Global Knockback->Knockdown IO for Travel Powers/Rest

[Myrmidon]

8 hours ago, Haijinx said:

On an Eng blaster you can easily get off twice as many useful Eng Torrents and Explosive Blasts if they have KB->KD in them.  

 

Since position no longer matters, its like bowling with hand grenades. 

Energy may finally make the playlist.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

or at least play as cool as it looks (subjectively speaking)

[Call Me Awesome]

On 12/28/2019 at 11:03 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

or at least play as cool as it looks (subjectively speaking)

Back in issue 3 an Energy blaster was one of the first characters I rolled up.  By level 10 the knock back was enough of an issue, particularly on a team, that I deleted and never rolled another.  Even today I wouldn't choose one due to that exact issue although I'd be much more able to manage the KB issue due to experience.

 

Single target KB can be manageable, AOE KB requires planning and forethought to use without causing havoc to your teammates.

 

I have run several Peacebringers over the years and had to learn the KB, for the one here on HC I've gone ahead and tossed KB/KD IO's into the Nova powers and Foot Stomp (forget the PB power name).  It costs several slots I'd like to use elsewhere but it makes it much more playable and team friendly.

[Galaxy Brain]

Can we agree that it appears to be AoE KB specifically that is the issue, and not so much ST KB?

[Call Me Awesome]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Can we agree that it appears to be AoE KB specifically that is the issue, and not so much ST KB?

It's certainly the big problem for teams, while inexperienced use of KB can be an issue at any time it's the AOE version that is the major problem on teams.

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Can we agree that it appears to be AoE KB specifically that is the issue, and not so much ST KB?

Well the very stupid could make ST KB an issue.  But mainly its a non thing.  

 

AOE KB though yeah.  

[Saiyajinzoningen]

also the inconsistency is annoying

[DrRocket]

I like the idea very much, especially if the IO can be placed in an inherent power such as brawl, sprint, leap, etc. This way the switch is not robbing the player from an IO slot that could very well be need to gain IO set benefits.

 

I would applaud the concept of inherent powers being IO slottable if implemented, the only inherent power that can be IO slotted is sprint that I am aware of.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Just looking at Blasters at the moment

 

 

It looks like there are some patterns (50% chance for mag ~3ish on the TAoEs), but then everything else is sort of scattered.

[Myrmidon]

On 12/29/2019 at 3:28 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

Can we agree that it appears to be AoE KB specifically that is the issue, and not so much ST KB?

 I’m willing to compromise.

[RabbitUp]

What if Sudden Acceleration actually gave some useful stat besides the conversion? Overwhelming Force at least provides some damage bonus.

Accuracy I reckon would be a useful stat for the widest range of skills.

Edited January 1, 2020 by RabbitUp

[Saiyajinzoningen]

14 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Just looking at Blasters at the moment

 

 

It looks like there are some patterns (50% chance for mag ~3ish on the TAoEs), but then everything else is sort of scattered.

oh i love that graph its so cute i dunno how to add stuff so but u forgot to include the kheldians if i you can, TY

 

 

 

[Steampunkette]

14 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Just looking at Blasters at the moment

 

 

It looks like there are some patterns (50% chance for mag ~3ish on the TAoEs), but then everything else is sort of scattered.

Different powers have different functions. Umbral Torrent, for example, deals less damage than Energy Torrent because it's a Control/Debuff power with 100% control efficacy while Energy Torrent is a Damage/Control power with 50% control efficacy.

 

Meanwhile the Dark Blast set has no other KB, while Energy Blast has a ton of chance at it. Resulting in greater KB based control from the Nrg set while Dark doesn't get much at all, comparatively. Same as Radiation Blast.

 

These powers don't exist in a Vacuum.

[Galaxy Brain]

They don't exist in a vacuum, but 100% knockback on 10 targets at mag 8 vs 60% chance (6 target avg) of mag 5 vs 25% chance of mag 1.6 on (3 target avg) is just weird and causes weird chaos. 

 

Umbral Torrent is fine since you have 100% control over it as you said. Haze is weird in that it is downright unreliable and only barely knocks back. Energy Torrent, while dealing more damage, also oddly has a more than 50% chance to deal decent KB so its in a weird middle ground. Also, combined with the other AoEs in the set it then makes it weird to line up outside of a vacuum if some targets get spread while others don't. It can be frustrating when you try to line up your own AoEs only for one guy to be pushe dout of reach of the other randomly depending on the map.

 

The same thing could be said in a team setting. If somebody has a power that is 100% controlled KB then they can at least leverage it reliably. Looking at say, Electron Haze and its just like "why isnt this Knockdown?" given the rarity and weak strength

Edited January 1, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Saiyajinzoningen]

*sends galaxy brain friend request cause great minds and all that*

[Heavensrun]

 

On 12/13/2019 at 1:42 PM, Call Me Awesome said:

A global KB-KD proc would be a beautiful thing, as a suggestion simply change the Overwhelming Force IO to a Global instead of creating an "orphan" IO or another new set.  That solves the KB problem and allows those who want to selectively keep KB to use the Sudden Acceleration IO instead.  Admittedly I don't know of any specifics but since we already have other global effect IO's in the game (LOTG 7.5% recharge for example) it should be doable without much trouble.

