Fade and Farsight Should Not Benefit from External Buffs

[siolfir]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You use any incarnate powers?

Clarion Partial Core for mez protection. It's available in my regular PvE play, why wouldn't I?

I also used Ionic to get the attention of some of the mobs, but I could have been working harder to stay alive by using attacks. I just assumed that the point was the gather and stay alive?

 

Edit to address the other questions/comments edited into the post I quoted originally:

Chrono Shift is a self heal (and heal over time) along with Temporal Mending; those are the two self heals I was referring to.

 

Indefinitely I would have to see; it's mostly a matter of the RNG. I would also clarify that since the issue is surviving burst damage that gets through your defense it's mostly a matter of hit points.

Edited January 5, 2020 by siolfir

[Galaxy Brain]

 

 

 

Well I missed out on a lot here lol. 

 

Catching up, Fade is legit bugged and it seems we all agree that should be fixed. As for Farsight, it is the only such power of its kind no? A click on yourself that can grant that much defense via PB on top of all the other goodies TM gives?

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, siolfir said:

Clarion Partial Core for mez protection. It's available in my regular PvE play, why wouldn't I?

I also used Ionic to get the attention of some of the mobs, but I could have been working harder to stay alive by using attacks. I just assumed that the point was the gather and stay alive?

I dont know if thats a fair comparison, i dont even have an alpha slotted yet because i havent played the character in months.  I am much more of a meleer than control or ranged.

 

Try it without mez protection just for kicks.

[siolfir]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I dont know if thats a fair comparison, i dont even have an alpha slotted yet because i havent played the character in months.  I am much more of a meleer than control or ranged.

 

Try it without mez protection just for kicks.

4:14 with 8 GMs (4 Strophoria - the ones with the holds, 2 Lattice, 2 Quarries) without Clarion; you can make it between heal recharges if you don't get hit by back-to-back holds, which is what happened. 2 holds and one footstomp got through, the DoT from the second hold got me.

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, siolfir said:

4:14 with 8 GMs (4 Strophoria - the ones with the holds, 2 Lattice, 2 Quarries) without Clarion; you can make it between heal recharges if you don't get hit by back-to-back holds, which is what happened. 2 holds and one footstomp got through, the DoT from the second hold got me.

Same thing happened to me, what is your alpha out of curiosity?

Edited January 5, 2020 by Infinitum

[siolfir]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

what is your alpha?

Vigor Partial Core.

 

Edit to add: if there are any more specific questions about this build or challenge, just PM me. We've derailed the thread enough - suffice it to say that I'm satisfied with the capability of an average player (me) to build and survive well with Time Manipulation, even without Power Boosted Farsight. Thus my shrugging and saying "sure" to removing the ability to boost it. Defenses are in the 50s, resistances are 26-35%, plus Time's Juncture adds -tohit and -damage. She survives much more than my SR Sentinel, who has a similar number of hit points with the same defense levels.

Edited January 5, 2020 by siolfir

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, GM Mathison said:

@oedipus_tex,

 

I think to tackle the perceived problem here is:

• Gather buff powers need to be looked at if they are consistent.
• Ally only powers do they make sense with the current state of the game? If made to Gather buff style would those numbers need adjustment?
• Damage boosting damage resistance granting powers needs to be fixed. This is a problem not unique to Fade.
• Does having this defensive value or if other ally only powers now affect caster if those were to change would that offer too much imbalance to ATs with access to support sets? Again looking at this from the lense that Armor sets can cap their defenses easily.

Also take into account it isn't just the caster that benefits any team mate in range benefits. Most with Armor sets won't care as they are covered. So my question is, what benefit is there to reduce the defense of already less defensive teammates? If it is because other support sets are lacking that same omph then a revisit to support sets as whole might make boosted defense powers seem less like outliers.

 

There are other factors in play here that are being covered in other topics in regards to perceived challenge mobs offer groups and how damage has escalated in the late game. Good suggestions and observations here folks, keep them coming and some of this is going to just be opinion, what one finds easy may not be for another.

 

Hiya, I'm gonna answer each question 1:1. Other players probably have additional feedback. 

