Gambling Suggestion

[Player2]

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, I guess it's time we have this discussion again.

 

Homecoming's servers are in the U.S. In the U.S. gambling is mostly illegal. There are certain exceptions and licenses that are available in certain places, and for specific entities. And yes, these laws apply to online gambling as well. This means that it's highly likely that Homecoming wouldn't be able to secure a license and, if they did, it would be so expensive that Homecoming also certain couldn't afford it.

 

And because the last time we had this discussion people refused to believe me when I said that gambling is mostly illegal in the U.S. Here's proof:

 

Former Police Chief Willie Lovett spent 7.5 years in Federal prison for being involved in gambling without a license.

Not REAL gambling...  virtual gambling.  Fake currency for buy in and awards shouldn't violate the law any more so than using enhancement converters to try to get something better by playing again and again.

[Rudra]

20 minutes ago, Player2 said:

Not REAL gambling...  virtual gambling.  Fake currency for buy in and awards shouldn't violate the law any more so than using enhancement converters to try to get something better by playing again and again.

And with all the effort it would take to add a virtual gambling game to the game, why not just load up your preferred virtual gambling game and alt-tab to it when you go to gamble in the Giza?

[Grouchybeast]

I've always been disappointed that the slot machines in the Golden Giza didn't work.  I think it would be a fun little addition, if it didn't take too much dev effort.  You could have regular slot machines that take inf and pay out inf (with the house taking a cut as an inf sink).  Then you could have a VIP supers area where you pay inf and get one of the Mystic Fortune or Secondary Mutation buff.

 

(Gambling regulations don't apply to pretend gambling with pretend currency that can't be converted to real currency.  Willie Lovett got sent to prison for running an illegal gambling operation involving real dollars, not because he spent too much time playing Scorchy Slots on Neopets, a pretend gambling game that's existed on a COPPA compliant site for over twenty years.)

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

I've always been disappointed that the slot machines in the Golden Giza didn't work.  I think it would be a fun little addition, if it didn't take too much dev effort.  You could have regular slot machines that take inf and pay out inf (with the house taking a cut as an inf sink).  Then you could have a VIP supers area where you pay inf and get one of the Mystic Fortune or Secondary Mutation buff.

 

(Gambling regulations don't apply to pretend gambling with pretend currency that can't be converted to real currency.  Willie Lovett got sent to prison for running an illegal gambling operation involving real dollars, not because he spent too much time playing Scorchy Slots on Neopets, a pretend gambling game that's existed on a COPPA compliant site for over twenty years.)

As easy as it already is to get inf' in this game, the only way I would agree to adding gambling to the game that awards inf' is if the payout on a win was in the 1/4-1 inf' per inf' paid in with the 1:1 award being the jackpot. After all, it's just for 'flavor', right?

[Grouchybeast]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

As easy as it already is to get inf' in this game, the only way I would agree to adding gambling to the game that awards inf' is if the payout on a win was in the 1/4-1 inf' per inf' paid in with the 1:1 award being the jackpot. After all, it's just for 'flavor', right?

 

The slot machines should definitely be a net loss on average, just like real slot machines.  A 25% house take, maybe?  Then they're doing their bit as a small inf sink.   

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Player2 said:

Not REAL gambling...  virtual gambling.  Fake currency for buy in and awards shouldn't violate the law any more so than using enhancement converters to try to get something better by playing again and again.

Please respond to my post with your BAR Number, otherwise you're just making $#@& up.

 

I'm writing this while sitting at my desk at a law firm in the U.S., so please please don't try to explain to me how the law works in the U.S.

[Rudra]

28 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

The slot machines should definitely be a net loss on average, just like real slot machines.  A 25% house take, maybe?  Then they're doing their bit as a small inf sink.   

The slot machines shouldn't award anything. They are there if players want to RP. This isn't City of Gamblers. You don't see major characters in their comics at the casino gambling everything away. They may have casino scenes depending on the current plot, but major characters spend their time out fighting or committing crimes. If players want to RP at the casino? They can. I disagree with making the slot machines functional at all, let alone having them give out usable game rewards. If they have to exist as functional units and give out game rewards, it should always be a loss or break even so characters have a reason to leave the casino and be super. If they have to exist as functional (edit: but game rewards are not necessary), then they should cost 1 token and the character never runs out. They can award millions of tokens, but there is no tracker for the tokens and you just keep putting tokens in until you're ready to move on. (Edit: And tokens can never be traded for anything because they are not actually tracked.) Otherwise, just leave them alone as props for RP and decoration.

