I Gave It a Shot

[Zeraphia]

I made a Fire/Bio/Psi Sentinel... This is pretty much the premier damage dealer for a sentinel minus fire/fire, I had intended on this to deal large amounts of AOE and *decent* ST. I was not expect TW/Bio Scrapper numbers obviously but I hoped to solo AVs *decently.*

 

It does accomplish the AV task, some AVs being harder than others, and it does provide a very nice role with the psi for the "invulnerable" enemies. It does *ok* AOE, sort of worse than I expected with Inferno + multi-proc'd psi shockwave. 

 

It survives VERY well, I mainly am comparing it to the blaster in my head, but it just faceplants so much less and has to work a lot less.

 

The problem is that this AT is just not *competitive* it's just not doing enough damage to compensate for the survival and the archetype isn't that known for its opportunity strikes, so I feel its rather wasted potential. I feel like for the same effect it gives, you could roll a much sturdier tanker or a much more damaging scrapper, or a defender/corruptor and it would do better. The sentinel "role" on a team feels very... "off" like there's no strict role it fills, no one really expects anything in particular of you other than to not die so often. 

 

I'm going to say this much, the inherent is just not the greatest. It's too much of a buildup for very little benefit overall and honestly I feel like it kinda "sucks." 

 

Maybe I'm too critical of this AT, I actually won't delete it because I feel as if with a buff to this AT, it would really shine and be a standout character but for now I'm just kind of puzzled about how I feel about it.

Edited February 23, 2020 by 33053222

[oldskool]

Bummer the AT didn't click for you.  Here's to hopes it gets a buff so more folks can enjoy it. 

[Force Redux]

OPs thoughts were mine as well. I've tried out a number of sentinels, including two to t3 incarnate (beam/ regeneration and electric / energy).

 

Fun solo, good all-rounder, but as a damage class on teams leaves a lot to be desired. Damage feels off by around 10% base too low. The inherent is rather arbitrary and would benefit from a stronger effect and the ability to choose when and on  which Target to occur without affecting my rotation.

 

I like the character, but I no longer bring that character on teams. If I want damage and survivability I'm better off with my stalker or my masterminds.

 

Would love to see some sort of buff to help the Sentinel to shine.

Edited February 24, 2020 by Force Redux

[Underfyre]

The class in general would just benefit from having blaster base damage alone. I've spent the last month dismantling the class for my spreadsheet, so I've gotten to know it very intimately. I like the idea of the inherent. It's a damage boost beyond just adding more % damage. Once someone is capped on % damage, the inherent can carry them past that, but 5% baseline is pretty weak. The 20% opportunity with added energy damage or healing is ...alright? Granted that's very powerful when you have several Sentinels attacking the same target, but the ability only triggers on 1 target in an AOE, which is a lot of this game.

 

If the class is there to bolster the groups damage output and take a punch, go all in.  Basically make the class a full on ranged tank/debuffer. Increase the debuff by the number of people in the team. Increase target caps, keep the same middling damage numbers. Raise the damage resistance cap to 80%. Replace some of the powers in the secondary with debuffs. Make the debuff apply in AOE situations.

 

If the class is there to deal acceptable damage and not fall over immediately, give it some actual damage numbers. Make the Build Up 100% like Blasters and Scrappers. 50% is support levels of lame. If you keep it at 50%, make it last longer. One of the TWO Blaster Build Ups last for 10 seconds, make Sentinels last for 20-25 instead and keep it at 50%. Maintaining the 5% res debuff would be somewhat justifiable then since more people might play the class and you'd have multiple people stacking that 5% debuff. Make the debuff apply in AOE situations. Again.

Edited February 25, 2020 by underfyre

[SwitchFade]

Heh, my 50+ water/SR does really wall at soloing +4/8 quickly. Tough, ignores alpha, carries a group by nuking every group. Blaster level damage? No, but the value of effortlessly consistently laying waste is all the fun. I regularly run farms and drag 7 other people with me. First in, first to Nuke, wipe all the minions and the lt's at 1/5 health.

 

I frequently get surprised reactions from anyone I team with on just how powerful the toon is. Especially when brutes are going down and I'm in full on SentLock.

 

Sorry it didn't click for you. I agree sents need some polishing, but I will say that Water/SR is magic.

[Zeraphia]

3 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Heh, my 50+ water/SR does really wall at soloing +4/8 quickly. Tough, ignores alpha, carries a group by nuking every group. Blaster level damage? No, but the value of effortlessly consistently laying waste is all the fun. I regularly run farms and drag 7 other people with me. First in, first to Nuke, wipe all the minions and the lt's at 1/5 health.