 

 

Gather buff powers need to be looked at if they are consistent.

From what I know, they mostly are. "Gather Powers" is an informal way to classify powers that have a PBAoE effect and a Recharge implies you fire them when a bunch of people are close by to maximize the effect, because the Recharge time is a limitation.

 

Example powers:

• Empathy
  • Recovery Aura
  • Regen Aura
• Radiation
  • Accelerate Metabolism
• Nature
  • Regrowth
  • Wild Bastion
  • Overgrowth
• Time
  • Farsight 
  • Chrono Shift
• Dark (Controller only)
  • Fade

 

Note that of these examples, Farsight is one of the few (only? I didn't check all the ones in Nature) "Gather Power" with a Recharge that generously runs into its duration. Time characters are not under any strong pressure to recast Farsight before it drops. On simple enhancements the effect drops right about when it recharges. On IOed builds it recharges about 60 seconds before expiring and you could flatten a few spawns without stopping to refresh it.

 

 

 

Ally only powers do they make sense with the current state of the game? If made to Gather buff style would those numbers need adjustment?

This is a complex topic and I know a lot of other players will want to weigh in. There are five main power sets with a stake in this discussion:

• Force Field
• Sonic Resonance
• Cold Domination
• Thermal 
• Empathy

But even powersets like Storm. Time, and Poison have ally-only buffs.

 

My general feeling right now is that leaving most of these powers ally-only will save you the most headaches. The ally-buff powers were designed to be very strong, so any ability to self cast them will mess with Sentinel balance. Also, on Masterminds and Controllers, those buffs can often be placed on pets. So there's a lot to talk about.


Damage boosting damage resistance granting powers needs to be fixed. This is a problem not unique to Fade.

Fade is the only example that comes to mind right away. Most other powers (e.g. Cold Domination's shields) are correctly flagged to prevent the bug.

 

Now, you guys could decide to fix the system that writes Damage bonuses over to Resistance powers. I have no idea how complex that would be. You could then unflag the Cold shields and other powers so that Power Boost works. It seems like a lot of work though. I know nothing about the volume of work required to get stuff done.

 

You'd also face a lot of mad Force Fielders since the ability to Power Boost shields has long been FF's main leg up on Cold. 🙂

 

 

Does having this defensive value or if other ally only powers now affect caster if those were to change would that offer too much imbalance to ATs with access to support sets? Again looking at this from the lense that Armor sets can cap their defenses easily.

 

For this I think you should look at the armor values for Defenders and Controllers within set. For Defenders a top-level Defense shield provides 13.3% Defense (Force Field Generator). An average one (Arctic Fog) provides about +5. Dispersion Bubble is in the middle with +10. Treat these values how you would treat an armor set for any other AT. If a set is offering long-term Defense higher than about 13%, it's extremely high. React to this like you would if you saw a Tanker or Sentinel armor significantly above normal values. 

[Leogunner]

38 minutes ago, GM Mathison said:

Also take into account it isn't just the caster that benefits any team mate in range benefits. Most with Armor sets won't care as they are covered. So my question is, what benefit is there to reduce the defense of already less defensive teammates? If it is because other support sets are lacking that same omph then a revisit to support sets as whole might make boosted defense powers seem less like outliers.

Objectively, changing 2 powers (and maybe a couple more) across 2 powersets would not have as drastic an effect on gameplay, meta-builds and even PvP as changing, like, 10+ powers just to equal out 2 outlier powers like Farsight/Fade.  And such a change would occur over 4 ATs!  Considering the various iterations of changes going to Tanker and multiply that.  So to me, it seems like this consideration is rooted in not wanting to disappoint or anger players with a nerf.  The paradigm has always been that force multiplying ATs aren't as sturdy, it's the price they pay.  Are we throwing that paradigm away or is this all merely a thought experiment?

 

I'm still on the boat of letting both powers be affected by Power Boost.  I just think their duration needs to be shortened by half at least.  And if we're talking paradigm shifts, reassessing the duration of all buffs to require more maintenance might be a way to balance their power levels as you noted the casting time being the tax.