 

Edit again: And here's a question: if the house gets 25% of the take and the slot machines actually take and award inf', what about slot machines in SG bases? Does that go to an inf' pool for the SG?

Edited March 21 by Rudra

[Grouchybeast]

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Edit again: And here's a question: if the house gets 25% of the take and the slot machines actually take and award inf', what about slot machines in SG bases? Does that go to an inf' pool for the SG?

 

If you buy insps in a SG base, does the money go into an inf pool for the SG?  If you pay for a costume update in a base, does the inf go into a pool for the SG?  If you buy a recipe from an invention table in a SG base, does the inf go into a pool for the SG?  If you sell drops to a vendor in a SG base, do those drops go into a pool for the SG?

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

 

If you buy insps in a SG base, does the money go into an inf pool for the SG?  If you pay for a costume update in a base, does the inf go into a pool for the SG?  If you buy a recipe from an invention table in a SG base, does the inf go into a pool for the SG?  If you sell drops to a vendor in a SG base, do those drops go into a pool for the SG?

So it's just another vendor. Okay. All the more reason for it be a constant loss of inf rather than a chance for a gain. What are you buying with that inf' you are losing? The entertainment provided by the slot machine.

[Grouchybeast]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So it's just another vendor. Okay. All the more reason for it be a constant loss of inf rather than a chance for a gain. What are you buying with that inf' you are losing? The entertainment provided by the slot machine.

 

Honestly, I think they'd be more fun if they paid out in random buffs, like Mystic Fortune and Secondary Mutation do.  Then they'd be a pure inf sink, and the 'prizes' could be anything.  Small but common buffs, large but rare buffs, very occasionally turn into a Wailer...

[SeraphimKensai]

Despite my previous post (was it 3 or 4 years ago?) on the subject and the fact that I'd be supportive of gambling for influence/infamy in game at the Golden Giza, I wanted to say I respect @Rudra for holding fast to the their position against gambling all these years later as well.

Edited March 22 by SeraphimKensai
Edited for clarity.

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Please respond to my post with your BAR Number, otherwise you're just making $#@& up.

 

I'm writing this while sitting at my desk at a law firm in the U.S., so please please don't try to explain to me how the law works in the U.S.

 

So what is the legal difference between an inf 'slot machine' and using enhancement converters?  Would Winter Packs also count as illegal gambling?

Edited March 22 by Grouchybeast

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, Grouchybeast said:

So what is the legal difference between an inf 'slot machine' and using enhancement converters?

Probably nothing at this point.

 

However, lawmakers in several states, and the IRS, have tried in the past to link in-game currencies to real world value thus allowing them to be taxed. I don't know all of the laws in all of the states so it's possible that some states have already passed laws that do just that. If in-game currencies are linked to real world value then current gambling laws would apply.

 

Also, the U.S. Federal government does have laws that cover online gambling. I don't know if they would apply because it's not my specialty. And, unlike most people online, I know enough about the law to know that I don't know enough about the law, except in my specialty, to make a definitive statement.

 

The U.S. has billions of laws on the books. So anyone, even an attorney, who claims to "know all of the laws" is flat out lying.

[Grouchybeast]

3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

However, lawmakers in several states, and the IRS, have tried in the past to link in-game currencies to real world value thus allowing them to be taxed. I don't know all of the laws in all of the states so it's possible that some states have already passed laws that do just that. If in-game currencies are linked to real world value then current gambling laws would apply.

 

All the instances of that seemed to involve game currencies that had mechanisms to cash in and out to real money, though, making them analogous to casino chips.

 

Given the very large number of video games that have had gambling game elements for decades now, it seems like if it was something worth worrying about in CoH then there would be one single instance you could point to of a game being required to have a gaming license for their fake in-game gambling.  I was being slightly silly with the Neopets Scorchy Slots example (although it's true) but really is ubiquitous.  Stardew Valley has gambling.

[Oubliette_Red]

16 hours ago, Rudra said:

As easy as it already is to get inf' in this game, the only way I would agree to adding gambling to the game that awards inf' is if the payout on a win was in the 1/4-1 inf' per inf' paid in with the 1:1 award being the jackpot. After all, it's just for 'flavor', right?