 

I frequently get surprised reactions from anyone I team with on just how powerful the toon is. Especially when brutes are going down and I'm in full on SentLock.

 

Sorry it didn't click for you. I agree sents need some polishing, but I will say that Water/SR is magic.

As nice as you make this sound, in reality, it's actually still not as competitive as you'd think. 

Yes, it can potentially do that, I grant you this, but at the same time, the nuke is actually kind of pathetic damage... really... I know it sounds odd but look at the game for what it is. You can deal the same damage on a Scrapper with a psuedopet no crit with LR and have ANOTHER "nuke" in SC. The stalker can do these same things, and the have BETTER ST.
The Scrapper also receives better survivability, also achieves higher numerical values, and quite honestly if any Sentinel can do +4/x8, you can bet a Scrapper in 99% of cases can do the *exact* *same* *thing* and succeed at it waaaaaay better. Hell, Controllers can solo +4/x8. Dominators can actually speed clear somethings faster than you could even imagine. Defenders as well, tough, but they can be made to.

Water by definition is the most AOE of any primary even if it doesn't hit the hardest, but I can tell you my Sentinel is fire/bio/psi, I proc'd out the hold, fire has by default the highest DPAs along with Bio Armor Offensive boosting that, and it still takes me a pathetic amount of time to kill a boss. 

 

In fact, there are a variety of combinations of Scrappers that deal regularly over what these "nukes" do, and they clean up bosses much better than the Sentinel, the 10 enemy cap is super lame. One such example is a TW Scrapper's Arc of Destruction (up 4x as often, very often does more than double what these nukes do). Almost every single Scrapper's PBAOE if it criticals does more damage than the Sentinel nukes. In reality, a Tanker can honestly clear the things that sentinels do in the same amount of time... and attain probably quadruple the survivability. The Tanker's reliable "Jab" T1 -30 res to enemy honestly does more and is 100% reliable vs. Sentinel offensive opportunity which does less -res, isn't even the Tanker's INHERENT mind you, and also has to build a whole METER to use it. Nothing counteracts the fact that the inherent is just terrible and this AT as a whole is just not *competitive.*

[oldskool]

10 hours ago, underfyre said:

If the class is there to deal acceptable damage and not fall over immediately, give it some actual damage numbers. Make the Build Up 100% like Blasters and Scrappers. 50% is support levels of lame. If you keep it at 50%, make it last longer. One of the TWO Blaster Build Ups last for 10 seconds, make Sentinels last for 20-25 instead and keep it at 50%. Maintaining the 5% res debuff would be somewhat justifiable then since more people might play the class and you'd have multiple people stacking that 5% debuff. Make the debuff apply in AOE situations. Again.

Blasters have access to Aim and/or Build-Up.  Aim and Aim-like replacements (e.g., Swap Ammo) are found in ranged attack sets.  Build-Up and Build-Up-like replacements (Blinding Feint/Follow Up) are found in melee attack sets.  Dominator assault sets are mixed bag with a set here or there having actual Build-Up and several others having Power Boost. 

Sentinels going in the direction of the Dominator sounds really good on paper, but Dual Pistols exists.  If all other sets gained Build-Up (or I'd wet myself over Power Boost), then Dual Pistols starts to lag even further behind.  As it currently stands, Swap Ammo is nothing even close to being as effective as Build-Up replacements of Blinding Feint/Follow Up.  It doesn't even keep pace with Aim.  If the other Sentinel primaries get Build-Up, then the Sentinel Dual Pistols needs a serious overhaul (it probably does anyway). 

 

So there are facets here where tweaking specific powers elsewhere can have ripple effects where other sets may need an entire overhaul.  If a balanced play experience is the end result, then I am all for it.  However, this is a dead game with people volunteering time to keep it available. 

 

I'm also for simple solutions on the inherent and general Sentinel AT features.  Some of my own wish list items:

 

- Increase the defensive modifiers from 0.70 to 0.75

- Increase base damage even if it is at the expense of the resistance debuff

- Roll the Offensive and Defensive side features (bonus damage/resource return) into a unified effect

- Either decouple the trigger mechanic from the first two powers entirely OR allow either of them to trigger the unified effect above

- Critical hits.  That MAY be a stretch if the other topics became a reality but Scourge isn't really like critical hits so there isn't a true ranged class with that feature.  Might step too far on Scrapper/Stalkers toes and I don't want to diminish those ATs (of which I play too). 