[GM Mathison]

I've seen the suggestion to look at ally only powers and changing them. It is very broad and needs its own topic to really shine I agree with you there.

 

The damage boosting damage resistance bug needs to be fixed. Clearly it wasn't simple otherwise it would have been fixed back in the day when it was noticed. I'm not on the code side so really can't comment further on the difficulty of fully fixing it or making a quick fix like what was done with cold. I know they are aware of it though.

 

Another thing to consider in all of this if the set as a whole is fun to play from 1 to 50 too. I know with some of the ally only powers or lower value powers compared to what we've seen added in the later part of the game it is a struggle to play. Some get past this by power leveling and full sets and incarnates and then it is good. That doesn't seem like the best design then if the set is only good at max level.

 

Also looking at the design shift from all new sets that were added at the later part of the game compared to those from launch. All of the newer sets seem to have scaled things upwards a bit. It seems like the new baseline was shifting and the game shut down before all old sets could get a revisit. I also look at the changes made to Blasters towards the end their secondaries got a really nice boost and in some cases their AoE mez is now better than Control based sets in terms of recharge.

 

Good analysis though this shows that there is the need for review. I'm not a powers dev though just a guy that has played a lot of Control and Support based sets and some are more fun than others currently. I've been playing other ATs to feel out the perspective.

 

Thinking about the problem at large if the defense boost added by Power Boost went away when ITS duration ended, then it would feel less needed and feel like more of a boost when you need it. However again I don't know how much of a challenge that would be to work in the current power framework. Then Power Boost would be just a boost and not a multiplier.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

I do think Farsight should still be able to benefit from its own +Defense buff and that part not changed.

Is there a typo in this statement or am I just not getting what it means?

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Is there a typo in this statement or am I just not getting what it means?

 

Meaning, when Farsight is cast it should also affect the caster. As opposed to an ally-only shield that affects only people other than the caster. 

[Frosticus]

imo given the short duration of powerboost it was probably intended to be reactive. ie short powerful heals, burst sapping, or alpha absorbing with a boost in weave/maneuvers.

 

With it benefiting 2 min duration powers on the magnitude of farsight it becomes an even better proactive tool. *remember ff ally buffs used to be single target. 

 

To be even and consistent maybe powerboost should grant  2 min +special. That way everyone can benefit from it more equally. 

 

If no one cares that farsight is granting as much personal def as it is under powerboost then hurricane, or dispersion bubble should be allowed to operate that way full time too. And find a way to get traps ffg in on this too because there is no indication to a player that hasn't dug into the code that farsight will grant them heaps of def with powerboost, but ffg wont. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Frosticus

[Monos King]

On 1/3/2020 at 7:27 AM, oedipus_tex said:

Has anyone tried Soul Drain > Fade? I'll check it out when I get home from work today

Wait what is this about the relationship between res and damage and why?

[Frosticus]

On 1/3/2020 at 7:27 AM, oedipus_tex said:

 

I didn't realize Fade actually had Resistance in it.

 

You are correct. It is a bug/oversight that the power receives external buffs if it contains a Resistance component. I haven't checked to see if damage bonuses boost its Resistance, but if what we know about other Resistance powers is true, they might be. Has anyone tried Soul Drain > Fade? I'll check it out when I get home from work today. 

 

You may have already posted this:

 

It just goes up  to the damage cap.

So 9.38x4 = 37.52 resistance.

 

how you get there isn't of consequence to the cap. So any combination of res slotting and damage boosting will get you there.

 

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

There is a fair bit of behavior in this thread that comes across as head in the sand or a line drawn in the sand. Some tends to feel a lot more like trolling while using the thin veneer of discussing the topic to throw some shade at others.

 

Since SR especially seems to be used as the warrior AT mitigation set held up as a comparison Ill try to keep the following simple.

 

Super Reflexes can reach function with just its autos, a high recharge build, and Elude. Now I know many these days forsake the final tier crash powers these days. And in toggle heavy builds I myself do the same. However all SR needs is its autos, its clicky super defense and mes pro which can easily triple perma stack granting a level of KB pro to stand toe to toe with the strongest KB in the game like no one else can, It also comes with the perk of basically built in SS and SJ especially if you also slotted quickness up abit. Finally its basically immune to debuffing something far too many seem to be willfully ignoring.

