Instant healing Toggle instead of click

[TheMuna]

What do people think about instant healing as a toggle for stalker and scrapper like it is for Sentinel?

 

That's how it used to be and it's essentially the power that makes Regen heroes "Super". Everything else can be duplicated through sets/pools. It would help to de-clutter the secondary. That way you can focus on withstanding alpha strikes from the beginning instead of worrying about keeping IH up.

 

 

[SwitchFade]

I vote no, sorry.

[lemming]

I'd like to see Regen worked on a bit.  I think going back to the way IH was before the "nerf" would be a mistake, but an overhaul of the set would be nice and that would include IH being a toggle.

I'd probably make MoG a shorter life power, but make it less of an emergency power and the way to avoid the Alpha.

[Leogunner]

I also vote no.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Turn regen into Sentinel regen. In a similar thread I showed that their version on scrapper numbers is straight up better.

[Monos King]

I think this is really weird because I was just about to suggest this as an obvious joke thread.

 

I vote yes.

[srmalloy]

The thing that made IH overpowered as it was -- and a fundamental problem with Regen as a whole -- is that it applies itself to damage again and again; Defense and Resistance only get one chance to protect you for each hit. What would make IH viable to turn back into a toggle is making it work once on each incoming hit -- you take the damage, and IH creates a heal on a delay, so that after a second or so, part of the damage 'instantly' heals. This would make it work like the existing Def and Res mechanics, allowing it to be balanced easier.

[Haijinx]

I thought we were nerfing regen?

[Troo]

Basically it is toggle-like when using auto-fire (ctrl+click). (yes, that means we can't do that with dull pain or hasten as before)

 

 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Troo

[TheMuna]

Instead of "I vote no" please bring something to the discussion. I pose it as a question because I wanted to hear opinions. Regen used to be overpowered in the beginning of the game when it was a toggle. If you didn't get alpha'd you could just stand in the middle of a mob and feel nothing.

 

But people talk about the extra clicks and how much more active it is compared to willpower so this seemed like a solution I guess. The absorb mechanic and a lower healing value would still make it less OP than it was before.

 

But again, I'm just curious as to why people would prefer the click. 

[TheMuna]

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

The thing that made IH overpowered as it was -- and a fundamental problem with Regen as a whole -- is that it applies itself to damage again and again; Defense and Resistance only get one chance to protect you for each hit. What would make IH viable to turn back into a toggle is making it work once on each incoming hit -- you take the damage, and IH creates a heal on a delay, so that after a second or so, part of the damage 'instantly' heals. This would make it work like the existing Def and Res mechanics, allowing it to be balanced easier.

But the it's applied to damage done. Which means you're always at risk. Anyone can come back from something if they're not dead. With Regen it would seem that you can find a way to balance it so that you get closer to death quicker but you balance it by coming back quicker.

 

[Sarrate]

3 minutes ago, TheMuna said:

1 hour ago, srmalloy said:

The thing that made IH overpowered as it was -- and a fundamental problem with Regen as a whole -- is that it applies itself to damage again and again; Defense and Resistance only get one chance to protect you for each hit. What would make IH viable to turn back into a toggle is making it work once on each incoming hit -- you take the damage, and IH creates a heal on a delay, so that after a second or so, part of the damage 'instantly' heals. This would make it work like the existing Def and Res mechanics, allowing it to be balanced easier.

But the it's applied to damage done. Which means you're always at risk. Anyone can come back from something if they're not dead. With Regen it would seem that you can find a way to balance it so that you get closer to death quicker but you balance it by coming back quicker.

Additionally, it doesn't scale.

 

Defense and Resistance work to reduce incoming damage, so they'd be mitigation a fraction of the incoming dps. The higher your damage intake, the more damage they mitigate. Healing and Regeneration, on the other hand, always provide X hp/sec, regardless of whether you're taking 10 dps or 10,000 dps. It's why Regen can be invincible (healing > dps) or dead very fast (healing < dps).

 

Also - in a weird way - all the healing effects being heals/regeneration means they can conflict a bit. What I mean is, all the regen in the world does nothing at full health. If a player uses Reconstruction to get to full health (fighting high damage mobs so being low on hp is dangerous), then their regeneration isn't regenerating any hp. If Regen had some absorb effects (for example, in Reconstruction), they could both get a buffer of hp while still regenerating under it. It would basically allow them to have more hp than their max hp to soak damage.

[SwitchFade]

18 minutes ago, TheMuna said:

Instead of "I vote no" please bring something to the discussion. I pose it as a question because I wanted to hear opinions. Regen used to be overpowered in the beginning of the game when it was a toggle. If you didn't get alpha'd you could just stand in the middle of a mob and feel nothing.

 

But people talk about the extra clicks and how much more active it is compared to willpower so this seemed like a solution I guess. The absorb mechanic and a lower healing value would still make it less OP than it was before.

 

But again, I'm just curious as to why people would prefer the click. 

Erm, I point you in the direction of the plethora of identical threads for requested reasons why no... That way.

 

Ad nauseum.

