looked at for the last 30k miles. Sure that paint job gets lots of compliments on how cool it looks, but when that neglected engine drops out of the frame the whole thing is destined for the scrap yard (or at best a museum... either way, not useful for its main purpose anymore) because their focus is on the "shiny" instead of what actually keeps the thing running.

 

They're more concerned with additions to a virtually obsolete client (again, 32-bit clients are not supported by the latest MacOS and I can almost guarantee the same will be true whenever Win11 arrives) instead of doing the 'boring' but critically important structural work to make sure the game can still be run on a modern computer that the Homecoming devs have used their time to implement.

 

I also read that blog entry by one of the Rebirth devs posted above and yeah... when you're making major changes to your live release patch two days before you plan to launch it and ultimately have to roll the whole thing back and tell your players to run a separate .bat file to get your version to run because of how screwed up the patch roll out was... yes, I feel safe saying that they're being hasty with their implementation.

 

From what was outlined above, Homecoming is focused on cleaning up (or at least better understanding) some of the underlying spaghetti code so things like that are less likely to happen. Again, not a new shiny, but something that will make for a stronger system behind their new content down the line.

 

The other servers also don't appear to give a damn about trying to provide assurance for their player-base that their whole server isn't one C&D away from vanishing in a puff of internet smoke. While there's not guarantee the negotiations between Homecoming and NCSoft will be successful, just the fact that they're engaged in a good faith effort instead of just crossing their fingers and hoping NCSoft doesn't drop a C&D on them lends a sense of stability to Homecoming that the other projects lack. How useful are all those new power sets and costume options the day after their servers shut down due to a C&D? Again... hasty implementation and putting the cart (new shinies) before the horse (the infrastructure needed to keep the whole thing running).

So the answer to my Why? question is that, in your opinion, they are all 'doing it wrong' and HC is 'doing it better', because they are addressing issues in the order in which you think those issues are more important.

 

You choose to present this PoV, however, in what is, in fact, a very passive-aggressive attacking voice.

The words you choose to use and the voice in which you use them, shows a clear disdain toward the other servers.

 

You talk as if all of these things are somehow mutaully exclusive as well.

If the HC team continues to interact with other server runners, then the 64 bit client will be available to everyone, which helps the game, not just HC.

If some other server runners stumble and fall, everyone learns, but you choose to point out only the bad incidents and none of the many good ones.

You waggle more C&D FUD as some kind of danger stick - in your example, a simple removal of said texture offending code does the trick...and if NCSoft sends on C&D, then they would have to kill them all, which IMO is what many in the HC community want, thinking HC is legit doe to these 'talks'.

 

So many of the people that play this game simply do not understand a game does not have to be run like a bank, nor does CoH have to have one true place to be played (and thusly controlled).

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling and additions upon reflection

[Sailboat]

5 hours ago, Sylar said:

3. Leo has had the code for more than 6 years, up until someone leaked it, it is extremely wrong to assume he was going to give out the code to anyone before this, the code was hoarded away and he claimed it for himself, that is fact, this is not a hate comment, i am just saying how it is right now.

Eh.  I keep seeing this claim.  Yet, if I understand it, Homecoming asserts that they were preparing to roll out the code at around the time the news broke.  Which to believe?

 

Well, after the news broke/was leaked, Homecoming almost immediately rolled out public servers and a vast volunteer effort with a server (almost immediately becoming multiple servers), forums, discord, in-game GMs, and (let's not forget) cold hard cash that would only later be replaced by donations (always a risky expenditure).

 

Having worked on volunteer internet efforts before, I have to say that the speed, size, and well-thought-out comprehensive deployment of the (all-volunteer!) Homecoming effort would be completely implausible as a panicked response to the leak.  It's patently obvious to anyone who's ever done any serious volunteer effort that this MUST have been in the works before the leak.

 

That said -- that's a moment's examination would lead any thoughtful person to reject the claim that HC never intended to release -- we are left to wonder why this narrative is constantly being pushed, and by whom. Do the the people asserting this claim think we are easily fooled?

Edited November 4, 2019 by Sailboat

[ZacKing]

5 minutes ago, Sailboat said:

Eh.  I keep seeing this claim.  Yet, if I understand it, Homecoming asserts that they were preparing to roll out the code at around the time the news broke.  Which to believe?

 

Well, after the news broke/was leaked, Homecoming almost immediately rolled out public servers and a vast volunteer effort with a server (almost immediately becoming multiple servers), forums, discord, in-game GMs, and (let's not forget) cold hard cash that would only later be replaced by donations (always a risky expenditure).

 

Having worked on volunteer internet efforts before, I have to say that the speed, size, and well-thought-out comprehensive deployment of the (all-volunteer!) Homecoming effort would be completely implausible as a panicked response to the leak.  It's patently obvious to anyone who's ever done any serious volunteer effort that this MUST have been in the works before the leak.

 

That said -- that's a moment's examination would lead any thoughtful person to reject the claim that HC never intended to release -- we are left to wonder why this narrative is constantly being pushed, and by whom. Do the the people asserting this claim think we are easily fooled?

I don't think they had a NDA and "invite only" policy because they were working for years to get the code ready to release to the world.  I'm sure there were contingency plans in place for what to do once word got out. 

 

This isn't a knock on anyone at homecoming.  I think any of us would have done what they did were we in their shoes.  But I don't think they were in hiding for years and by coincidence were ready to release the game for all the world to see when someone broke the NDA.  regardless, I think we should be happy with what we have and enjoy it while it lasts and thank all of the people running various servers for their effort.  For all we know, NCSoft is going to shut it down tomorrow.