 

I'd rather than if they awarded anything, it'd be inspirations and such with costs for pulls the same as buying them from vendors/Auto-Doc/Tree of Wonders. With maybe a slight chance of getting a larger inspiration.

 

Granted it would need animation to be created for the pulls, both for characters and the machines.

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

14 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

All the instances of that seemed to involve game currencies that had mechanisms to cash in and out to real money, though, making them analogous to casino chips.

IIRC that's not entirely correct. Lawmakers have talked about taxing "WoW Gold" for example, and you can't cash it out.

 

14 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

Given the very large number of video games that have had gambling game elements for decades now, it seems like if it was something worth worrying about in CoH...

Yes, and a lot of those executives have been repeatedly called in front of various congresses and parliments to explain why certain elements shouldn't be classified as gambling. Google "EA surprise mechanics" if you'd like to watch some videos about it.

 

I'm not worried about it, I'm simply trying to point out that it isn't as simple as a lot of online people believe it to be. A lot of those companies may have servers in other countries or they may have licenses, you don't know.

 

Also, people talk about "The Law" without realizing that they have no clue what they're talking about, and that's a personal peeve of mine. People grow up watching Law and Order or NCIS and think they know as much about the law as an attorney does. I deal with these people all of the time at work. People will literally call my law firm and argue that what we're doing is illegal and when I respond "Well, the judge didn't think so that's why he signed the court order" they have the gall to get angry with me and demand to speak to my manager.

[Frozen Burn]

17 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

IIRC that's not entirely correct. Lawmakers have talked about taxing "WoW Gold" for example, and you can't cash it out.

 

Yes, and a lot of those executives have been repeatedly called in front of various congresses and parliments to explain why certain elements shouldn't be classified as gambling. Google "EA surprise mechanics" if you'd like to watch some videos about it.

 

I'm not worried about it, I'm simply trying to point out that it isn't as simple as a lot of online people believe it to be. A lot of those companies may have servers in other countries or they may have licenses, you don't know.

 

Also, people talk about "The Law" without realizing that they have no clue what they're talking about, and that's a personal peeve of mine. People grow up watching Law and Order or NCIS and think they know as much about the law as an attorney does. I deal with these people all of the time at work. People will literally call my law firm and argue that what we're doing is illegal and when I respond "Well, the judge didn't think so that's why he signed the court order" they have the gall to get angry with me and demand to speak to my manager.

 

Clearly, you've never played SWOTOR either.  It's by Bioware and all housed in the US.  You can gamble with virtual currency and get virtual rewards in the Nar Shadaa casino.  They even have monthly events for it.  It's been like that for years with no issue.  

 

It's similar to all those fundraising events that non-profits do where attendees buy a ticket to enter, and are basically handed chips to gamble away to earn donated prizes.  Yes, there are legal details to navigate, but it's been done for decades without issue.  I've attended many of them working in non-profits most of my life.

 

Thank you for your diligence and keeping an eye on legalities.  But there is precedence and a way forward that could happen that is NOT illegal.  

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

14 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

Clearly, you've never played SWOTOR either.  It's by Bioware and all housed in the US.  You can gamble with virtual currency and get virtual rewards in the Nar Shadaa casino.  They even have monthly events for it.  It's been like that for years with no issue.

I still have screenshots of my character in SWTOR's open beta and I was subscribed for years. Yes, I am aware that they have in-game gambling. Did they get a license to do that? Is it allowed in their specific jurisdiction? I don't know and neither do you. Just because Bioware/EA can afford it doesn't mean Homecoming can. That's what I pointed out earlier.

 

16 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

Thank you for your diligence and keeping an eye on legalities.  But there is precedence and a way forward that could happen that is NOT illegal.

There's precedence? Really? Could you please cite the case that established that precedence?

 

Look, I'm not trying to be a jerk, and if you go back and read my posts you'll see that at no point did I say that it couldn't happen. What I said was that it's unlikely and that there are possible legal issues and you all don't understand what those issues are.

[Rudra]

12 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Grand Theft Auto Online is a good example of this. They have the Diamond Resort and Casino with a Lucky Wheel, slot machines, and horse races. These are not available in all countries.

 

For Golden Giza to have the slot machines do something, it would have to be something that wasn't gambling. Maybe the Lucky Wheel approach could work. You have a chance to play a game and win a prize at no cost to the characters, so it isn't gambling so much as a gacha.

