Make Energy Melee great again

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

5 hours ago, siolfir said:

Energy Melee doesn't currently have a combo system. I'm tired of combo systems and the "well, if this hits first then this happens" mechanics in the newer melee sets (DB Combos, StJ Combos, Insight, Contamination, Momentum, etc). If I want to play a set that does that, there are several available.

That's a very oversimplification of those sets' mechanics. But if that's your opinion on the new sets, then I don't really have anything to discuss with you. 

Just fyi - I am not a fan of the combo system mechanics either. I think there are definitely more than a handful that feel similarly. It's cool some are available for those that like em.

 

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Now you're changing Total Focus animation as well as changing other ATs that get access to TF. 

I think they simply meant keeping the current 'look at these hands' animation as an option for Total Focus. Nothing more than that.

 

[aethereal]

I don't think that the HC staff really care a whole lot about these kind of detailed suggestions for how to change a power-set.  At most, they may read them to graze for some ideas to pluck out and use out of context, but I don't think that anyone is ever really going to go, "Oh, let's just do exactly what X said!"

 

So I regard them as mostly exercises in freeform game design.

 

That said, I think it's an interesting problem to try to make EM be an interesting, worthwhile set, on-par with other well-regarded sets like Street Justice, Fire Melee, Staff, or War Mace (not necessarily overwhelmingly good like Titan Weapons), without adding an explicit combo-style mechanic.  So I like noodling about that even though I think there is roughly a 0% chance that my ideas will be adopted.

 

So one of the things I often see people suggest is bonus damage to stunned opponents.  I don't like that for a variety of reasons, but one of them is that hey, if we're dealing with a heavily-single-target set, that set should excel against harder opponents, certainly bosses, and also EBs, AVs, and GMs.  All of those have escalating resistance to mezzes, and it kinda sucks to make your bonus damage be more available against targets least worth the time of a single-target-focused set.

 

So what if we turn that around?  How about bonus damage to targets that are NOT stunned?  That feels kinda cool, and rewards a slightly more interesting play-style than "extra damage if stunned," where you switch targets once your stuns get through.  And it naturally makes you better against targets with higher mez resistance, which is as I think it should be.

 

Here's a general idea:

 

Barrage: 90% of present damage to stunned targets, 150% of present damage to unstunned targets

Energy Punch:  100% of present damage to stunned targets, 110% of present damage to unstunned targets

Bone Crusher:  100% of present damage to stunned targets, 110% of present damage to unstunned targets

Energy Transfer:  90% of present damage to stunned targets, 120% of present damage to unstunned targets

Total Focus: 75% of present damage to stunned targets, 150% of present damage to unstunned targets

 

(I'm sure the numbers would have to be tweaked and playtested.  Think of them as directional rather than The Right Values).

 

The concept there is that players can build an attack chain of EP/BC/ET and, if they choose, ignore this mechanic and just run it against people as normal and it's not wildly different.  Mild buff overall.  But they can use Barrage and Total Focus, which don't necessarily have a place in a current optimal EM attack chain, as burst damage initiators or whenever targets come out of stun.

 

That leaves Stun.  I continue to like a targeted AoE stun as the new version, and in this it self-limits to some extent, since stuns are a bit of a mixed blessing for you, which feels about right for giving a melee class an AoE mezz.

[SeraphimKensai]

Instead of a more traditional combo system, what about single target attacks besides energy transfer grant a stacking temporary buff on a target, so when you hit say a freakshow stunner with a quick 1-2, they have a temp buff "Energized", so when you hit them with energy transfer, they explode into a tbaoe doing increased damaged/range per stack of the buff, and after using Energy Transfer, the buff needs to be reset.

 

That allows energy melee to potentially deal some more AoE. I do think the animation times need some love as well though.

 

Just a crazy idea.

[siolfir]

32 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Instead of a more traditional combo system, what about single target attacks besides energy transfer grant a stacking temporary buff on a target, so when you hit say a freakshow stunner with a quick 1-2, they have a temp buff "Energized", so when you hit them with energy transfer, they explode into a tbaoe doing increased damaged/range per stack of the buff, and after using Energy Transfer, the buff needs to be reset.

