Removable Transparency Concealment PLZ

[TraumaTrain]

Let's go to flavor text town.

 

It's all head canon anyway. "Stealth" and "Invisibility" can be defined differently based on countless character concepts. A time themed guy picks up Stealth/Invis because in his concept, he is slightly out of sync in time. A psy themed girl picks it up and states she is mind tricking people around her into thinking no one is there. A kung fu martial artist is practicing the secret form of Chameleon's Shadow. And many more.

 

None of those people are actually turning transparent or invisible. 

 

Having an additional option of No FX for costuming purposes hurts no one.

[_NOPE_]

Just now, TraumaTrain said:

Let's go to flavor text town.

 

It's all head canon anyway. "Stealth" and "Invisibility" can be defined differently based on countless character concepts. A time themed guy picks up Stealth/Invis because in his concept, he is slightly out of sync in time. A psy themed girl picks it up and states she is mind tricking people around her into thinking no one is there. A kung fu martial artist is practicing the secret form of Chameleon's Shadow. And many more.

 

None of those people are actually turning transparent or invisible. 

 

Having an additional option of No FX for costuming purposes hurts no one.

Ironic that a hologram would say this...

[Haijinx]

None of the character concept flavor text stuff matter at all to the "See yourself on your screen only" suggestion.

 

[Sif]

4 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

The last time they adjusted the stealth power they nearly broke it. i like the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" especially considering its track record. Regardless of this i love stealth i take it nearly every single toon. However without some other CUE to indicate that's its currently being effective i have to vote no. 

A cue for yourself? There already is, it's called combat attributes/monitor (which is more accurate), plus the HIDDEN text for Stalkers. And, it'd be opt in, so it won't be forced upon anyone that'd prefer a more visual cue.

 

A cue for others, in PvP? Like a lot of other powers with minimal fx options, have it not do minimal fx in pvp. This'd be a problem solved long ago.

 

For teammates? In what situations? Grant Invisibility wouldn't be impacted (or, if it was, you'd be having to opt in to having it impacted). AoE stealth powers wouldn't be impacted (again, unless you opt in). It seems like it would be an extremely niche situation where it might make any difference. But, then, could also argue that mez protection should have obvious cues (playing my grav/emp, I was occasionally surprised by who would/wouldn't benefit from Clear Mind).

 

It seems like there's vague handwavy statements about why this is bad, without anyone willing to be specific with examples of how it'd hurt anything.

 

Quote

if it ain't broke don't fix it

I guess you're against every single cosmetic change, and, really, most changes, if that's your mantra.

[Replacement]

5 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

The last time they adjusted the stealth power they nearly broke it. i like the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" especially considering its track record. Regardless of this i love stealth i take it nearly every single toon. However without some other CUE to indicate that's its currently being effective i have to vote no. 

Where I come from, the saying is "If it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features."

 

I... may have surrounded myself with software engineers.

[Flashtoo]

My Fortunata "blends in" to her surroundings by a psychic cloak that makes her about as relevant-seeming as a sofa, or a random pigeon in the park.

If it were possible to do, I'd be in favor - however, I also understand it would take a lot of our development team's time and energy that I would sooner prioritize somewhere else.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

6 hours ago, Sif said:

A cue for yourself? There already is, it's called combat attributes/monitor (which is more accurate), plus the HIDDEN text for Stalkers. And, it'd be opt in, so it won't be forced upon anyone that'd prefer a more visual cue.

 

A cue for others, in PvP? Like a lot of other powers with minimal fx options, have it not do minimal fx in pvp. This'd be a problem solved long ago.

 

For teammates? In what situations? Grant Invisibility wouldn't be impacted (or, if it was, you'd be having to opt in to having it impacted). AoE stealth powers wouldn't be impacted (again, unless you opt in). It seems like it would be an extremely niche situation where it might make any difference. But, then, could also argue that mez protection should have obvious cues (playing my grav/emp, I was occasionally surprised by who would/wouldn't benefit from Clear Mind).

 

It seems like there's vague handwavy statements about why this is bad, without anyone willing to be specific with examples of how it'd hurt anything.