 

Despite my own wish list of things, I still like the Sentinel enough to have 10 of them in my roster with various levels.  More than one has full Incarnates (even multiple in a category like Destiny) and a complete expensive IO build.  I'm far too much of an alt-o-holic to stick with one character.  I enjoy several of various ATs so the current damage state isn't such a turn off for me as it appears to be for so many others.  Still, buffs are welcome.

[SwitchFade]

6 hours ago, 33053222 said:

As nice as you make this sound, in reality, it's actually still not as competitive as you'd think. 

Yes, it can potentially do that, I grant you this, but at the same time, the nuke is actually kind of pathetic damage... really... I know it sounds odd but look at the game for what it is. You can deal the same damage on a Scrapper with a psuedopet no crit with LR and have ANOTHER "nuke" in SC. The stalker can do these same things, and the have BETTER ST.
The Scrapper also receives better survivability, also achieves higher numerical values, and quite honestly if any Sentinel can do +4/x8, you can bet a Scrapper in 99% of cases can do the *exact* *same* *thing* and succeed at it waaaaaay better. Hell, Controllers can solo +4/x8. Dominators can actually speed clear somethings faster than you could even imagine. Defenders as well, tough, but they can be made to.

Water by definition is the most AOE of any primary even if it doesn't hit the hardest, but I can tell you my Sentinel is fire/bio/psi, I proc'd out the hold, fire has by default the highest DPAs along with Bio Armor Offensive boosting that, and it still takes me a pathetic amount of time to kill a boss. 

 

In fact, there are a variety of combinations of Scrappers that deal regularly over what these "nukes" do, and they clean up bosses much better than the Sentinel, the 10 enemy cap is super lame. One such example is a TW Scrapper's Arc of Destruction (up 4x as often, very often does more than double what these nukes do). Almost every single Scrapper's PBAOE if it criticals does more damage than the Sentinel nukes. In reality, a Tanker can honestly clear the things that sentinels do in the same amount of time... and attain probably quadruple the survivability. The Tanker's reliable "Jab" T1 -30 res to enemy honestly does more and is 100% reliable vs. Sentinel offensive opportunity which does less -res, isn't even the Tanker's INHERENT mind you, and also has to build a whole METER to use it. Nothing counteracts the fact that the inherent is just terrible and this AT as a whole is just not *competitive.*

Again, sorry you're unimpressed. *Shrug* You seem pretty vehemently opposed to people who are impressed with the AT, even when they agree the AT needs a bit of polishing. Perhaps you should not play sentinels? I accept your views, perhaps you could be accepting as well?

 

Differing opinions do not invalidate each other, so, it's probably ok that your opinion isn't fact, neither is mine. However, in light of the fact there are those that disagree with you in some ways would be an indicator that your proclamations are not quite accurate.

 

So, even though I'm making it sound "nice," it's probably quite a good deal more "competitive" than you think. Compromise is honorable, no?

Edited February 25, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Coyote]

8 hours ago, 33053222 said:

One such example is a TW Scrapper's Arc of Destruction

 

I'm not sure, given the relatively popular opinion that TW's damage is an outlier and not really balanced... that it is reasonable to use the outlier set's most damaging AoE attack as "one such example" and implying that this is the normal damage for Scrapper AoE attacks. TW is unbalanced, using it as the point to which other sets should be balanced is not going to result in better balance.

 

I'm not saying anything about Sentinel damage, good or bad... or about the comparison between Scrapper and Sentinel damage. Just that balancing arguments are best done when using balanced powers/powersets for comparison.

[Zeraphia]

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

I'm not sure, given the relatively popular opinion that TW's damage is an outlier and not really balanced... that it is reasonable to use the outlier set's most damaging AoE attack as "one such example" and implying that this is the normal damage for Scrapper AoE attacks. TW is unbalanced, using it as the point to which other sets should be balanced is not going to result in better balance.

 

I'm not saying anything about Sentinel damage, good or bad... or about the comparison between Scrapper and Sentinel damage. Just that balancing arguments are best done when using balanced powers/powersets for comparison.