 

That allows energy melee to potentially deal some more AoE. I do think the animation times need some love as well though.

 

Just a crazy idea.

This is almost exactly what I was talking about when I said that most of the ideas I've seen are basically just making it Rad Melee. Replace the word Energized with Contaminated, give the AoE damage to all of the single target attacks instead of just Energy Transfer, and that's what it is.

 

35 minutes ago, aethereal said:

So what if we turn that around?  How about bonus damage to targets that are NOT stunned?  That feels kinda cool, and rewards a slightly more interesting play-style than "extra damage if stunned," where you switch targets once your stuns get through.  And it naturally makes you better against targets with higher mez resistance, which is as I think it should be.

This would be better for Stalkers than Brutes and Tankers because of the nerfed stun percentages. I don't think any of the powers should do less damage than their recharge/endurance would account for, otherwise you're penalizing the set just for having a secondary effect - it would also definitely make Stun a garbage power and Total Focus is iffy at best. It's a different tack than I've seen before, though, so it's got that for it.

[aethereal]

15 minutes ago, siolfir said:

This would be better for Stalkers than Brutes and Tankers because of the nerfed stun percentages. I don't think any of the powers should do less damage than their recharge/endurance would account for, otherwise you're penalizing the set just for having a secondary effect - it would also definitely make Stun a garbage power and Total Focus is iffy at best. It's a different tack than I've seen before, though, so it's got that for it.

 

You could give stalkers less bonus damage than brutes and tankers get.

 

I think it would be wrong to say, "more damage than their recharge/endurance account for in some circumstances, less in others" is penalizing a powerset.  My suggestion is that the mainstay attacks would get no or very mild nerfs to their damage against stunned targets, and bonuses to their damage against unstunned targets.  The ones that would get a serious nerf to their damage against stunned targets are already (at least arguably) situational powers: a big bonus to their damage against unstunned targets just gives them an actual situational role rather than being skips.

 

A decently wide-area guaranteed AoE mez is a pretty cool ability, especially for a melee set.  I don't know that stun would be a garbage power (though sufficiently high performance builds that don't need a panic button would probably find it skippable).  Certainly less of a garbage power than it is now.

[Wavicle]

Make crits OTHER than Energy Transfer give you a few seconds (or a chance for a few seconds) in which you can use ET with the old animation.  On Stalkers (and Scrappers if we can port this over) this faster ET can still crit for no Health cost.  Give the proc a cooldown.

For Brutes, give every attack other than ET a small chance to grant the proc. Very small, maybe 1-3%.

Then in addition, fix EM for Stalkers by giving it some AoE of some kind.  Preferably just by switching out something for Whirling Hands, but there are other possible solutions.

Edited January 14, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[siolfir]

1 minute ago, aethereal said:

 

You could give stalkers less bonus damage than brutes and tankers get.

 

I think it would be wrong to say, "more damage than their recharge/endurance account for in some circumstances, less in others" is penalizing a powerset.  My suggestion is that the mainstay attacks would get no or very mild nerfs to their damage against stunned targets, and bonuses to their damage against unstunned targets.  The ones that would get a serious nerf to their damage against stunned targets are already (at least arguably) situational powers: a big bonus to their damage against unstunned targets just gives them an actual situational role rather than being skips.

 

A decently wide-area guaranteed AoE mez is a pretty cool ability, especially for a melee set.  I don't know that stun would be a garbage power (though sufficiently high performance builds that don't need a panic button would probably find it skippable).  Certainly less of a garbage power than it is now.

Here's my problem with the idea: if you run a normal Energy Melee damage chain, you're going to be hitting more stunned targets than not because the stun percentages are just that high (EP: 30%, BS: 60%, ET: 60%). So more often than not you'll be doing less damage than the recharge and endurance cost would account for. That's where it loses me and becomes a penalty for your secondary effect - it would make it even worse than it is now, when people rarely take it and common advice is to avoid it like the plague. That's not even accounting for team situations where you're not the only one throwing out stuns, where you wouldn't even get the higher damage hits.

