I Love Knockback

[Bossk_Hogg]

2 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

My 2 cents:

 

Knockback is a mechanic that adds a lot of "power" feel to a player. It is usually disliked in this game only because it gets in the way of optimizing kill time (something that goes back to the root of this game over-rewarding kill speed instead of task completion, but that's a topic for another day.) That is a feeling of power I heavily am against removing from the game.

 

 

 

 

 

Can you at least review changing the KB to KD for Solar Flare and Radiant Strike for Peacebringers? They are both melee attack analogues of powers that had their KB converted to KD in issue 2. Dawn Strike maps to Nova, so I'm cool with it having massive KB. But basic melee attacks shouldnt result in you chasing your own target IMO. And Peacebringers have plenty of other KB options available.

[MunkiLord]

5 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Can you at least review changing the KB to KD for Solar Flare and Radiant Strike for Peacebringers? They are both melee attack analogues of powers that had their KB converted to KD in issue 2. Dawn Strike maps to Nova, so I'm cool with it having massive KB. But basic melee attacks shouldnt result in you chasing your own target IMO. And Peacebringers have plenty of other KB options available.

I think looking at individual powers on a case by case basis is an excellent way to go about this. 

[Troo]

Is there a comprehensive list of powers with knockback?

[kelika2]

Remember that one Family Guy episode from like 20 years ago where Peter put plastic on his furnature because of some nudist family?

Then he started making that squeaking/squealing sound from rubbing his hand across the plastic?

Remember what he said?

"I think its easier on me because Im the one doing it"

 

If you are solo, I do not care what you knockback.  But in a group you need to cut that crap out or slot KB to KD enhancements if you want to freely use Energy Blast/robots/storm/whatever else.  Knockbacks slow groups down, other peoples AoEs of varying types do not get a chance to land

Hey Storm user with hurricane on thinking you are awesome standing in a choke point with an ambush coming:

You are not helping, there are tons of other powers to deal with that crap

Hey Force Fielder using Force Bubble in a TV reactor trial

You are not helping, spreading them out means they die slower.

Hey Energy Blast using their AoEs all willynilly

You are not helping, even not helping yourself.  Whats the point of the follow up AoE if your first AoE knocked targets out of range?

Hey Gravity Control person who is using Wormhole on the group we are currently fighting

You are not helping

Hey Ice/earth control guy who is running Synapes:

guess what clockwork are weak to knockback and you scattering everything is not helping.

Hey Dual Pistols who is doing a no Swap Ammo challenge run?

There is a special place in the rogue isles for you.

 

Think of others the next time you are about to press the knockback/scattering ability thats only really fun to you because you are the one doing it.

[kelika2]

On 1/13/2020 at 1:04 PM, Bossk_Hogg said:

Can you at least review changing the KB to KD for Solar Flare and Radiant Strike for Peacebringers?

Both Solar Flares for Peacebringers are a mag .67.  Both human and dwarf.  and unless you are fighting something weak to knockback they knockdown.

[kelika2]

On 1/13/2020 at 10:54 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

A reason I heavily oppose the addition of a global switch for KnockBack is that as soon as it's available, anyone that does not use it will become an outcast, accused of trolling, and what not.

I disagree with this because while Sudden Acceleration/Overwhelming Force is a thing, it should not be a luxury thing.  Luxury for both having the Inf to buy them and the extra slot for them.

[honoroit]

I need you to go ahead and slot all those sonic powers for a thing that does nothing but change the sfx.

 

You see, it annoys me. And that just won't do! 

[0th Power]

If anyone really wants to have a good time, start or join an all KB task force.  Its not efficient at all, but it sure is fun.

 

My character for said TFs

Edited January 15, 2020 by 0th Power

[Rathulfr]

8 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Remember that one Family Guy episode from like 20 years ago where Peter put plastic on his furnature because of some nudist family?

Then he started making that squeaking/squealing sound from rubbing his hand across the plastic?

Remember what he said?

"I think its easier on me because Im the one doing it"

 

If you are solo, I do not care what you knockback.  But in a group you need to cut that crap out or slot KB to KD enhancements if you want to freely use Energy Blast/robots/storm/whatever else.  Knockbacks slow groups down, other peoples AoEs of varying types do not get a chance to land

Hey Storm user with hurricane on thinking you are awesome standing in a choke point with an ambush coming:

You are not helping, there are tons of other powers to deal with that crap

Hey Force Fielder using Force Bubble in a TV reactor trial

You are not helping, spreading them out means they die slower.

Hey Energy Blast using their AoEs all willynilly

You are not helping, even not helping yourself.  Whats the point of the follow up AoE if your first AoE knocked targets out of range?