 

I guess you're against every single cosmetic change, and, really, most changes, if that's your mantra.

hello. Lets see. The entire point of the OP is he wants to see his/her character (which is fine) but i'm not sure many players would find checking the combat attributes every few seconds very immersive. Next you are entirely correct stalkers have HIDDEN but this text is only available FOR stalkers and the OP is talking about the stealth power pool. I never said this was a bad suggestion only that as long as there is no (reasonable, see above) way to determine if stealth was being effective, my vote is no.

Also dude i vote FOR 90% of the suggestions people make so long as they arent game breaking. While this isnt game breaking it does create a problem with no current solution. Again i use stealth on nearly every character. I use it for its function to be stealthy. So i need to know. Will i aggro that mob?

 

And lastly when i have grant invis, i cast it on teammates for that extra little bit of DEF cause every bit helps. Them being invis is my immediate cue that it doesn't need to be casted again. So when im going down the list and buffing teammates. If when i check 30 seconds later and someone is still visible i think "oh i must have  missed them in the heat of battle" and cast again, and then in 30 seconds later rinse and repeat. Realistically i realize this is a minor inconvenience, is rarely likely to happen and the only cost is a bit of end and time. However there is your niche situation where it may cause a problem.

[Roderick]

On 2/6/2020 at 11:47 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

1. Stalker hide has the words (hidden) in the upper righthand corner, stealth has no such function, how would you know if you are successfully hidden without the effect?

By tracking "Stealth Radius" in your Combat Attributes.

[Sif]

21 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

I never said this was a bad suggestion only that as long as there is no (reasonable, see above) way to determine if stealth was being effective, my vote is no.

Much more productive would have been suggesting a cue you'd think is good, or just saying you'd like a cue and leaving it at that. Having a different cue would be good regardless, because the transparency being slightly weaker is a pretty bad cue, doubly so if you have any noisy auras on. On Stalkers I watch for HIDDEN, on other ATs I either check the attributes monitor or don't bother just guestimate on the time (for me, removing transparency as a cue would have zero impact, because I already find it useless as a cue).

 

32 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

However there is your niche situation where it may cause a problem.

A problem with an easy solution: don't set your own powers to minimal fx if you find it is a worse experience.

[Roderick]

50 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i'm not sure many players would find checking the combat attributes every few seconds very immersive

Maybe it isn't immersive, but if you don't want to be ganked when stealthing missions, you do it anyways. You actually become transparent before the stealth reactivates; I started tracking Stealth Radius because if I just go when I'm transparent, I get attacked. 

 

And anyways, it's an option. Anyone choosing to use it is probably willing to use the Combat Attributes. It's not like adding a NoFX option would suddenly force everyone to use it. Like everything else, it would default to the current way.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

7 minutes ago, Roderick said:

By tracking "Stealth Radius" in your Combat Attributes.

Apologies man. i don't want to play with a cluttered interface especially when the cue is built right in as transparency.  This might be an effective solution but it isn't reasonable

[Roderick]

Just now, Saiyajinzoningen said:

Apologies man. i don't want to play with a cluttered interface especially when the cue is built right in as transparency.  This might be an effective solution but it isn't reasonable

Then don't do it?

 

Why do you object to a modification that is completely optional? Nobody is forcing you to turn on this option if it's implemented. But you are trying to force others to go without it.

 

Personally, I think that EVERY power that adds any effect to the player should have NoFX options, whether it's an aura, transparency, or anything else.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

4 minutes ago, Sif said:

Much more productive would have been suggesting a cue you'd think is good, or just saying you'd like a cue and leaving it at that. Having a different cue would be good regardless, because the transparency being slightly weaker is a pretty bad cue, doubly so if you have any noisy auras on. On Stalkers I watch for HIDDEN, on other ATs I either check the attributes monitor or don't bother just guestimate on the time (for me, removing transparency as a cue would have zero impact, because I already find it useless as a cue).

 

A problem with an easy solution: don't set your own powers to minimal fx if you find it is a worse experience.

Ahh you are correct. if they implemented a different cue such as the hidden text on stalkers then i would not mind the OP's suggestion as an option. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

15 minutes ago, Roderick said:

Then don't do it?

 

Why do you object to a modification that is completely optional? Nobody is forcing you to turn on this option if it's implemented. But you are trying to force others to go without it.

 

Personally, I think that EVERY power that adds any effect to the player should have NoFX options, whether it's an aura, transparency, or anything else.