 

 

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, TheMuna said:

Instead of "I vote no" please bring something to the discussion. I pose it as a question because I wanted to hear opinions. Regen used to be overpowered in the beginning of the game when it was a toggle. If you didn't get alpha'd you could just stand in the middle of a mob and feel nothing.

 

But people talk about the extra clicks and how much more active it is compared to willpower so this seemed like a solution I guess. The absorb mechanic and a lower healing value would still make it less OP than it was before.

 

But again, I'm just curious as to why people would prefer the click. 

Because your OP is beating around the bush, not stating what you want to say and just implying you're ushering a conversation rather than just being frank. 

 

What does it matter that other effects are duplicated through sets/pools?  De-clutter the secondary?  What does that even mean?  Worrying about keeping IH up...I'd suggest don't.  Someone mentioned how regeneration can be wasted if you heal to max HP...well, how is making IH a toggle going to waste less?

 

Because you don't want to hear why I don't want IH as a toggle. I say, if you want to have a passive regen secondary, use Willpower. 

[Redlynne]

Click power = Instant Healing

Toggle power = CONSTANT Healing (that costs endurance)

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, Sarrate said:

Additionally, it doesn't scale.

Defense and Resistance work to reduce incoming damage, so they'd be mitigation a fraction of the incoming dps. The higher your damage intake, the more damage they mitigate. Healing and Regeneration, on the other hand, always provide X hp/sec, regardless of whether you're taking 10 dps or 10,000 dps. It's why Regen can be invincible (healing > dps) or dead very fast (healing < dps).

The way I visualize it is that it takes an enhanceable fraction of each incoming damage token (i.e., per tick for DoTs) and queue that as a heal, in the same way that Spectral Wounds applies damage and a delayed heal; if it was made to work for Spectral Wounds, the same mechanism can be used for IH.

[DR_Mechano]

40 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Because your OP is beating around the bush, not stating what you want to say and just implying you're ushering a conversation rather than just being frank. 

 

What does it matter that other effects are duplicated through sets/pools?  De-clutter the secondary?  What does that even mean?  Worrying about keeping IH up...I'd suggest don't.  Someone mentioned how regeneration can be wasted if you heal to max HP...well, how is making IH a toggle going to waste less?

 

Because you don't want to hear why I don't want IH as a toggle. I say, if you want to have a passive regen secondary, use Willpower. 

So you're suggestion is if you want a regen secondary take willpower despite Regeneration being NAMED Regeneration...how freaking wonky is that of an idea? I'm sorry but that just sounds like some ass backwards kind of thinking. REGENERATION should be the REGEN secondary not Willpower. Just because several sets have come along that eclipse Regeneration doesn't mean that we shouldn't make Regen all about health regen, that's just stupid IMO. I honestly hope the Devs don't share this way of thinking.

 

Regen seriously needs some buffs, in fact there are a LOT of powersets that were either overnerfed because of PvP complaints (Regen, Energy Melee) that never got rebuffed and are in serious need of being looked at again.

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, DR_Mechano said:

So you're suggestion is if you want a regen secondary take willpower despite Regeneration being NAMED Regeneration...how freaking wonky is that of an idea? I'm sorry but that just sounds like some ass backwards kind of thinking. REGENERATION should be the REGEN secondary not Willpower. Just because several sets have come along that eclipse Regeneration doesn't mean that we shouldn't make Regen all about health regen, that's just stupid IMO. I honestly hope the Devs don't share this way of thinking.

 

Regen seriously needs some buffs, in fact there are a LOT of powersets that were either overnerfed because of PvP complaints (Regen, Energy Melee) that never got rebuffed and are in serious need of being looked at again.

Then just rename Willpower to Regeneration.

 

I've been over this whole concept shenanigans in other threads, describe it with similes and no one ever bothers commenting after that.  No point wasting my time doing it again.

[DR_Mechano]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

Then just rename Willpower to Regeneration.

 

I've been over this whole concept shenanigans in other threads, describe it with similes and no one ever bothers commenting after that.  No point wasting my time doing it again.

Basically we're not going to see eye to eye on this. Your view is one way, mine is the other. You don't want Regen to be a Regen focused set because of...reasons...and I do...you don't want Instant Healing to be a toggle (I get that stalkers losing Quick Recovery makes it a PITA for them to run but Stalkers trade defense for offense so I have no problem with this) but I do. I still have no idea what the point is of not buffing Regen to be Regen focused just because Willpower does Regen...but whatever...

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, DR_Mechano said:

Basically we're not going to see eye to eye on this. Your view is one way, mine is the other. You don't want Regen to be a Regen focused set because of...reasons...and I do...you don't want Instant Healing to be a toggle (I get that stalkers losing Quick Recovery makes it a PITA for them to run but Stalkers trade defense for offense so I have no problem with this) but I do. I still have no idea what the point is of not buffing Regen to be Regen focused just because Willpower does Regen...but whatever...

And your point of view is completely superfluous.

 

No one said Regeneration WOULDN'T have regen.  And just because Invulnerability is named Invulnerability doesn't mean the character is invulnerable.

 

You're just pouting that just because the set requires active clicking that SUDDENLY it's not Regen?!

 

Go home.  You're drunk.

[DR_Mechano]

8 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

And your point of view is completely superfluous.