Hey Gravity Control person who is using Wormhole on the group we are currently fighting

You are not helping

Hey Ice/earth control guy who is running Synapes:

guess what clockwork are weak to knockback and you scattering everything is not helping.

Hey Dual Pistols who is doing a no Swap Ammo challenge run?

There is a special place in the rogue isles for you.

 

Think of others the next time you are about to press the knockback/scattering ability thats only really fun to you because you are the one doing it.

 

Wow, so many different ATs and power sets have knockback: it's almost as if you'd think the devs actually intended knockback to be a part of the game, somehow.  I wonder if anyone else noticed this?

 

[Rathulfr]

13 hours ago, Troo said:

Is there a comprehensive list of powers with knockback?

@kelika2 seems to have compiled a pretty good list right here! 😄

[Display Name]

I vote that we have 6 slots for everything!  Including Incarnate Powers!  Yay!  Lol!

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

Wow, so many different ATs and power sets have knockback: it's almost as if you'd think the devs actually intended knockback to be a part of the game, somehow.  I wonder if anyone else noticed this?

Examples of the old devs coming to terms with their mistake

Overwhelming Force: Knockback to Knockdown

Mastermind pets going from Knockback to Knockdown: The Lich and The Bruiser (torrent and hand clap)

And kinda reaching with this one but: Dual Pistols.  Turning on a different kind of ammunition that is an upgrade in every way shouldnt stop knockback

And this one I do not remember clearly but Foot Stomp knocking back and later changed to a Knockdown

 

Times change and people should grow up, scattering a battlefield might seem fun to the teenagers we used to be but not anymore.  My energy/energy blaster can still flop an entire group of enemies on their back without throwing them around thanks to Sudden Acceleration.  My Fire Controls have another soft control thanks to SA.  My Fiery Armors have another attack that happens to be triggered by dying accidentally thanks to Overwhelming Force.  My Robots/Ninjas/Mercs can bitch juggle constantly thanks to SA/OF.

 

So many other sets were made better/playable with the introduction of Overwhelming Force, but limited by the uniqueness

And then here comes this server with Sudden Acceleration making everything that much better.

 

The Toggle idea would fix everything.  People soloing can still play around reliving their past, but people who want to group and play with others can still fulfill the knockdown soft control while not making others lives worse.

[0th Power]

I have yet to team with someone so “bad” at knockback that it made the game not fun. 

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

The Toggle idea would fix everything.  People soloing can still play around reliving their past, but people who want to group and play with others can still fulfill the knockdown soft control while not making others lives worse.

 

I respectfully disagree about the toggle thing fixing everything.  I suspect that adding that toggle would just become an undue burden on players with knockback, as teams would begin discriminating against those who choose not to use it (as I would not).  There's enough "KB-shaming" now: a toggle would institutionalize that.

 

I do agree that knocking back responsibly is on me as a player with KB; however, I also believe that it's on other players to expect to encounter knockback as a normal challenge of routine game play, because the devs intended it to be that way (regardless of their subsequent efforts to mitigate some -- but not all -- of it).  Dealing with knocked back mobs is something that players have to expect and adjust to like any other condition, such as mobs that run away, or mobs that are held/immobilized out of range, etc.

 

[Lines]

10 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I do agree that knocking back responsibly is on me as a player with KB; however, I also believe that it's on other players to expect to encounter knockback as a normal challenge of routine game play, because the devs intended it to be that way (regardless of their subsequent efforts to mitigate some -- but not all -- of it).  Dealing with knocked back mobs is something that players have to expect and adjust to like any other condition, such as mobs that run away, or mobs that are held/immobilized out of range, etc.

 

I absolutely agree. As players we can create efficiencies within our means - it's a significant aspect of gameplay in CoH -but we should not expect the game itself to become efficient so that we don't have to.

 

Efficiency and convenience are good decisions for players to make, but not always good choices for game designers to make.

[kelika2]

46 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I respectfully disagree about the toggle thing fixing everything.  I suspect that adding that toggle would just become an undue burden on players with knockback, as teams would begin discriminating against those who choose not to use it (as I would not).  There's enough "KB-shaming" now: a toggle would institutionalize that.

If pushing a button and leaving it on for the duration of a group/task force makes you feel like a victim then there are more deep rooted problems here.

 

Only the people who are doing the knockback are praising Knockback.  In groups there is very extremely little call for Knockback.  Adding a toggle will fix the issue of inviting an energy/storm/whatever to a group.

 

Remember, you are not the victim.

[honoroit]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

... 

Times change and people should grow up, scattering a battlefield might seem fun to the teenagers we used to be but not anymore. 

... 

I won't 'grow up' (by that meaning comply with your wishes), and will never slot kb - > kd! 

 

Toggle even gives others excuse to persecute someone who wants to use kb. 

