Have the talks with NCsoft slowed down content progression?

[Abraxus]

15 minutes ago, nekkidtruth said:

Honestly, you've already answered the original post and it's really quite irritating to wade through all of the toxicity. Homecoming is always the bad guy when it comes to the other servers. I've personally witnessed the same as was mentioned above where it's just a constant topic of discussion on the multiple discords. I say cut the cord and lock this topic. The paranoia, accusations, rehashing of shit no one can change over the last 7 years...it really degrades the community.

Oddly enough, I'd be fine with that!  I think what folks wanted to say, they have said.  Now it's all just going 'round, and coming back as new posts, worded differently.  😉

 

11 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

I apologize if I missed it, but I would at least like to know something tangential to the original question, with the contextual understanding that it's not a small question and busy volunteer Devs might not be prepared to answer it yet, but:

What is the design philosophy which the Homecoming Team intends to lead with once content development begins/resumes?

 

More to the point:  Is the Homecoming Team prepared to deeply re-examine design philosophies which were implemented during Live or other for-profit game development, and treat the Homecoming game development as the new beast that it is?

I think they already have taken a different approach.  They have said that even if the talks succeed, there will be no subscriptions.  As for their intentions on design for the game itself, so far their approach at fixing the foundations of the game first, before going heavy at creating a lot more content has worked great.  These servers have been VERY stable!  One of the problems in the old days was that the code was so undisciplined, and undocumented, it took a lot of testing and effort to implement even small things, let alone large things.  I believe the HC team have worked hard on getting a handle on that situation, and will continue to do so, in order to facilitate the ease of roll-outs they have planned for the foreseeable, and distant future alike.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Abraxus

[MetaVileTerror]

Thank you for the insight, Abraxus, but your answer isn't quite what I was looking for.  I would like to get an official statement, as well as hear about what the Homecoming Team is looking at in terms of content design philosophy, not stability and future-proofing development (the latter of which they've been pretty forthcoming with, so no complaints there).

[Abraxus]

2 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Thank you for the insight, Abraxus, but your answer isn't quite what I was looking for.  I would like to get an official statement, as well as hear about what the Homecoming Team is looking at in terms of content design philosophy, not stability and future-proofing development (the latter of which they've been pretty forthcoming with, so no complaints there).

GM Jimmy has been watching this thread pretty close, and as that is more on-target to the OP topic, there is a chance you might get an answer.  But, I would submit that what they have been doing to shore up the foundations, so to speak, is a good approach to adequately prepare for whatever future development comes along.  Just my .02 of a dollars worth.

[molten_dragon]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Frankly, the very fact that NCSoft hasn't dropped a hammer on every last server the moment they surfaced is evidence they are NOT the bad guys. Regardless of who or their reasons seven years ago, whoever is in charge of NCSoft NOW is, at a minimum, sympathetic to our situation if not actually supportive. That makes them the GOOD guys.

That's going a little further than is warranted I think.  I've never hated NCSoft personally.  They provided a game I loved for many years and then they stopped providing it.  I was disappointed, sure, but that doesn't mean I hated them or thought they were bad guys.  I also don't think the fact that they haven't sent out C&D letters automatically makes them good guys.  It may just mean they're indifferent.  Playing rogue server whack-a-mole may not be worth the effort or money if they have no intention to monetize the City of Heroes IP in the future.  But likewise, trying to make a deal with people running a rogue server when the money they'll make is trivial also may not be worth the effort.

[Abraxus]

8 minutes ago, molten_dragon said:

That's going a little further than is warranted I think.  I've never hated NCSoft personally.  They provided a game I loved for many years and then they stopped providing it.  I was disappointed, sure, but that doesn't mean I hated them or thought they were bad guys.  I also don't think the fact that they haven't sent out C&D letters automatically makes them good guys.  It may just mean they're indifferent.  Playing rogue server whack-a-mole may not be worth the effort or money if they have no intention to monetize the City of Heroes IP in the future.  But likewise, trying to make a deal with people running a rogue server when the money they'll make is trivial also may not be worth the effort.