But Fire Blast's inferno is an outlier as well. I'm comparing outlier to outlier here, although maybe one outlier is moreso an outlier than another outlier, they're still outliers within the ATs. However, I said again in the post "just about any PBAOE the Scrapper has" from ANY set if it criticals deals more damage than these "nukes" and is up about 5x more often. I understand you lost some amount of damage for being both ranged, and given a defensive primary, but it makes the Archetype relative to EVERYTHING else not competitive. A sentinel is not made to specifically defend a team, it doesn't deal the same damage as a Scrapper or Stalker, it does around the damage a Tanker does and has 1/4 the survivability. Bottom line: the post wasn't to point out TW in specific, it was relative to EVERYTHING ELSE it is not competitive. 

 

Quote

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Again, sorry you're unimpressed. *Shrug* You seem pretty vehemently opposed to people who are impressed with the AT, even when they agree the AT needs a bit of polishing. Perhaps you should not play sentinels? I accept your views, perhaps you could be accepting as well?

 

Differing opinions do not invalidate each other, so, it's probably ok that your opinion isn't fact, neither is mine. However, in light of the fact there are those that disagree with you in some ways would be an indicator that your proclamations are not quite accurate.

 

So, even though I'm making it sound "nice," it's probably quite a good deal more "competitive" than you think. Compromise is honorable, no?

 

But this isn't about "differing opinions." This isn't about how "impressive" it is, it is about how competitive the AT actually is and the numbers backing it. The fact is that Sentinel damage is legitimately at Tanker-levels for 1/4 the survivability and almost 1/2 the Scrapper-level damage with less range than all other ranged ATs along with probably the objectively 2nd worst inherent mechanic (cake topper is starting out VEATs that only attain the recovery/regen bonus that I don't notice but these easily gain better tools later on with inherents that are much better). There's no "opinion" about it other than the fairly objective opinion that the inherent is one of worst. 

 

I am not vehemently opposed to people finding certain aspects of the AT "impressive" but if you look beyond the very high damage pricetag you paid for the short cooldown "mini-nuke," the Sentinel is very arguably and numerically inferior to Scrapper, Tanker, Stalker, Defender, Corruptor, Brute and Blaster (especially late game) on a multitude of levels just by default strict numbers in survivability/DPS/target caps. This becomes especially true if Stalkers/Scrappers/Tankers/Brutes receive the new revision to the Dark Consumption featured on beta, which actually deals more damage than the Sentinel nuke can possibly and they all each have better survivability numbers. 

 

Am I being "harsh" and possibly "unfair" in these assessments? Maybe to you, but that is how the meta is and how it compares now to other AT who completely outclass everything Sentinel is/does and I think every AT deserves its place to be special at what it does and I think Homecoming and the former team did a wonderful job at giving every AT something distinguishable and beneficial for a team or solo environment, this AT is just flat in comparison and doesn't do anything another AT can't with better things attached to it and that is factual by looking at the hardcore numbers. 

[SwitchFade]

46 minutes ago, 33053222 said:

But Fire Blast's inferno is an outlier as well. I'm comparing outlier to outlier here, although maybe one outlier is moreso an outlier than another outlier, they're still outliers within the ATs. However, I said again in the post "just about any PBAOE the Scrapper has" from ANY set if it criticals deals more damage than these "nukes" and is up about 5x more often. I understand you lost some amount of damage for being both ranged, and given a defensive primary, but it makes the Archetype relative to EVERYTHING else not competitive. A sentinel is not made to specifically defend a team, it doesn't deal the same damage as a Scrapper or Stalker, it does around the damage a Tanker does and has 1/4 the survivability. Bottom line: the post wasn't to point out TW in specific, it was relative to EVERYTHING ELSE it is not competitive. 

 

But this isn't about "differing opinions." This isn't about how "impressive" it is, it is about how competitive the AT actually is and the numbers backing it. The fact is that Sentinel damage is legitimately at Tanker-levels for 1/4 the survivability and almost 1/2 the Scrapper-level damage with less range than all other ranged ATs along with probably the objectively 2nd worst inherent mechanic (cake topper is starting out VEATs that only attain the recovery/regen bonus that I don't notice but these easily gain better tools later on with inherents that are much better). There's no "opinion" about it other than the fairly objective opinion that the inherent is one of worst. 

 

I am not vehemently opposed to people finding certain aspects of the AT "impressive" but if you look beyond the very high damage pricetag you paid for the short cooldown "mini-nuke," the Sentinel is very arguably and numerically inferior to Scrapper, Tanker, Stalker, Defender, Corruptor, Brute and Blaster (especially late game) on a multitude of levels just by default strict numbers in survivability/DPS/target caps. This becomes especially true if Stalkers/Scrappers/Tankers/Brutes receive the new revision to the Dark Consumption featured on beta, which actually deals more damage than the Sentinel nuke can possibly and they all each have better survivability numbers. 