LoL. 'Im not trying to force anyone to do anything i have an opinion i'm using it to vote. We are allowed to disagree.

 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Saiyajinzoningen

[Chance Jackson]

I vote yes to self-visible invisibility

[CU_Krow]

On ‎2‎/‎7‎/‎2020 at 4:32 PM, Riot Siren said:

I don't think quoting flavor text written in 2004ish before the game was even released and power customization was even on the radar is a really good argument.

 

Alot of powers go against their flavor text, especially after you take power customization into consideration, For example Flash from illusion

 

"Generates a brilliant flash of light around you that blinds nearby foes."

 

But you can make the power Dark and very dull if you like. Not really a Brilliant flash of light in that case.

 

Heck Dark Armor already lets you turn off the fade and the power states that 

 

"A shroud of Netherworld darkness envelops you, making you difficult to spot at a distance. You can be seen only at close range,"

If you turn off effects this is very much not the case and other players can see you at any distance.

 

Flavor text is just that, Flavor. CoH has always been about letting the player define how their character works. That's why we have things like power customization in the first place.

 

Ok Riot, I cede up my position from flavor text. You made a convincing argument/response in regards to that position.

 

However, I still do not agree with your overall position on power customization to the degree that you're stating. I just played a toon of mine who has Stealth for the added DEF, and I could see him entirely, no problem! No straining of eyes. Heck, I barely knew he was even in Stealth. For powers like Invisibility, I do not believe this should be an option. If you're going to do that for invisibility, then you mind as well do it for Granite Armor or even Kheldian powers.

Edited February 10, 2020 by CU_Krow

[Bossk_Hogg]

On 2/8/2020 at 4:49 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

LoL. 'Im not trying to force anyone to do anything i have an opinion i'm using it to vote. We are allowed to disagree.

 

While you are allowed to disagree, if your disagreement makes no sense, people will rightly think your opinion is uninformed. Your concerns are unrelated to the actual request. It would be an option that impacts the user, so if you care that much about a visual cue that your stealth is on, simply... don't turn that option on.n Its like objecting to minimal graphics for Hasten because you want to know when its up. 

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, CU_Krow said:

 

 

However, I still do not agree with your overall position on power customization to the degree that you're stating. I just played a toon of mine who has Stealth for the added DEF, and I could see him entirely, no problem! No straining of eyes.

You understand that not everyone has the same level of visual acuity, right?

 

Also Hide is like invisibility, not stealth.  So people with eye strain just shouldn't play stalkers. 

 

I play on a 32 inch screen and I have trouble.  I use Energy Glow on /EA to see my stalker.  

[Steampunkette]

Here's how I enjoy my costume when playing Stealth Characters:

 

I don't use Stealth unless I'm sneaking up on someone.

 

Seriously, I play Stalkers and I love them to death 'cause I'll stealth in, kick some ass, and then go into Stealth when it's time to move on to the next group.

 

Did my partner AFK? Are we slow-rolling because RP? Cool beans. Stealth is turned off and I'm chillin'. Oh. Time to roll? *Insert Stealth Noise here*

[Replacement]

Just want to say:
"All stealth powers are toggles" was probably the worst design directive in the entire game.  The only reason I don't enjoy my Stalkers is because I can't see them.  Probably because unlike @Steampunkette, I'll never remember to turn Hide off.

 

Ok, that aside out of the way, I'd like to hear a lot less "visible invisibility" as a term.  "Self-only" isn't good enough.  

 

Visible but Undetected is what's being asked for, and that's supported about a billion times in fiction.  

[Saiyajinzoningen]

4 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

While you are allowed to disagree, if your disagreement makes no sense, people will rightly think your opinion is uninformed. Your concerns are unrelated to the actual request. It would be an option that impacts the user, so if you care that much about a visual cue that your stealth is on, simply... don't turn that option on.n Its like objecting to minimal graphics for Hasten because you want to know when its up. 

my opinion isn't uninformed. almost all toggles have some visual indicator that they are on. The visual indicator for stealth is transparency (not even much tbh). I am a big fan of stealth if you have been playing awhile and read this entire thread you might have noticed the part where i explained that the last time they "adjusted stealth" they nearly broke it. I do understand that is is only an "option" that one can opt out on however; There are many other power(sets) that require love far more than yet another stealth adjustment. Stone melee for example.