And what would they win? Random inspirations? That takes away from the nurses, combat medics, and other inspiration vendors that provide those while offloading some of the character's inf'. Recipes? That takes away from the purchasable recipe sources at no cost in inf' to the character. So now it is a free inf' generation stream in a game already awash in inf'. Maybe enhancements? That takes away from the contacts and their purchasable enhancements and also provides a free inf' generation stream. Gachas work by requiring players to dump funds into the game in the hopes of not getting trash. Playing a safe game for rewards isn't a gacha and is easily abused without a cost of some sort to make it difficult at best to get anything.

 

(Edit: And just like making the slot machines work as real slot machines, I oppose adding gachas to this game. Gachas suck and are meant to siphon real money from the players.)

Edited March 22 by Rudra

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Krimson said:

We have more weird currencies in the form of Aethyrs. Handing out a trickle wouldn't stop players from getting them from regular content.  Or maybe get meta and hand out tip missions? I think the point here is walking into a Casino and expecting something in the casino to do SOMETHING. I don't see anything wrong with wanting objects to interact in some way.

It's because of requests like that the live devs were opposed to just giving us pool tables. Players asked for pool tables for RP. The devs said no because of all the mechanics they would have to build into the object to make it work right. They finally consented when players pointed out it was just for RP and did not need to be playable. Not everything in the game has to be interactable. Why can't I interact with the lab in my base to do various research and mix volatile components? Why can't I get into that car parked on the side of the door, hotwire it, and speed off? Because this isn't a chemical mixing game or Grand Theft Auto. Leave the slot machines as props for scenery and RP. Leave the gambling out of CoX. I hated the lockboxes in CO. I hate what gambling does to games that don't start with the intent of making use of it. And in a game where we are supposed to be super heroes or villains, spending all our time gambling at the casino makes no sense. There is already an easy way to make the slot machines seem to work. Open your preferred gambling game in another window when you reach the slot machine and gamble away. And if you leave the gambling window smaller than the game window, it looks like a mini game and leaves your chat window available so you can see messages still. But you have to tab back to the game to chat? You are just exiting the mini game window to chat, and then you restore the gambling window to resume gambling.

[Luminara]

 

[Krimson]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

It's because of requests like that the live devs were opposed to just giving us pool tables. Players asked for pool tables for RP. The devs said no because of all the mechanics they would have to build into the object to make it work right. They finally consented when players pointed out it was just for RP and did not need to be playable. Not everything in the game has to be interactable. Why can't I interact with the lab in my base to do various research and mix volatile components? Why can't I get into that car parked on the side of the door, hotwire it, and speed off? Because this isn't a chemical mixing game or Grand Theft Auto. Leave the slot machines as props for scenery and RP. Leave the gambling out of CoX. I hated the lockboxes in CO. I hate what gambling does to games that don't start with the intent of making use of it. And in a game where we are supposed to be super heroes or villains, spending all our time gambling at the casino makes no sense. There is already an easy way to make the slot machines seem to work. Open your preferred gambling game in another window when you reach the slot machine and gamble away. And if you leave the gambling window smaller than the game window, it looks like a mini game and leaves your chat window available so you can see messages still. But you have to tab back to the game to chat? You are just exiting the mini game window to chat, and then you restore the gambling window to resume gambling.

Suggestions removed. You're welcome.

[Player2]

19 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

However, lawmakers in several states, and the IRS, have tried in the past to link in-game currencies to real world value thus allowing them to be taxed. I don't know all of the laws in all of the states so it's possible that some states have already passed laws that do just that. If in-game currencies are linked to real world value then current gambling laws would apply.

If the fake currency of a game like this can be said to have real world value and thus taxed, then using a gambling mechanic wouldn't be the only way to do it.  If you work to acquire it in game, then it should be like a second job with taxable income.  I hope no one in Congress is reading this and tries to make it happen, because that will kill a lot of gaming.

[Grouchybeast]

On 3/22/2024 at 4:03 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yes, and a lot of those executives have been repeatedly called in front of various congresses and parliments to explain why certain elements shouldn't be classified as gambling. Google "EA surprise mechanics" if you'd like to watch some videos about it.

 

I'm not sure I found the right thing, but the links I did find seemed to be talking about loot boxes, i.e. items bought with real world currency.  I was wondering if you had any examples of what we're talking about in CoH, gambling with pure fake internal currency that was still required to have a gaming license.  Otherwise it does seems like worrying you might need to comply with real estate regulations to play Monopoly.