 

[Ulysses Dare]

9 minutes ago, Sailboat said:

Eh.  I keep seeing this claim.  Yet, if I understand it, Homecoming asserts that they were preparing to roll out the code at around the time the news broke.  Which to believe?

 

Well, after the news broke/was leaked, Homecoming almost immediately rolled out public servers and a vast volunteer effort with a server (almost immediately becoming multiple servers), forums, discord, in-game GMs, and (let's not forget) cold hard cash that would only later be replaced by donations (always a risky expenditure).

 

Having worked on volunteer internet efforts before, I have to say that the speed, size, and well-thought-out comprehensive deployment of the (all-volunteer!) Homecoming effort would be completely implausible as a panicked response to the leak.  It's patently obvious to anyone who's ever done any serious volunteer effort that this MUST have been in the works before the leak.

 

That said -- that's a moment's examination would lead any thoughtful person to reject the claim that HC never intended to release -- we are left to wonder why this narrative is constantly being pushed, and by whom. Do the the people asserting this claim think we are easily fooled?

The leakers, some of whom were still active in SCoRE until after Homecoming (Bree) was up, have stated they were unaware of any such plans. So if those plans did exist they certainly weren't part of a widespread effort among the SCoRE membership.

[Abraxus]

Those calling me out for remaining a member of the FourChan/Thunderspy/CoxG discord, and observing the distasteful content that is circulated around there, then so be it.  I'm fine with that.  I believe in knowing, rather than speculating, or jumping on a bandwagon.  I have seen the racist, misogynistic, and conspiracy-minded things that get posted over there regularly with my own eyes.  I prefer to know these things myself, so I can speak from fact, rather than conjecture.  Call it whatever you like, petty or whatever.  But, while you apparently question my motives, nothing I said can't be proven by just perusing their Discord.  As unpleasant, and distasteful as I find much of it, vigilance is what I would call it.   You can always stick to the safe bubble of what suites you.  But, if you are to know the real landscape, one must occasionally venture out to see what goes on outside that sphere. 

For the record, I have no such issues with Rebirth, or any of the other servers out there, and I am a member of ALL of those Discord channels as well, and I love what they are doing on those servers.  I would also point out that when I said "remaining a member", it's because I didn't join these other Discord servers for the purpose of gathering intelligence, and using it to disparage them.  I joined them all almost as soon as they became available, because I wanted to see the full breadth of what was going on in the new world of CoH that sprang into existence back in May of this year, because I love this game.  The language, behavior, and attitudes I observed, and characterized on the CoxG Discord server reflect what it evolved into very quickly after I joined.  So, take that for what it's worth. 

If someone maintains that playing on the CoxG CoH server, is somehow different from the conversation on the Discord community, I cannot confirm, or deny this.  If true, great.  However, the concerns I have from their Discord activity would keep me from ever actually playing on their CoH server on principle alone, knowing that some of those same folks are there, and just not showing that behavior in-game.  So, if you have problems with me, just remember this.  What I post here in the forum, what I post in Discord, or Facebook is all representative of who I am, and I am no different there, than anywhere else in this community.  If you question anything, it really shouldn't be my honesty, or sincerity.  What you see here, is what you get. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Abraxus

[Chris24601]

17 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

You choose to present this PoV, however, in what is, in fact, a very passive-aggressive attacking voice.

The words you choose to use and the voice in which you use them, shows a clear disdain toward the other servers.

Calling something passive aggressive is just blabber for "I don't like what you're saying but can't actually refute the substance of it."

 

I work in an IP related field and have a background in computer technology so yes, the others are actually doing it wrong. I can't tell you how many ventures I've seen go out of business because they focused on the flash without addressing the underlying systems needed to maintain it. You can have the best ideas in the world and if you don't have a solid foundation to build them on they'll be just another failure.

 

And apparently it IS mutually exclusive at the moment because none of the others are moving to a 64-bit client and HC hasn't grabbed up any of their "easy fixes." They can share a bit, but from what I understand there are some rather fundamental differences to the i23, i24 and i25 systems that don't make it as easy as a straight cut and paste to cross implement features (particularly when going from a 32-bit to 64-bit architecture or visa versa).

 

Also, you clearly aren't that versed in IP law. NCSoft actually CAN absolutely pick and choose exactly who they hit with a C&D at their whim. That is the entire point of IP law. They get to selectively choose who gets to use their IP (which in this case is not the additions you say they could remove to get around... its the base code of the game). They are entirely within their rights to tell one person they can't use it at all and the person next to them they can do whatever they want with it for any reason they decide. That they haven't is only by NCSoft's own good graces. The ONLY thing that can truly prevent that possibly though is an actual licensing deal with NCSoft which sets the terms for use and that's what the Homecoming team are trying to secure that the others aren't.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, jubakumbi said:

As much as I like @Abraxus, the context in which it was posted was a little more like 'watching the enemy' than 'reviewing the progress'.

 

These are all just smoke screens anyway, the attacking of the messengers, IMO.

 

Humans just love to try and end an argument by attacking the messenger over the message though...that has not changed in a few thousand years that I can see...

 

This whole tribal mentality based war of one group being the 'right and true' CoH is really funny and sad to watch though.

As was said in another thread, the game is big enough for everyone, why snipe at other players/server runners that are just trying to have some fun?

Why?

What purpose does it serve other than personal dopamine from being mean to attack the other players?

 

We are number one. All others are number two, or lower.