Lastly, the transparency associated with powers that render a character invisible is generally conceptually correct.  Still a no from me without some visual indicator to replace its current one. 

[Replacement]

11 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

my opinion isn't uninformed. almost all toggles have some visual indicator that they are on. The visual indicator for stealth is transparency (not even much tbh). I am a big fan of stealth if you have been playing awhile and read this entire thread you might have noticed the part where i explained that the last time they "adjusted stealth" they nearly broke it. I do understand that is is only an "option" that one can opt out on however; There are many other power(sets) that require love far more than yet another stealth adjustment. Stone melee for example.

Lastly, the transparency associated with powers that render a character invisible is generally conceptually correct.  Still a no from me without some visual indicator to replace its current one. 

Um... I don't know how to say this without just seeming aggressive but... you're wrong.

You're wrong that toggles need a visual indicator (MinimalFX exists on a lot of sets, and is typically suppressed in PvP for good reason).

You're wrong that working on Stone Melee would at all impact the ability to implement a MinimalFX (obviously, HC folks wear several different hats, but typically this is a difference between your "Art" guy and your "Powers" guy).

You're wrong to assert that stealth must = transparency.  Like I said above, fiction is full of Unnoticeables. 

 

If you'd like an example of having a character like this that actually sticks around for several hundred thousand words, this is explored very thoroughly as one of the protagonists in the incredible (-y depressing shit-show) Web Serial about Superheroes Ruining Everything™, Worm.

[Haijinx]

It would be really cool if it was just a slider.

 

And you could decide how visible you were on the screen.

 

 

Or an IO that changed the transparency value.  

 

It seems transparency and stealth radius are different things?

[Bossk_Hogg]

39 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

my opinion isn't uninformed. almost all toggles have some visual indicator that they are on. The visual indicator for stealth is transparency (not even much tbh). I am a big fan of stealth if you have been playing awhile and read this entire thread you might have noticed the part where i explained that the last time they "adjusted stealth" they nearly broke it. I do understand that is is only an "option" that one can opt out on however; There are many other power(sets) that require love far more than yet another stealth adjustment. Stone melee for example.

Lastly, the transparency associated with powers that render a character invisible is generally conceptually correct.  Still a no from me without some visual indicator to replace its current one. 

But how would I know Hasten is on if my hands aren't glowing? How would I know I have demons if they aren't making annoying noises? You seem very protective of some hypothetical idiot that turned a "no fade" option on, has a negative play experience, and can't figure out how to turn it off lol. Thats what makes no sense. Were you opposed to letting people turn off the movement speed adjustment of speed boost?

 

Its a visual QOL adjustment, not mucking with stealth radius or anything. Stone Melee's adjustments would go in the power pass queue, and will likely happen when the other tanker sets are reviewed.  

[Saiyajinzoningen]

7 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Um... I don't know how to say this without just seeming aggressive but... you're wrong.

You're wrong that toggles need a visual indicator (MinimalFX exists on a lot of sets, and is typically suppressed in PvP for good reason).

You're wrong that working on Stone Melee would at all impact the ability to implement a MinimalFX (obviously, HC folks wear several different hats, but typically this is a difference between your "Art" guy and your "Powers" guy).

You're wrong to assert that stealth must = transparency.  Like I said above, fiction is full of Unnoticeables. 

 

If you'd like an example of having a character like this that actually sticks around for several hundred thousand words, this is explored very thoroughly as one of the protagonists in the incredible (-y depressing shit-show) Web Serial about Superheroes Ruining Everything™, Worm.

i like your buzzwords like "need and must" even though i never said them. Your exaggeration of me defending my opinion is fallacious at best. Please re-read my post and notice that

1. its unedited

2. i say ALMOST all toggles. I'm aware that tough and weave have no such visual indicator which is why its worded in that way.

3. I wasn't aware that you knew how much time and effort the homecoming team can afford to devote to aesthetics over game imbalances.

4. I said GENERALLY conceptually correct regarding invisible powers having transparency.

My earlier post is accurate and uses facts to support my opinion. I am aware there are characters that don't rely on optics to be unnoticed. Stealth performs and actual function that requires some visual cue to be effective for its purpose. Again i love stealth, i use stealth in all its glory. The transparency it imparts is minor and it requires no further change. Still a No from me