 

Am I being "harsh" and possibly "unfair" in these assessments? Maybe to you, but that is how the meta is and how it compares now to other AT who completely outclass everything Sentinel is/does and I think every AT deserves its place to be special at what it does and I think Homecoming and the former team did a wonderful job at giving every AT something distinguishable and beneficial for a team or solo environment, this AT is just flat in comparison and doesn't do anything another AT can't with better things attached to it and that is factual by looking at the hardcore numbers. 

Thanks for your opinion, which is what we are discussing as there is little fact here, and that is perfectly fine. Bare in mind concepts such as performance, meta, competitive, outclassed and better are subjective. Better at what? Competitive at what? Performing how?

 

Sentinels survive much better than brutes in many cases, so... better? I've watched whole teams wipe that I chug on through to their amazement. How do we measure better?

 

I have absorbed alpha that kills brutes and tanks, is that better?

 

I routinely out damage scrapers, is that better?

 

I have zero endurance issues at any level on a sentinel, but many other classes gasp. Where is the marker for better?

 

I watch as blasters faceplant repeatedly from 1-50, but... They're better, yes?

 

My nuke is up for every group, but, wait, it's not better. Why isn't it?

 

I have built in self heal that allows me to be self sufficient, is that worse than a scrapper with no self heal?

 

The list goes on. No, not the list proving how anything is better, the list demonstrating that your perspective is subjective, an opinion. For example, I think corruptors suck, having tried several, and I will not play one because to me, they are terrible. But are the factually? No, I'm sure plenty of things about the class are wonderful.

 

To sum, I disagree with your persective and am unconvinced by your method of comparison; hence, in my opinion you are incorrect. That's the Great thing about perspective, yeah? We can both disagree and be happy.

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by SwitchFade

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, 33053222 said:

very arguably and numerically inferior to Scrapper, Tanker, Stalker, Defender, Corruptor, Brute and Blaster (especially late game) on a multitude of levels just by default strict numbers in survivability/DPS/target caps.

I think there is some truth here if you're only talking a narrow band of the player base that takes the time to deep dive into optimization.  People looking to highly optimize aren't playing sets of anything less than Titan Weapons OR Mace for Scrappers/Brutes/Tankers, Street Justice for Stalkers (or Dual Blades with extreme recharge), Fire Blast on any ranged AT, and so on. 

Its just not a fair comparison to play anything less than the most optimized pairings of powers with the most expensive IOs chosen for the best bonuses.  Incarnates too. 

The reality of the game though is most people don't do that.  Still, the Sentinel does need a review but just how much of one is certainly debatable.

 

Edit: And if survivability/DPS/targets plus utility are all that matters, there are options in the Mastermind/Controller/Dominator category that can put pretty much every damn one of those other ATs to shame.  I guess they need to be listed as better than the Sentinel in every way too.

Edited February 25, 2020 by oldskool

[Zeraphia]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Thanks for your opinion, which is what we are discussing as there is little fact here, and that is perfectly fine. Bare in mind concepts such as performance, meta, competitive, outclassed and better are subjective. Better at what? Competitive at what? Performing how?

 

Sentinels survive much better than brutes in many cases, so... better? I've watched whole teams wipe that I chug on through to their amazement. How do we measure better?

 

I have absorbed alpha that kills brutes and tanks, is that better?

 

I routinely out damage scrapers, is that better?

 

I have zero endurance issues at any level on a sentinel, but many other classes gasp. Where is the marker for better?

 

I watch as blasters faceplant repeatedly from 1-50, but... They're better, yes?

 

My nuke is up for every group, but, wait, it's not better. Why isn't it?

 

I have built in self heal that allows me to be self sufficient, is that worse than a scrapper with no self heal?

 

The list goes on. No, not the list proving how anything is better, the list demonstrating that your perspective is subjective, an opinion. For example, I think corruptors suck, having tried several, and I will not play one because to me, they are terrible. But are the factually? No, I'm sure plenty of things about the class are wonderful.

 

To sum, I disagree with your persective and am unconvinced by your method of comparison; hence, in my opinion you are incorrect. That's the Great thing about perspective, yeah? We can both disagree and be happy.