We have speculated on that in many previous threads, and until it's all over, it's unlikely we'll have any definitive answers.  I know I was unhappy with NCSoft for quite some time, and distrustful when I first heard about the talks.  I got over it.  I put it behind me.  Truly, if they wanted pull something underhanded, there's really no reason that they would not have done it already, and just be finished with it.  Instead, they are still (to my knowledge, limited though it is), negotiating in good faith, and the process continues.  Hopefully good things will come from it when it's done, but even if it is successful, it likely won't please everyone.  Realistically, hardly anything in life does, so that's par for the course. 😉

Edited November 4, 2019 by Abraxus

[Jimmy]

29 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

I apologize if I missed it, but I would at least like to know something tangential to the original question, with the contextual understanding that it's not a small question and busy volunteer Devs might not be prepared to answer it yet, but:

What is the design philosophy which the Homecoming Team intends to lead with once content development begins/resumes?

 

More to the point:  Is the Homecoming Team prepared to deeply re-examine design philosophies which were implemented during Live or other for-profit game development, and treat the Homecoming game development as the new beast that it is?

The intention has always been to make the game and any future content feel like home (hence Homecoming), but we absolutely also do want to bring modern design sensibilities and technology to the game as well. The new story arcs are a good example of this.

 

We're also definitely prepared to take a look at old systems, especially ones that were heavily tied to the business model of the game, but we've no solid plans in that regard just yet. Again, the intent is to keep it familiar whilst also modernising where it makes sense.

 

Kinda a brief answer but I hope that sheds some light on our thoughts 🙂

[molten_dragon]

1 minute ago, Abraxus said:

We have speculated on that in many previous threads, and until it's all over, it's unlikely we'll have any definitive answers.  I know I was unhappy with NCSoft for quite some time, and distrustful when I first heard about the talks.  I got over it.  I put it behind me.  Truly, if they wanted pull something underhanded, there's really no reason that they would not have done it already, and just be finished with it.  Instead, they are still (to my knowledge, limited though it is), negotiating in good faith, and the process continues.  Hopefully good things will come from it when it's done, but even if it is successful, it likely won't please everyone.  Realistically, hardly anything in life does, so that's par for the course. 😉

Obviously I'm not involved with the negotiations.  I have no reason to disbelieve anything the HC team is telling us, but I work in project management and acquisition.  It's never smart to count on anything until the ink on the deal is signed and dry.  If HC does cut a deal with NCSoft to legitimize the game, great.  But I'm not holding my breath.

[MetaVileTerror]

It does shed some light, yes, and I hope that things like "feels like home" could become a little more concrete in the future.  After all, I think we've all seen quite a few threads in these forums already about people having some pretty wildly different experiences with the game while it was Live.  I'm not sure if it's on any of the Dev Team's radars, but there was that recent hot Topic in the Suggestions board which . . . well . . . it was very informative as to a pretty steep disconnect in the feelings of various members of the playerbase.  The ol' AE/Knockback threads which keep popping up also reinforce this realization.
Home is where the heart is, and people seem to have some very different hearts.

 

When you're in a better position to do so, I would very much like to request a more formalized exploration of the design philosophies as they apply to Homecoming's future.  I'm not sure if you have someone on your team already, but I know I'd certainly be willing to pitch in on the documentation for that.

[Abraxus]

5 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

It does shed some light, yes, and I hope that things like "feels like home" could become a little more concrete in the future.  After all, I think we've all seen quite a few threads in these forums already about people having some pretty wildly different experiences with the game while it was Live.  I'm not sure if it's on any of the Dev Team's radars, but there was that recent hot Topic in the Suggestions board which . . . well . . . it was very informative as to a pretty steep disconnect in the feelings of various members of the playerbase.  The ol' AE/Knockback threads which keep popping up also reinforce this realization.
Home is where the heart is, and people seem to have some very different hearts.

 

When you're in a better position to do so, I would very much like to request a more formalized exploration of the design philosophies as they apply to Homecoming's future.  I'm not sure if you have someone on your team already, but I know I'd certainly be willing to pitch in on the documentation for that.

Hey!  I'd love to see Knockback, replaced with Knockdown.  But, that's just my choice because I believe it would prevent players using KB from having a potentially negative effect on how others play in team situations.  Especially, the Melee guys.  But, that might be a discussion for another thread, another time.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Abraxus

[MetaVileTerror]

I mean, it HAS been a discussion for other threads; several of them.  I'm just citing them as examples of how the nebulous concept of "feels like home" doesn't actually tell us what's in store.

[Abraxus]

26 minutes ago, MetaVileTerror said:

I mean, it HAS been a discussion for other threads; several of them.  I'm just citing them as examples of how the nebulous concept of "feels like home" doesn't actually tell us what's in store.