 

There is nothing the powers under topic can do that comes close to the above for as few power choices and as easy to use. I mean the biggest challenge to the above is having to manage 2 click powers you want to always be using in addition to hasten.

 

Oh and one final parting fact. calling to gather for buffs is generally seen as a casual or newb buffer behavior. Skilled buffers take the time on a team to watch the team and learn their play approach. They take note of the alpha players running at the head of the pack and focus their power on them and if the others are close enough cool if not they dont matter. Its basically battlefield triage. You dont try to support everyone, you support those that basically function without support, not those in need of it.  My namesake blaster is a great example of this. he doesnt need support, can and  will lead any pack taking point and eager for blood. Give me evena  little support, especially a kin and I become game breaking, the other people on the team just helping to speed up what is not a question of if we will win but when.

 

Nothing Ive seen presented in this thread suggest a need for nerfing, does suggest the age for buff other only powers may have seen its setting sun, as many especially those building their defs to be solo capable offenders are ignoring buff other only powers  making those powers less and less seen in game play outside of static teams.

 

Because thats a real factor to ponder. if most people are ignoring powers they cant use on themselves, then do those powers need to even be as they are? If powers are seen as only fun part of the time and really only on those you team with, are they worth having at all? I mean Im a big user of powers like veng, I lead TFs and teams all the time, I get my use out of team only powers, however if I am in the mood to mainly solo those toons and builds tend to not even be considered as something fun to play on.

[Frosticus]

3 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

There is a fair bit of behavior in this thread that comes across as head in the sand or a line drawn in the sand. Some tends to feel a lot more like trolling while using the thin veneer of discussing the topic to throw some shade at others.

 

Since SR especially seems to be used as the warrior AT mitigation set held up as a comparison Ill try to keep the following simple.

 

Super Reflexes can reach function with just its autos, a high recharge build, and Elude. Now I know many these days forsake the final tier crash powers these days. And in toggle heavy builds I myself do the same. However all SR needs is its autos, its clicky super defense and mes pro which can easily triple perma stack granting a level of KB pro to stand toe to toe with the strongest KB in the game like no one else can, It also comes with the perk of basically built in SS and SJ especially if you also slotted quickness up abit. Finally its basically immune to debuffing something far too many seem to be willfully ignoring.

 

There is nothing the powers under topic can do that comes close to the above for as few power choices and as easy to use. I mean the biggest challenge to the above is having to manage 2 click powers you want to always be using in addition to hasten.

Ok, but in this example what does your SR do for the other 3+ min that elude is down?

[Wavicle]

23 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

Ok, but in this example what does your SR do for the other 3+ min that elude is down?

And how much of a DPS loss is triple stacked practiced brawler?

Edited January 20, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[Wavicle]

25 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

There is a fair bit of behavior in this thread that comes across as head in the sand or a line drawn in the sand. Some tends to feel a lot more like trolling while using the thin veneer of discussing the topic to throw some shade at others.

 This argument is what we call specious. It may sound reasonable but in fact it is not. The fact that you can compare just a couple of powers from time to an armor set is exactly the problem. The point isn’t that SR is over powered because of what it can do. The point is that time can do all that, minus the mez protection which can be provided in other ways, and it still has a bunch of other powers. Not SR. SR can do what you described, and nothing else.

 

So I’m sorry, and I don’t mean to be insulting, but it is really rich for you to be accusing other people of sticking their head in the sand with an argument like this.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Super Reflexes can reach function with just its autos, a high recharge build, and Elude.

How does a Super Reflex build get high recharge?  Oh, IOs?  Yeah, that's outside of the realm of balance discussion on this topic.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

8 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Ok, but in this example what does your SR do for the other 3+ min that elude is down?

Oh you mean you dont know how to get eludes down time to less then the duration of a phase shift ? Well that certainly explains a fair bit about some posters pov. Im starting to think much of this thread and the QQ about TM comes from people who havent played the same game as those of us who do push the limits of a builds potential.