 

Speaking of wide-area guaranteed AoE stuns... they're nice but Fault doesn't make Stone Melee do less damage. Hand Clap and Lightning Clap are usually either skipped or slotted with a KB-to-KD IO so that they don't indirectly lower AoE damage by scattering mobs. I think Stun would go from the "I don't need it so I won't take it" into the "this hurts me and I don't need it so I'll never take it" territory. I have been told that I'm too cynical at times, though, so maybe people will think 

[Lines]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

{Snip}

There's something really neat in this idea for stategic, burst damage gameplay, and it's something I'd need to feel out by playing it to know how much I like it.

 

There are some circumstances that could be tricky though. For instance if you fire off Total Focus just as someone else fires off an AoE stun, your attack will only do half damage.

 

And I think it would need to be ironed out according to Siolfir's point as well. You might end up with a sort of diminishing returns for your attacks. A low-to-mid level may struggle that bit more against a boss, when there are no other targets to turn to.

 

The other thing, from a more centric game design position, is to wonder why this is the case. How come a superhero is less effective against a defenseless foe? The setting still needs to play a role in these decisions, gameplay mechanics can't exist in their own numerical vacuum.

 

Perhaps the idea would work better for a psionic set, where the stunned minds of enemies are less impressionable.

 

100% agree, though, that this is a wonderful field to freely discuss these things. I love the ideas that come out of threads like this.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Lines

[aethereal]

14 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Here's my problem with the idea: if you run a normal Energy Melee damage chain, you're going to be hitting more stunned targets than not because the stun percentages are just that high (EP: 30%, BS: 60%, ET: 60%). So more often than not you'll be doing less damage than the recharge and endurance cost would account for. That's where it loses me and becomes a penalty for your secondary effect - it would make it even worse than it is now, when people rarely take it and common advice is to avoid it like the plague. That's not even accounting for team situations where you're not the only one throwing out stuns, where you wouldn't even get the higher damage hits.

 

Speaking of wide-area guaranteed AoE stuns... they're nice but Fault doesn't make Stone Melee do less damage. Hand Clap and Lightning Clap are usually either skipped or slotted with a KB-to-KD IO so that they don't indirectly lower AoE damage by scattering mobs. I think Stun would go from the "I don't need it so I won't take it" into the "this hurts me and I don't need it so I'll never take it" territory. I have been told that I'm too cynical at times, though, so maybe people will think 

 

I mean, in the scenario where my idea was developed into an actual full release, you'd just make sure that the math worked out, so that it was overall a bonus.  Like, I proposed that Total Focus do 150% of its current damage to an unstunned target!  That's a HUGE bonus to an already very high-damage power, and you're guaranteed a chance at least once per enemy if you use it as your initiator.  And my experience with Energy Melee is that there are certainly times when your enemies are unstunned.  Having it be a little more thinky and be like, "Oh, I can use one of my powers that gives big damage against unstunned enemies" seems like the kind of thing that gives the set some unique character.

 

The goal would be that if someone just did a naive attack chain and ignored stun statuses, you'd get a solid, first-tier single-target damage experience.  Something that you can feel basically good about.  If you were carefully managing your attacks so that you were maximizing the use of your extra-damage attacks, you'd have unparalleled best-among-melee-sets single-target damage.

 

I think guaranteed stun is a lot better than guaranteed KB, chance to stun, comparing lightning clap and my proposed stun (I mean, presuming at least mag 3 and a decent length to the stun).

[aethereal]

16 minutes ago, Lines said:

The other thing, from a more centric game design position, is to wonder why this is the case. How come a superhero is less effective against a defenseless foe? The setting still needs to play a role in these decisions, gameplay mechanics can't exist in their own numerical vacuum.

Maybe they don't feel great just beating on an unresisting foe?  That was admittedly something that never felt great to me about the "more damage to stunned enemies" thing.

 

But if I were responsible for theming it, I'd probably say something like the person was "charged" while stunned, you'd dumped so much energy into them that literally your fists were repelled by them.  If you wanted to, you could only make it for your own stuns (which would perhaps theme better and would also solve concerns that you wouldn't play well with other people who do lots of stuns).