I take that to mean, that while not everything is planned out yet, the intent is to keep it "feeling" like City of Heroes, and not Champions, or DC Universe Online.  Something recognizable in the feel, but not necessarily tied to any hard-and-fast design rule that prevents them from modernizing things.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Abraxus

[MTeague]

2 hours ago, Abraxus said:

Oddly enough, I'd be fine with that!  I think what folks wanted to say, they have said.  Now it's all just going 'round, and coming back as new posts, worded differently.  😉

 

I think they already have taken a different approach.  They have said that even if the talks succeed, there will be no subscriptions.  As for their intentions on design for the game itself, so far their approach at fixing the foundations of the game first, before going heavy at creating a lot more content has worked great.  These servers have been VERY stable!  One of the problems in the old days was that the code was so undisciplined, and undocumented, it took a lot of testing and effort to implement even small things, let alone large things.  I believe the HC team have worked hard on getting a handle on that situation, and will continue to do so, in order to facilitate the ease of roll-outs they have planned for the foreseeable, and distant future alike.

Well, even if there's no official subscriptions as such, I know I personally would be willing to do a recurring $10 / month donation, if the day ever comes when that's allowable. 

I don't mind an up-front price, and I don't mind a subscription.  And I recognize they have costs to cover, and the simple fact that hey, they're putting forth a lot of effort to restore a game I love, to maintain it, to carefully and gradually expand upon it.  And that has value to me.  I don't mind in the slightest if they profit from this, if and when they are eventually able to do so legally. 

 

What I don't want, is for the game to become microtransaction-based.

Let the "P2W" vendor's name be only an ironic joke, and not the sad reality of too many other games.

Edited November 5, 2019 by MTeague

[Abraxus]

13 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Well, even if there's no official subscriptions as such, I know I personally would be willing to do a recurring $10 / month donation, if the day ever comes when that's allowable. 

I don't mind an up-front price, and I don't mind a subscription.  And I recognize they have costs to cover, and the simple fact that hey, they're putting forth a lot of effort to restore a game I love, to maintain it, to carefully and gradually expand upon it.  And that has value to me.  I don't mind in the slightest if they profit from this, if and when they are eventually able to do so legally. 

 

What I don't want, is for the game to become microtransaction-based.

Let the "P2W" vendor's name be only an ironic joke, and not the sad reality of too many other games.

I wish I could know for sure, and promise that would never happen.  But, I don't claim any such inside knowledge.  I can only extrapolate from the information we have from the Devs so far.  That suggests to me that we have nothing to worry about. 

 

As for donations, the window of opportunity happens on the last Saturday of every month, when their donation window opens.  I've managed to get in the last couple of times.  It's very satisfying.

[Haijinx]

Thank you for the info Jimmy.  Its appreciated. 

============

 

 

There seems to be a fair amount of unnecessary nastiness in some of the posts in this thread.  

 

No one is forcing us to play COX on homecoming or at all. 

 

I Think the Homecoming crew deserves a heaping helping of slack, and a modicum of respect.  

 

 

[Abraxus]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Thank you for the info Jimmy.  Its appreciated. 

============

 

 

There seems to be a fair amount of unnecessary nastiness in some of the posts in this thread.  

 

No one is forcing us to play COX on homecoming or at all. 

 

I Think the Homecoming crew deserves a heaping helping of slack, and a modicum of respect.  

 

 

They deserve all the slack we can give them, and all the respect they've earned.  They do all of this for us, for love of the game, and in their free time.  There is not an emoticon sufficient to express it, but suffice to say you guys absolutely ROCK!

[SwitchFade]

Please lock this thread. The flagrant disregard for truth, respect and open communication has no place in our community.

[boggo2300]

13 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

As much as I like @Abraxus, the context in which it was posted was a little more like 'watching the enemy' than 'reviewing the progress'.

 

These are all just smoke screens anyway, the attacking of the messengers, IMO.

 

Humans just love to try and end an argument by attacking the messenger over the message though...that has not changed in a few thousand years that I can see...

 

This whole tribal mentality based war of one group being the 'right and true' CoH is really funny and sad to watch though.

As was said in another thread, the game is big enough for everyone, why snipe at other players/server runners that are just trying to have some fun?

Why?

What purpose does it serve other than personal dopamine from being mean to attack the other players?