NOPE on this.  I understand the desire for a global KB-KD, but don't take sudden acceleration away.  I -like- being able to make concious decisions per-power on whether I want KB or KD.  AOEs?  KD every time, but some of my squishier toons like to have a GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ME power for emergencies.  Plus, honestly, KB is pretty fun if used carefully.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

8 hours ago, Heavensrun said:

 

NOPE on this.  I understand the desire for a global KB-KD, but don't take sudden acceleration away.  I -like- being able to make concious decisions per-power on whether I want KB or KD.  AOEs?  KD every time, but some of my squishier toons like to have a GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ME power for emergencies.  Plus, honestly, KB is pretty fun if used carefully.

yup i get this, the problem is sudden acceleration as a set makes zero sense. heres a  bunch of ios that increase knockback and heres 1 more that takes it all away....what?

[Heavensrun]

5 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

yup i get this, the problem is sudden acceleration as a set makes zero sense. heres a  bunch of ios that increase knockback and heres 1 more that takes it all away....what?

Yeah, I get that, I'm not disagreeing with critique of the set as a whole, just asking that we don't replace the proc with a global proc.

[seebs]

A lot of the design space here, I think, is caused by the use of "knockback under mag 1" for "knockdown". if we instead had knockdown, knockback, and knockup as three separate traits, so you could have a mag 20 knockdown, which was not the same as a mag 0.1 knockback, that would make it a lot easier to do things like "slot this for massively increased knock, also make the knock direction down".

 

But that's a pretty huge change, and unlikely to be viable.

[Galaxy Brain]

Well, if KB got vectored that could be a thing. Actually, doesnt Air Superiority do something similar?

[Bossk_Hogg]

3 hours ago, Heavensrun said:

Yeah, I get that, I'm not disagreeing with critique of the set as a whole, just asking that we don't replace the proc with a global proc.

Honestly just remove all the KB from the set and replace it with damage, recharge, end reduction, etc and it would be good. No one uses the set for enhancing knockback.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Well, if KB got vectored that could be a thing. Actually, doesnt Air Superiority do something similar?

i think it has a Knock up effect and a -fly tied into it

[Call Me Awesome]

27 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i think it has a Knock up effect and a -fly tied into it

Knock UP is a bit more useful than Knock DOWN as a general rule since it's slightly longer duration before the mob gets back to punching your face, and it's a different mechanic.  I wonder if it's feasible to exchange KB for KU?  Knowing how things work it'd likely mean editing every KB and KD power in the game.

[Rathulfr]

On 12/29/2019 at 3:25 PM, Call Me Awesome said:

Back in issue 3 an Energy blaster was one of the first characters I rolled up.  By level 10 the knock back was enough of an issue, particularly on a team, that I deleted and never rolled another.

My first character back in Issue 2 was an Energy² Blaster, and knockback was one of the reasons I loved it enough to play it for 8 years as my main.  It's also the first character I re-created on Homecoming.  So I'm definitely in the "Pro-KB" camp.

 

However, I have seen the wisdom of using the OF/SA IO procs in my AoE KB powers, Explosive Blast and Nova (I don't take Energy Torrent, because I hate cones in general).  But I still like to keep KB in my single-target attacks.

 

I support the idea of giving players some kind of global KB-to-KD option, as long as it doesn't take away my options to keep KB in my ST attacks and KD in my AoEs, without compromising set bonuses.

 

I also agree with @Steampunkette's slippery-slope argument: when we give players the option to globally convert KB to KD, then that "option" will soon become "required" to join teams, which is effectively "mandatory".  There have already been discussions about it in this thread.

 

The fact of the matter is this: knockback is part of the fundamental design of the game, and a key feature of many ATs and power sets.  This is why the original devs so vehemently resisted adding an SA-like proc IO in the first place, and only in the later life of the game did they limit it to OF, which is a unique set (only one per build).  

 

The bottom line is simple: knockback is a feature, not a bug (even if you don't happen to like it).  It's something that all players -- solo or teamed -- need to learn to live with if they plan to play the game as designed. 

 

Sometimes I feel like these supposedly innocuous proposals to make it "optional" are just a backdoor means of breaking the cottage rule (don't alter the fundamental design characteristics of an existing power, set, or AT).

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Rathulfr]

On 12/27/2019 at 10:14 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

but still I imagine the following is what Power Push should be:

 

Fling one dude across the map and they splat into something anyways.

Please note that Captain Marvel is playing solo, and using a single-target KB. 😉

Edited January 2, 2020 by Rathulfr