 

So I think I really am starting to get a finger on the pulse here. This is a  lot like nerf this thing I dont approve of threads over on DDOs forums. Its not about the upper limits of what a build can do, its about ease of reaching those upper limits. TM is basically a newb/casual friendly power set that dosnt require/demand the same investment to do some of the crazy things billion influence builds can do.  So the real issue then seems to be not what can TM do but why can it do it for less investment. There will always be easy to use sets and sets that require a strong understanding of the set to bring out its full potential. This is actually a good thing, as its better for those looking for less challenge to have ATs and power sets that make the game easy, and those wanting to feel challenge having the option of less do everything power sets and sets that dont gel well together thus demanding better player skills to compensate.

 

As a few others have pointed out in this thread, all roads lead to Rome, some are easier, some are more well traveled, some are over rocky and perilous terrain. In the end virtually all top end builds tend to share certain metrics if not certain specific powers. If one gets to soft cap def, something easily destroyed by high accuracy mobs with def debuffing, no matter how they got there its the same goal reached. If its because of a certain power synergy not even able to be used for about 70% of a characters leveling life then its a pretty high teir power synergy that producing strong results isnt some big deal.

 

Maybe there is a bug, maybe there is an oversight in design, all valid things to look into and discuss. However trying to use older sets as the standard when basically nerf herding for a set released towards the end of the games life is basically trying to put the genie back into the bottle. By the twilight of live, it was very clear that most players wanted to be able to solo effectively on just about every possible build option. Thus newer sets for all ATs tended to be stronger then older sets that never got a real update.

 

While no top end meta gamer I do tend to make strong characters and concepts to match that fit in the game lore. Thus many of my characters have something to do with time travel with that being such a big part of the gameverse. Yet I have bothered making a whopping one Time Manip toon that Ive stuck with. Its a nifty set for sure, but its not some oh ah nothing else will ever feel this good again set. This power combo under the threads microscope seems to be treating it like something unique, that it allows something no other build can equal. That is simply not so. Its another path, one that isnt even that smooth till higher levels. Late bloomer builds tend to see this kind of love/hate among the player base because those who level slowly cant really ever push through the rough start to reach the banquet and enjoy the feast.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

8 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

 This argument is what we call specious. It may sound reasonable but in fact it is not. The fact that you can compare just a couple of powers from time to an armor set is exactly the problem. The point isn’t that SR is over powered because of what it can do. The point is that time can do all that, minus the mez protection which can be provided in other ways, and it still has a bunch of other powers. Not SR. SR can do what you described, and nothing else.

 

So I’m sorry, and I don’t mean to be insulting, but it is really rich for you to be accusing other people of sticking their head in the sand with an argument like this.

First what argument? The statement you quoted is just observation. And you seem to forget several other things I mentioned about SR. with perma or near perma levels of elude combined with quickness one can easily offer a worthy race challenge to any SS/SJ zone runner. Does TM let you do that? No Kin does but not TM. It has DDR, something that TM does not have. It offers the strongest levels of CC pro to be found in any power set.

 

Im not trying to say its a perfect comparison. Im simply pointing out that those trying to treat TM+ Power Boost like its something OP, are not taking into account the wide range of power sets and builds or the fact the final result when it comes to certain metrics is the same no matter the AT or powers used to reach those numbers. It doesnt really matter how one reaches soft cap especially by the mid 30s or higher. If this TM power combo existed at lvl 10 sure issue, if it let TM users reach numbers no other build could ever come near, sure issue. But these are not the case.

[Wavicle]

3 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

First what argument? The statement you quoted is just observation. And you seem to forget several other things I mentioned about SR. with perma or near perma levels of elude combined with quickness one can easily offer a worthy race challenge to any SS/SJ zone runner. Does TM let you do that? No Kin does but not TM. It has DDR, something that TM does not have. It offers the strongest levels of CC pro to be found in any power set.

 

Im not trying to say its a perfect comparison. Im simply pointing out that those trying to treat TM+ Power Boost like its something OP, are not taking into account the wide range of power sets and builds or the fact the final result when it comes to certain metrics is the same no matter the AT or powers used to reach those numbers. It doesnt really matter how one reaches soft cap especially by the mid 30s or higher. If this TM power combo existed at lvl 10 sure issue, if it let TM users reach numbers no other build could ever come near, sure issue. But these are not the case.