[siolfir]

13 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

I mean, in the scenario where my idea was developed into an actual full release, you'd just make sure that the math worked out, so that it was overall a bonus.  Like, I proposed that Total Focus do 150% of its current damage to an unstunned target!  That's a HUGE bonus to an already very high-damage power, and you're guaranteed a chance at least once per enemy if you use it as your initiator.  And my experience with Energy Melee is that there are certainly times when your enemies are unstunned.  Having it be a little more thinky and be like, "Oh, I can use one of my powers that gives big damage against unstunned enemies" seems like the kind of thing that gives the set some unique character.

 

The goal would be that if someone just did a naive attack chain and ignored stun statuses, you'd get a solid, first-tier single-target damage experience.  Something that you can feel basically good about.  If you were carefully managing your attacks so that you were maximizing the use of your extra-damage attacks, you'd have unparalleled best-among-melee-sets single-target damage.

 

I think guaranteed stun is a lot better than guaranteed KB, chance to stun, comparing lightning clap and my proposed stun (I mean, presuming at least mag 3 and a decent length to the stun).

I'm not saying that they'll never be unstunned, I'm just saying that they'll be stunned more often than not.

 

Leading with Total Focus at the 150% number means you do an extra 1.78 scale damage (scale 5.34 total) but then you end up hitting weaker with the rest of the chain until the target is dead unless it's an AV, and even against AVs when PToD are down. I could see it working well with the old Stalker playstyle because it frontloads the damage of the attack chain but Stalker EM already can just lead with Assassin's Strike from Hide for scale 7 damage and people complained about that playstyle enough already.

 

Given your second paragraph, I'm guessing that you were intending to reduce the animation times as well to get the first-tier single-target damage? Because at the current animation times, I see it making it easier to kill minions in one shot - which EM doesn't need help with - and about even on lieutenants and bosses, which doesn't fit with the top-tier damage.

 

I was actually comparing the AoE stun to Lightning Clap (which has a guaranteed mag 2 stun, the 50% chance is to get mag 3) because the guaranteed KB reduces damage because you have to chase the mobs, and the guaranteed stun would reduce your damage directly.

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Instead of a more traditional combo system, what about single target attacks besides energy transfer grant a stacking temporary buff on a target, so when you hit say a freakshow stunner with a quick 1-2, they have a temp buff "Energized", so when you hit them with energy transfer, they explode into a tbaoe doing increased damaged/range per stack of the buff, and after using Energy Transfer, the buff needs to be reset.

 

That allows energy melee to potentially deal some more AoE. I do think the animation times need some love as well though.

 

Just a crazy idea.

 

I like it.  It's an outside the box idea that could create a different flow for yourself in combat.  And I think, with the overall slow animations (although some time can be shaved off), you'll find that for solo, foes will mostly be staggering around as you prep TF or ET.

 

I'd still want Whirling Hands to get more omph though.

 

6 hours ago, siolfir said:

It was meant to be a simplification for brevity's sake. Yes, the Dual Blades combo mechanic is similar to but different than the Street Justice combo mechanic because you have to do these powers in this order for one while the other gets combo points and each point boosts a subset of the powers, all of which is different than Titan Weapons' Momentum, which is different than the Contamination mechanic which is remarkably similar to the suggestions I've seen about adding AoE splash damage to Energy Melee after some named effect is triggered or built up. I'm not outright against the concept. But I certainly don't need more of it.

 

I also used the word "if" for changing the animation for Total Focus, as a response to "people want to keep the animation" - I don't want to keep it and would rather just have the sped up (or really, not slowed down) version of Total Focus that Dominators get. Which in itself is a great example of how changing the animations for one AT doesn't mean that they have to change it for others.

 

 

To further elaborate on the simplification, CoX as a whole is a very simple game in its execution when it comes to MMO standards.  Powers are clicked, animations play and effects are granted.  The only real way to differentiate powers (for casual players) is via animation, damage type and a combination of secondary effects...and some sort of limiting/boosting mechanic built into the set.  For power gamers, the differing factors tend to be overall effect vs its efficiency.  While I know my place with regards to power gaming and min/maxing is closer to novice, I feel more comfortable in presenting the view of concept, individuality and creativity, at least for this game.