 

No, some of these powers come at cost of knock back, or are improved with flight time of long kb. 

 

Embrace the madness, remember fondly the embers of lost youth! 

[Rathulfr]

23 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

If pushing a button and leaving it on for the duration of a group/task force makes you feel like a victim then there are more deep rooted problems here.

 

Only the people who are doing the knockback are praising Knockback.  In groups there is very extremely little call for Knockback.  Adding a toggle will fix the issue of inviting an energy/storm/whatever to a group.

 

Remember, you are not the victim.

My point is that there are no victims.  Knockback is a normal part of routine game play.  The only "victims" are those who whine about being slightly inconvenienced on their steamroll teams.

[kelika2]

6 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

My point is that there are no victims.  Knockback is a normal part of routine game play.  The only "victims" are those who whine about being slightly inconvenienced on their steamroll teams.

And I said before, it is easier on you because you are the one doing it.

And a great many people do not have Knockback in their sets.  Hop on over to the FOTM sticky in General Discussion.

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/fotm-powers/

 

Another argument would be: Why would you want to slow down a steamroll team?

[honoroit]

Just now, kelika2 said:

And I said before, it is easier on you because you are the one doing it.

And a great many people do not have Knockback in their sets.  Hop on over to the FOTM sticky in General Discussion.

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/fotm-powers/

 

Another argument would be: Why would you want to slow down a steamroll team?

It's about the journey, not some wild end point destination. The endpoint in coh, the endpoint is re-roll. 

 

So enjoy the ride, and play the game to its fullest! KB and all! 

[Lines]

4 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

 

Another argument would be: Why would you want to slow down a steamroll team?

If speed is the game design goal, let's lower all enemy hp to 1, remove city zones so we just have missions, uncap movement speeds and set every map to the asteroid.

 

As you said in your earlier post, Sudden Acceleration solves things. And I agree it's great; it's solved in such a way that players have the agency to play their way and can make a minor sacrifice to optimise.

 

But the game itself still sometimes has to be an antagonistic force. We need inconveniences like high enemy HP, travel time, a variety of settings and indeed knockback. These things give players decisions, enable us to become better at it and keep the game interesting. It shouldn't be obedient to our comforts, solve our scruples for us and conform to the metagame, else there wouldn't be much game to play.

[kelika2]

6 minutes ago, Lines said:

But the game itself still sometimes has to be an antagonistic force. We need inconveniences like high enemy HP, travel time, a variety of settings and indeed knockback. These things give players decisions, enable us to become better at it and keep the game interesting. It shouldn't be obedient to our comforts, solve our scruples for us and conform to the metagame, else there wouldn't be much game to play.

Why does one of those factors need to be Knockback from other players who do not care about the rest of the group?

I can understand some stuff like Malta Sappers needing to be targeted first, or maybe that one Psi dmg map no one is prepared for and gatta take it slow

But why does one of those factors needs to be another player making the game worse/longer?

[honoroit]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

Why does one of those factors need to be Knockback from other players who do not care about the rest of the group?

I can understand some stuff like Malta Sappers needing to be targeted first, or maybe that one Psi dmg map no one is prepared for and gatta take it slow

But why does one of those factors needs to be another player making the game worse/longer?

you are transforming 'i am dissatisfied with use of this mechanic' into 'why (oh heavens, why!?) does one of those factors needs to be another player making the game worse/longer?'

[kelika2]

2 minutes ago, honoroit said:

you are transforming 'i am dissatisfied with use of this mechanic' into 'why (oh heavens, why!?) does one of those factors needs to be another player making the game worse/longer?'

Scroll up, my first post in this thread was about all the wrong things about Knockback.

Nothing is being transformed, just you hopping in at the end of this and making assumptions.

 

13 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Remember that one Family Guy episode from like 20 years ago where Peter put plastic on his furnature because of some nudist family?

Then he started making that squeaking/squealing sound from rubbing his hand across the plastic?

Remember what he said?

"I think its easier on me because Im the one doing it"

Partial quoting because of the length of the post

[Lines]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

Why does one of those factors need to be Knockback from other players who do not care about the rest of the group?

I can understand some stuff like Malta Sappers needing to be targeted first, or maybe that one Psi dmg map no one is prepared for and gatta take it slow

But why does one of those factors needs to be another player making the game worse/longer?

Because the difference between knockback done poorly and knockback done well is the quality of our decisions as players. It's in dynamics like that where players have the most agency and make the most meaningful choices.

 

Outsourcing these things to a meta-toggle cheapens our decisions and lessens our role in the game as players. The game has decided for us 'thou shalt be efficient'.

 

Longer is not worse. And I'd take a badly placed knockback over an impatient teammate.