It takes a pretty paranoid mi dset to jump to that conclusion, the way I read @Abraxas Comment, and I hope he corrects me if I'm wrong, was he was keeping an eye on their forums to see if they came up with cool stuff, or perhaps features that would tempt him to play there

[jubakumbi]

6 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

It takes a pretty paranoid mi dset to jump to that conclusion, the way I read @Abraxas Comment, and I hope he corrects me if I'm wrong, was he was keeping an eye on their forums to see if they came up with cool stuff, or perhaps features that would tempt him to play there

One persons reasonable is another persons paraniod delusion.

The whole problem is that too many players involved are jumping to conclusions because they have no facts, lots of time, and vivid imaginations.

No matter what is said, how it is presented, with or without factual information, it is weaponized and used in an attempt to denigrate the 'others'.

 

Nothing new, just gamers hating on other gamers because of uncontrollable brain chemistry that forces them to 'win'.

Same old story.

 

Our society now produces game services that provide a constant influx of 'information' to those that need a constant drip and has trained them to think when there is no drip, drip, drip, they need to panic.

 

The resurgence of this game in this state makes for fascinating interactions and some really wild theories and outlooks, IMO.

Loving it.

[jubakumbi]

9 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Please lock this thread. The flagrant disregard for truth, respect and open communication has no place in our community.

Just to be clear, these same topics were all over the original LIve forums.

The various groups fighting now existed then.

It's all part of the community.

[Abraxus]

6 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

It takes a pretty paranoid mi dset to jump to that conclusion, the way I read @Abraxas Comment, and I hope he corrects me if I'm wrong, was he was keeping an eye on their forums to see if they came up with cool stuff, or perhaps features that would tempt him to play there

That is why I initially joined.  The descriptions of what I considered unsavory conduct there, and articulated here in rebuttal to other comments, was what I saw developing there not long afterward, and ever since.  I considered quitting their Discord for that reason.  But, I stayed because there were still interesting developments happening, and I don't turn a blind eye to things I find unpalatable.  I try to stay cognizant of them, mainly so that I'll know, rather than conjecture when I comment about it. 

[Abraxus]

15 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

One persons reasonable is another persons paraniod delusion.

The whole problem is that too many players involved are jumping to conclusions because they have no facts, lots of time, and vivid imaginations.

No matter what is said, how it is presented, with or without factual information, it is weaponized and used in an attempt to denigrate the 'others'.

 

Nothing new, just gamers hating on other gamers because of uncontrollable brain chemistry that forces them to 'win'.

Same old story.

 

Our society now produces game services that provide a constant influx of 'information' to those that need a constant drip and has trained them to think when there is no drip, drip, drip, they need to panic.

 

The resurgence of this game in this state makes for fascinating interactions and some really wild theories and outlooks, IMO.

Loving it.

There is no paranoia, and I don't jump to conclusions.  But, I'm a firm believer in the adage "When someone tells you who they are, you take them at their word".  I don't create, or imagine what goes on there.  I observe it, and am repelled by it.  All one has to do is go to their Discord themselves to see for one's self.  I make no commentary on whether that represents their true feelings on things, or if it's just internet bravado fed by a sense of anonymity.  In either case, at best it demonstrates a lack of self-discipline, and worst case, it represents who they are when they are surrounded by their buds, and feel empowered to express it.  If it's not a true representation of their character, and moral fiber, then one should consider carefully how easy it is to draw negative conclusions from that kind of discourse, before joining in the chorus.

[jubakumbi]

12 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

There is no paranoia, and I don't jump to conclusions.  But, I'm a firm believer in the adage "When someone tells you who they are, you take them at their word".  I don't create, or imagine what goes on there.  I observe it, and am repelled by it.  All one has to do is go to their Discord themselves to see for one's self.  I make no commentary on whether that represents their true feelings on things, or if it's just internet bravado fed by a sense of anonymity.  In either case, at best it demonstrates a lack of self-discipline, and worst case, it represents who they are when they are surrounded by their buds, and feel empowered to express it.  If it's not a true representation of their character, and moral fiber, then one should consider carefully how easy it is to draw negative conclusions from that kind of discourse, before joining in the chorus.

You are the 'one persons reasonable' part, @Abraxus. 🙂

 

Those that would look at your words and turn them into an attack, especially with your post history, would be wrong.

You make it plain it's not your bag, it's not mine either, but I can see in how you worded what you said it would set off some people.

 

I live with a personality that points out facts.

A whole lot of people take blunt facts as an attack.

 

As an example, I was asked never to return to Sunday School as a child.

My mother thought I must have started a fight or something.

Nope.

The teachers, yes multiple, had a meeting with her to tell her I asked too many questions and I would not just 'believe' what they said.