 

That preamble out of the way, the purpose of extra mechanics (which I'm sure you already understand) is to differentiate the sets beyond simply secondary effects and particles.  How many energy/smashing damage sets exist that disorient foes? Four.  The extra mechanics not only differentiate the sets but also gives it a concept, a motif, and identity that incorporates the concept beyond just the flavor text.  If the extra mechanics didn't exist, I don't know how many lethal damage melee sets people would tolerate when they are all built to perform within the same range of capabilities (there's six of those now, if I'm not mistaken).

 

So while those mechanics may seem similar at face value, one could see practically any attack set with a similar level of simplistic brevity.  On top of that, just like stacking secondary effects like -def, -res, stun, etc, they mean different things for different sets (no one complains how similar the -def in swords is to the -def in radiation?) so a "similar combo mechanic" can mean different things for different sets.  That's what a casual player (such as myself) enjoys, crafting concepts around these effects and mechanics.  I suppose to a min/maxer, it might all seem the same and ultimately a hurdle in their path to perfect performance but that's just not my perspective.  Rather than seek numerical superiority, I'm more suggesting give Energy Melee the concept and performance it has...+more.  Like where does the energy come from?  What manifests it?  Why does it hurt the user?  Why does it stay localized around the user's hands?  And why does it disorient foes (energy blast is a similar concept but doesn't disorient)?  As we get more and more options and concepts for sets, it might be better to look past the old motifs like (this set stuns, this set does knockdown, this set is fast, this set isn't as fast, etc).  Not saying everything needs "combos" but it's hard to just agree to disagree when the other side merely wants superior numbers.  I mean, you have Titan Weapons and Street Justice lol use an aura or weapon customization if you need to.

 

I hope maybe that kind of explains my viewpoint a little.  I'm not trying to get anyone to love set mechanics but it seems kind of obtuse to just file them all under the same label when they are intentionally meant to play differently.

 

3 hours ago, Troo said:

Just fyi - I am not a fan of the combo system mechanics either. I think there are definitely more than a handful that feel similarly. It's cool some are available for those that like em.

 

I think they simply meant keeping the current 'look at these hands' animation as an option for Total Focus. Nothing more than that.

 

That's fine.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind but you're welcome that I helped add about a page of discussion to the thread that might have started dying out once everyone finished saying "yeah, I'd like the fast animation back" and then went on their way.

 

And I think they mean swapping animations around, not animation customization.

 

Although no one talks much about animation customization anymore.  Personally would like to see someone (not me because I'm lazy) take all the animations and emotes and create a big spreadsheet of them all grouped by same/similar animation times and then we can get a peek at what options there might be for giving alternate character movements/stances for powers.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Leogunner

[Troo]

If we effectively had access to that spreadsheet in-game and 'rolling' a character was actually selecting ala cart powers then picking what animation or sound went with each power on top of the costume generator. *head explodes*

I guess, in that context, the normalization of each power set to be as similar as possible (balance and number wise) makes sense. It would open up a lot of options and creativity.

That would be pretty amazing.

 

At the same time potentially easily exploitable. It would also mean everything may have to be comparable at some level. Specialization would only be determined by the concentration of selected power types versus the variety we have now.

 

It would be a totally different path.

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

If we effectively had access to that spreadsheet in-game and 'rolling' a character was actually selecting ala cart powers then picking what animation or sound went with each power on top of the costume generator. *head explodes*

I guess, in that context, the normalization of each power set to be as similar as possible (balance and number wise) makes sense. It would open up a lot of options and creativity.

That would be pretty amazing.

 

At the same time potentially easily exploitable. It would also mean everything may have to be comparable at some level. Specialization would only be determined by the concentration of selected power types versus the variety we have now.

 

It would be a totally different path.

I'm going to have to vote no on this suggestion on account people would go from spending hours in the character creator to spending months.

[Troo]

It was your idea. I just took it an enormous leap to a conclusion.

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Troo
spellz

[siolfir]

56 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

That preamble out of the way, the purpose of extra mechanics (which I'm sure you already understand) is to differentiate the sets beyond simply secondary effects and particles.  How many energy/smashing damage sets exist that disorient foes? Four.  The extra mechanics not only differentiate the sets but also gives it a concept, a motif, and identity that incorporates the concept beyond just the flavor text.  If the extra mechanics didn't exist, I don't know how many lethal damage melee sets people would tolerate when they are all built to perform within the same range of capabilities (there's six of those now, if I'm not mistaken).