 

No one said Regeneration WOULDN'T have regen.  And just because Invulnerability is named Invulnerability doesn't mean the character is invulnerable.

 

You're just pouting that just because the set requires active clicking that SUDDENLY it's not Regen?!

 

Go home.  You're drunk.

Yes you're not saying Regen wouldn't have regen but you're saying that Regen SHOULDN'T BE the number one secondary when it comes to Regeneration despite having no defenses, very little resist and being all about constantly gaining back health. Also where did I complain about Regen requiring active clicking not making it regen, honestly POINT THAT OUT TO ME! Is it because I want Instant Healing as a toggle? Yeah no, that's not about Regen requiring clicking that's about making Regen ABOUT Regen, IH as a toggle makes it a constant regeneration buff...which is what Regen should be about along with healing. 

 

Hell I'd even take it so that IH was a toggle which gave a large absorb shield that refreshed every 10 seconds or so. It is clear the Absorb mechanic would far better be used on Regen but that wasn't a mechanic for 2/3rds of the games life (Dull pain would be an absorb shield if such a mechanic was around, lets be honest).

 

It was more you're strange thinking that because we just happen to have willpower...that somehow making Regen not the main focus of Regen at all was ok? Like I honestly don't get it?

 

Personally YOU'RE the one that's drunk, so maybe it's time you went home, last orders just rung.

Edited February 3, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Leogunner]

25 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Yes you're not saying Regen wouldn't have regen but you're saying that Regen SHOULDN'T BE the number one secondary when it comes to Regeneration despite having no defenses, very little resist and being all about constantly gaining back health.

If Pine's is to be believed, unslotted Regen reaches 1100% regen.

 

Willpower reaches 565% with 10 foes in range.

 

If you want to talk about changes to make Regen more about regen, why not complain about the amount of unenhanceable regen in the set?

 

Slotted Regen reaches 1500% while Willpower gets to 1100%

 

FYI, all of those comparisons put the Regeneration set at the top of +regen.

 

35 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Also where did I complain about Regen requiring active clicking not making it regen, honestly POINT THAT OUT TO ME!

The same place where I said "REGENERATION isn't the regen secondary, Willpower is!"

 

If you're going to try arguing with me, get your words straight.  I said if you want a PASSIVE regen set, play WP.  You apparently had a problem with that statement (as if Willpower isn't one of the most passive sets there is).  

 

39 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

It was more you're strange thinking that because we just happen to have willpower...that somehow making Regen not the main focus of Regen at all was ok? Like I honestly don't get it?

 

Personally YOU'RE the one that's drunk, so maybe it's time you went home, last orders just rung.

Obviously you're hung up on the word "Regeneration" so you've got this concept of a comic book regen guy constantly healing wounds.  That is emulated by Willpower.  If you're versed in the game's history and how the all the mechanics were uncovered and elaborated over time (back in those days, no one conceived what a "defense soft cap" was), perhaps you'd be more lenient with the description of the Regen set and understand that "putting a bunch of regen and heals in the set" was as close to "regeneration" as they could cook up until more testing came about in how defense, HP, resistance and regen played off each other.

 

To make Regeneration into the set you imagine it should be, you'd have to boost its defense and resistance levels to properly emulate the effect of regenerating damage over time.  Adding absorb is just a temporary HP buff that isn't affected by +regen (thus it's weaker).  Would it be better to add it?  Probably.  It wouldn't be Regen though.  Wolverine doesn't generate fake skin over his body to absorb damage so your blubbering about the name of the set gets hamstrung by your solution.

 

So I'll say it again.  I vote no for IH as a toggle.

[DR_Mechano]

Whatever like I said we're not going to see eye to eye on this and frankly I'm starting to dislike you as a person so I'm just going to end this by saying I vote yes for IH as a toggle.

[Leogunner]

6 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

Whatever like I said we're not going to see eye to eye on this and frankly I'm starting to dislike you as a person so I'm just going to end this by saying I vote yes for IH as a toggle.

And this is what happens when I start mincing about the whole "concept" argument for Regen.  Basically a "whatever, I'm done" and a flippant dismissal.

 

And need I remind you, you first interacted confrontationally with my post.

[DR_Mechano]

You have some points. Yes the regen does need to be enhanceable but your very first post came across as utterly nonsensical which was why I was so confrontational, they idea that if you wanted to play a concept like say, Wolverine, you were better off playing Willpower just made me go WTF. Plus you've admitted in the past that you like to prod the hornets nest just to see people react so I am rather wary of dealing with you.

 

Willpower isn't built around JUST passive regeneration which is why I do not see it as a regeneration focused set. It also has resistances and defenses. It's more akin to a less Smashing/Lethal focused Invuln with its secondary benefit being regen instead of more typed defense. Regen is built around just healing and regeneration, Regen doesn't just HAVE to be about passive regen, it should be about Regen AND healing, IH as a toggle helps that view in my regard. My suggestion for IH being a toggle with an absorb shield was a compromise since you seem dead set on not allowing it with its current state. Personally if I could I would rather see Regen get IH as a toggle back and have a lot of the regen enhanceable.