I only quoted a small part because I didn’t feel like having all of that text there unnecessarily.

 

I can only conclude from what you’ve said here that you are either unwilling or unable to see the distinction between a set that can do this with a billion inf IO build and a set that can do it with just SOs.

 

like I said, a specious argument. Apples and oranges.

[Frosticus]

4 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Oh you mean you dont know how to get eludes down time to less then the duration of a phase shift ? Well that certainly explains a fair bit about some posters pov. Im starting to think much of this thread and the QQ about TM comes from people who havent played the same game as those of us who do push the limits of a builds potential.

 

The beauty of this game is there is room for defenders that only take heals, petless masterminds and people that sequester themselves in phase shift while waiting on elude to be up. 

 

keep in mind that farsight can hit anywhere from 1 to 255 friendlies. Your phaseshift only positively affects you and your enemies while the rest of your team covers your absence.

[oedipus_tex]

I recognize that the Buff sets will always be the most difficult sets to evaluate because there are few hard rules to govern them. For Armor, Blast, Melee, Assault and even Control sets, the rules are more straight forward in comparison.

 

I also acknowledge that there exists an informal "Kinetics rule" for Buff sets. If Kinetics came out tomorrow and no one had seen it before, we would probably think it is overpowered because of the capped Damage. The value is allowed mainly because it is grandfathered. The Buff/Debuff sets are supposed to offer powerful buffs and some pushing of boundaries, as with Kinetics. But this powerful? 

 

Then again there is nothing to directly compare Kinetics too. So maybe huge amounts of +Damage is totally within bounds. Based on the fact that the set has been around so long, it seems so. 

 

Beyond that though, its worth asking whether a set is immune to review just because it happens to be called a "Buff" and not "Armor." If Farsight and Fade were Armor powers and not Buff powers, I know they'd be changed. They fall too far outside the acceptable mainstream for an Armor power. I don't think there'd even be much discussion about it. Everyone would recognize why soft capping to every position and element with a handful of powers is not healthy for Armor sets as a whole. That's because the mantra "just let the players have fun" has multiple implications. For a lot of players it is not "fun" to have one set that is such a large outlier that it dwarfs other sets. 

 

It is not enough to say that Farsight with Power Boost provides +Defense. It provides +Defense far outside the normal enhancement Schedules (Defense powers are schedule B, or +20% enhancement per slot.) And it provides it in a way that, once cast, is immune to endurance drain or detoggling. 

Note that the Defense and +ToHit systems are considered delicate enough that a whole different Enhancement Schedule governs them from other systems.

We could argue that Farsight should be powerful because Fulcrum Shift is powerful. But to me there has to be a breakline somewhere when a power simulates Armor. For situations where the character is buffing teammates or pets, we know from the design that the Armor value provided can be substantial. But when buffing themselves, the rules that would seem to govern that are well established, and, in my opinion, even sets formally called Buff sets should still basically obey them.

Edited January 20, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Frosticus]

I personally view things as risk vs reward. Or at least that is a major contributor to how I view balance.

So for me fulcrum, while ludicrous, is ok because you need to face down 10+ enemies for it to be ludicrous. And you need to do it often, on a set with little personal mitigation.

 

Farsight and in particular, pb+farsight, entails rolling your face across the keyboard once every 2 min. If CoH is easy, then pb+fs is the hello kitty difficulty setting.

 

People say, "but the VEAT's can mind link." yes they can. But people probably don't realize that mind link is bugged. The power is not supposed to be benefiting from recharge slotting. It doesn't accept recharge enhancements. So the fact that def/rech IO's are boosting it is not working as intended (note I play a widow, i'd be ok if this was fixed, but I'm not worried about it). So fortunatas should really struggle to perma mind link. NW's with a good IO build could. Definitely not with just SO slotting like a time manipulation heh. 

 

If fulcrum was a "gather for" buff that gave +200% damage and lasted 2 min, I think most people would think that was OP, but maybe not...