And of those four energy/smashing damage sets that disorient enemies, Energy Melee does it in a straight forward, very reliable manner while also hitting like a truck. It used to do it in a very quick, straight forward, and reliable manner while hitting like a truck.

 

I liked the feel (read: speed) of the set and didn't mind the limited AoE when I was solo because when I could reliably pick off mobs by swapping to the next target, hitting ET as my character points at them and goes "You. Die." and I could switch to another target nearly seamlessly, and if I was in a group I knew that the self-damage wasn't going to waste because the damage hit nearly immediately. I rarely ever used Total Focus because I didn't need to ensure there was a stun most of the time and I could fill my chain with attacks where the longest attack animation was Bone Smasher at 1.5 seconds, using either Mu Lightning or Gloom as the extra filler, depending on which build you were talking about - since the character was EM/Elec Mu Mastery fit the concept better, Gloom was when I was trying for more DPS. That is what I want back.

 

I understand that it's not optimal with limited AoE in the current meta. I don't care. I have a Rad Melee Brute already, I don't need another one.

[Leogunner]

8 minutes ago, siolfir said:

And of those four energy/smashing damage sets that disorient enemies, Energy Melee does it in a straight forward, very reliable manner while also hitting like a truck. It used to do it in a very quick, straight forward, and reliable manner while hitting like a truck.

 

I liked the feel (read: speed) of the set and didn't mind the limited AoE when I was solo because when I could reliably pick off mobs by swapping to the next target, hitting ET as my character points at them and goes "You. Die." and I could switch to another target nearly seamlessly, and if I was in a group I knew that the self-damage wasn't going to waste because the damage hit nearly immediately. I rarely ever used Total Focus because I didn't need to ensure there was a stun most of the time and I could fill my chain with attacks where the longest attack animation was Bone Smasher at 1.5 seconds, using either Mu Lightning or Gloom as the extra filler, depending on which build you were talking about - since the character was EM/Elec Mu Mastery fit the concept better, Gloom was when I was trying for more DPS. That is what I want back.

 

I understand that it's not optimal with limited AoE in the current meta. I don't care. I have a Rad Melee Brute already, I don't need another one.

I think you would like Stalkers then.

 

I do this all the time (point my character at them and goes "You. Die.")

 

I'd even say my Elec stalker has more variety in exploiting its mechanics and advantages.  Perhaps the evolution of Stalker is why old EM had to be changed and why it fits so poorly with Stalker overall.  Although I'm sure effectually, having 2 quick cast extreme damage attacks would be effective to someone, probably in PvP (and the real reason we're here tonight).

 

As for the not optimal with limited AoE...one of the 2 tricked out incarnate characters I have is a NB/Regen Stalker.  Might be a bit more hardcore since it's not energy damage tho.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

some of these ideas are interesting and some are strange however one of the things i like about EM (& DM) is its simplicity. You punch then punch and punch some more if the enemy gets up you punch again. If i want combos theres power sets for that. If i wanna shoot stuff theres power sets for that. Sometime i just wanna punch stuff. Im not saying complexity cant be interesting im just saying theres an old saying. Simple is better

[Galaxy Brain]

Similar note, aside from damage type how do you make EM compete with War Mace which has more range, more AoE, more ST dps, and even has the stun gimmick + knockdowns? 

[siolfir]

9 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I think you would like Stalkers then.

I love the Stalker changes and had a ton of fun with it before shutdown on a DM/Nin and Elec/Nin even without ATOs. I haven't come up with a build that I just really love since Homecoming came back up, and I try to get the build done so I can have the IOs ready to go as I level instead of doing a respec at 50. I have several ideas that I wanted to try, but none of them are just crying out "build me!" so I've been continuing to play my Fortunata - who has stealth, fast animations, heavily-procced Dominate, and an "everybody die" button.