Never believed anything without evidence.

But, IME, most people are happy to make stuff up to fill in the blanks, without waiting for any evidence, and magically the blanks get filled with what makes them happy to hate.

 

 

Right now, we have people that 'believe' a whole bunch of stuff about what's happening with the game and form my PoV, they are not bothered by facts most of the time, because facts are sparse and it's easier to make stuff up...

Edited November 5, 2019 by jubakumbi

[Abraxus]

1 minute ago, jubakumbi said:

You are the 'one persons reasonable' part, @Abraxus. 🙂

 

Those that would look at your words and turn them into an attack, especially with your post history, would be wrong.

You make it plain it's not your bag, it's not mine either, but I can see in how you worded what you said it would set off some people.

 

I live with a personality that points out facts.

A whole lot of people take blunt facts as an attack.

 

As an example, I was asked never to reurn to Sunday School as a child.

My mother thought I must have started a fight or something.

Nope.

The teachers, yes multiple, had a meeting with her to tell her I asked too many questions and I would not just 'believe' what they said.

Never believed anything without evidence.

But, IME, most people are happy to make stuff up to fill in the blanks, without waiting for any evidence, and magically the blanks get filled with what makes them happy to hate.

 

 

Right now, we have people that 'believe' a whole bunch of stuff about what's happening with the game and form my PoV, they are not bothered by facts most of the time, because facts are sparse and it's easier to make stuff up...

Yeah.  I won't go out and actively advocate against them everywhere due to my objections.  But, when asked, or when the subject comes up in conversation, I will respond with my observations.  I leave it to the reader to judge for themselves whether they find that behavior acceptable, and decide to join regardless.  But, nothing I have said can't be verified by looking there for oneself. 

[jubakumbi]

9 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

Yeah.  I won't go out and actively advocate against them everywhere due to my objections.  But, when asked, or when the subject comes up in conversation, I will respond with my observations.  I leave it to the reader to judge for themselves whether they find that behavior acceptable, and decide to join regardless.  But, nothing I have said can't be verified by looking there for oneself. 

As I stated, IMO, facts have little meaning at this point in the server vs. server battle.

It's all about who can play/produce CoH on the 'most moral and traditional' way for one group, while another group is ready to rip off the training wheels and 'get dirty'.

 

From my PoV, as I have stated as well, it looks like elementary school children fighting over who gets the ball, when if they would stop looking for ways to cut each other down, they might use that energy together to make a better game.

 

Instead, everyone get hung up on some vague idea of the 'right' thing to do and fights over those details.

 

I watch the same thing occur in multi-billion dollar companies over a couple camps or personalities that just decide they 'know better'.

Add in the gamer mentality of having to 'win' and we get the fireworks we see now.

Even the sunset of the Live game appears to be based around nothing more than a couple individuals in-fighting at NCSoft, according to some data.

 

Humans suck at learning from history.

[DougGraves]

Here is what the plan should be for Homecoming Development

 

1. Refactor the code using modern standards and techniques and include lots of comments if they do not exist.  This not only makes the code more stable, it is required if you are going to have a significant number of people working on it. 
2. Add automated testing to the code as much as possible so that testing is fast and reliable.
3. Create tools so that as little of the game content is code as possible.  Where this requires re-writing the code to support the tools - do it.
   1. Costumes
   2. Missions
   3. Zone changes (changing tree leaf color, changing buildings, etc)
   4. Adding/modifying villain types in existing groups and adding new villain groups
   5. Modifying existing powers
   6. Adding new powersets and ATs
4. As each toolset is created, create a subgroup dedicated to that content.  So once you have good tools for adding and testing costumes without requiring devs, create a costume group for costume pieces.
   1. Determine what the limits are for costume pieces.  Can we have unlimited pieces, or is there a limit due to memory, processing, etc.  If there is a limit, create a costume philosophy - generic pieces for more re-use, match NPC costume pieces to fit into the world, specific cool pieces for the coolness factor, etc.  Then have a group that creates costume pieces, accepts work from others, reviews and modifies them as needed, approves them, and adds them to the game.
   2. Determine what the limits are for missions.  Can we have unlimited pieces, or is there a limit due to memory, processing, etc.  Come up with a mission philosophy - following canon, are custom villains allowed, use of AVs, etc.  Decide if you want to revise the old missions, just add new missions, or remove old missions that are considered too bland or painful (looking at you patrol missions).
   3. Zone changes, etc..