 

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

some of these ideas are interesting and some are strange however one of the things i like about EM (& DM) is its simplicity. You punch then punch and punch some more if the enemy gets up you punch again. If i want combos theres power sets for that. If i wanna shoot stuff theres power sets for that. Sometime i just wanna punch stuff. Im not saying complexity cant be interesting im just saying theres an old saying. Simple is better

That's basically my point, too.

 

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Similar note, aside from damage type how do you make EM compete with War Mace which has more range, more AoE, more ST dps, and even has the stun gimmick + knockdowns? 

For starters, don't give War Mace (or Titan Weapons, which has more of everything) to Stalkers, because clearly the devs hate Stalkers (just look at what they did to /Nin when they gave it to other ATs and compare it to what it started as). 😛

 

On a more serious note - I think the ET reversion would be enough to surpass WM in single target, although EM would still fall far behind in both AoE damage and mitigation. For me, at least, that would be enough, because I dislike almost all of the weapon sets (it's an aesthetic thing, not a numbers thing). If the Total Focus animation is also shortened, I think it might be competing with Titan Weapons for single target.

[Leogunner]

4 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

some of these ideas are interesting and some are strange however one of the things i like about EM (& DM) is its simplicity. You punch then punch and punch some more if the enemy gets up you punch again. If i want combos theres power sets for that. If i wanna shoot stuff theres power sets for that. Sometime i just wanna punch stuff. Im not saying complexity cant be interesting im just saying theres an old saying. Simple is better

 

I enjoy simplicity as well but more in concept than in execution. Like my DM/WP stalker, his attacks aren't negative energy but instead ash. But not cindery ash, it's the particles of his disintegrating body. 

 

As far as execution goes, I tend to imaging that he could perform a lot of complex feats because he's literally controlling a cloud of his body to harm others, like entering someone's throat and choke them. Having mechanics in DM where using Twilight Grasp on a foe you used Touch of fear on creates a hold effect is a "combo mechanic" but it's different from the others in effect, execution and concept. 

2 hours ago, siolfir said:

I love the Stalker changes and had a ton of fun with it before shutdown on a DM/Nin and Elec/Nin even without ATOs. I haven't come up with a build that I just really love since Homecoming came back up, and I try to get the build done so I can have the IOs ready to go as I level instead of doing a respec at 50. I have several ideas that I wanted to try, but none of them are just crying out "build me!" so I've been continuing to play my Fortunata - who has stealth, fast animations, heavily-procced Dominate, and an "everybody die" button.

 

That's basically my point, too.

 

For starters, don't give War Mace (or Titan Weapons, which has more of everything) to Stalkers, because clearly the devs hate Stalkers (just look at what they did to /Nin when they gave it to other ATs and compare it to what it started as). 😛

 

On a more serious note - I think the ET reversion would be enough to surpass WM in single target, although EM would still fall far behind in both AoE damage and mitigation. For me, at least, that would be enough, because I dislike almost all of the weapon sets (it's an aesthetic thing, not a numbers thing). If the Total Focus animation is also shortened, I think it might be competing with Titan Weapons for single target.

I think another reason I like Stalkers is they have resources and effects to capitalize on such as hide, As, demoralize and stuff. They usually have interesting interactions with other powers and mechanics as well. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

There are other sets that would benefit much more from the combo system than EM, conceptually and in practicality. For example Martial Arts.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

There are other sets that would benefit much more from the combo system than EM, conceptually and in practicality. For example Martial Arts.

MA should totally have some sorta combo system, hell it already sorta does with Eagles Claw carrying a buff to the next attack

[Haijinx]

Can one of the more mathematically gifted run the DPA attack chain numbers for ST 

 

WM 

EM as is

EM with ET reverted to old animation

 

That might help here a lot.

 

WM is one of the best ST sets, so thats probably a great baseline as mentioned above. 

 

[Myrmidon]

On 1/14/2020 at 6:17 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

im gonna play the card occam's razor. 

 

you solution, Change the entire dynamic of how energy melee works + a mechanic that doesnt yet exist

 

OR

 

reducing the cast time on 1 or more abilities

 

both ideas would make the the set more viable than its current incarnation but which one would be easier to implement? 

The Homecoming team is full of surprises, so I wouldn’t bet the farm on that theory just yet.😁