 

These are anecdotes. Strict numbers (Bio Sentinel v. Bio Scrapper - base stats ONLY assuming no special adaptations):

Sent Energy resistance: 3.5% - Scrapper Energy resistance: 2.8%

Sent Negative resistance: 3.5% - Scrapper Negative resistance: 2.8%

Sent Smashing resistance: 22.8% - Scrapper Smashing resistance: 22.5%

Sent Lethal resistance: 22.8% - Scrapper Lethal resistance: 22.5%

Sent Cold resistance: 3.5% - Scrapper Cold resistance: 2.8%

Sent Fire resistance: 3.5% - Scrapper Fire resistance: 2.8%

Sent Toxic resistance: 24.5% - Scrapper Toxic resistance: 22.5%
Sent Psionic resistance: 4.2% - Scrapper Psionic resistance: 2.3%

Sent Energy defense: 10.5% - Scrapper Energy defense: 11.3%

Sent Negative defense: 10.5% - Scrapper Negative defense: 11.3%

Sent Fire defense: 10.5% - Scrapper Fire defense: 11.3%

Sent Cold defense: 10.5% - Scrapper Cold defense: 11.3%

Sent Psionic defense: 10.5% - Scrapper Psionic defense: 5.6%

Sentinel base HP: 1205 - Scrapper base HP: 1339

Sent Regen: 290% - Scrapper Regen: 290%

(keep in mind the lower res numbers on Scrapper aren't 100% accurate given that Evolving armor does end up surpassing and giving scrappers unilaterally more resistance across the board)
 

You sure can build both to be able to do that, but at the end of the day assuming both are built equally well and the same secondary chosen, a Scrapper will absorb an alpha better than the Sentinel would in every single case except for possibly Regen due to the differing absorb shield. The Scrapper will, in most combinations, out damage the Sentinel counterpart assuming both are equally slotted for it. Keep in mind, these are also the SCRAPPER numbers, not the BRUTE numbers you're speaking of which dwarf the Sentinel's. 

 

I can already see the "well Sentinels don't have to get into melee range, they can just Hover" argument coming at me from someone, at that point, you can cap ranged defense on a Blaster, have the same HP baseline and survive almost the exact same if you play/go for that due to Ranged defense just being the bread and butter of survivability with Hover. Sure, there are resistances, regeneration, absorbs, debuff resistances that Sentinels can access that Blasters can't, but the Blaster with ranged defense and Hover (assuming enemy doesn't do -fly, but even if it does, that means there's no benefit in terms of survival for Sentinels vs Scrapper there either) was near immortal at that point anyways, especially if they built resistances high as well, and Blaster vs. Sentinel damage I shouldn't even have to go into for why it's less damaging.

 

For argument's sake I'll take a very underperforming AOE set for a Scrapper: Martial Arts' Dragon Tail base damage at 81.2
Sentinel's inferno (this is the highest damaging T9 that you can take besides Blizzard/Overcharge and it dishes out its total damage all at once) base damage: 173.9

If Martial Arts' Dragon Tail crits it has a baseline of 162.4... (with Scrapper ATO, critical strikes can be pretty "on demand")

Take ANY other T9 from any other primary (besides Overcharge, Inferno, and Blizzard) Nova, Thunderous Blast, Hail of Bullets, Blackstar, AR, Archery, Psychic Wail, Atomic Blast, Dreadful Wail, and Geyser ALL deal less damage than the Dragon Tail AOE with crit. That is sad. The Scrapper's PBAOE usually in the 10-20 second cooldown baseline range does MORE DAMAGE with crit than all but 3 of the Sentinel T9's with over 4x the cooldown. This is also one of the most underperforming AOE sets for Scrapper possible, I'm not even trying to bring in sets like Rad Melee, Spines, or TW into the equation which will invalidate even the highest Sentinel damage T9 baselines. 

Edited February 25, 2020 by 33053222

[Coyote]

I don't think it's worth the time to go through all of this, so I'll say a few short pieces:

 

1: Comparing an 8' PBAoE against 20-25' AoEs/PBAoEs? You'd expect higher damage from smaller AoEs.

2: I don't know about others, but I see major control/debuff effects on Sentinel nukes that make them useable as openers that shut down spawns in addition to doing a good amount of damage, while most Scrapper AoEs are far more damage oriented.

3: Crits aren't on demand. Their chance to occur should be calculated, and the base damage of a power multiplied by the chance to crit bonus, rather than just saying that they happen a lot and then going on assuming that "a lot" is "all the time". That's not good math, if you're going to go so deeply into math.

4: By the same type of argument, ranged damage taken is a lot less, so handwaving away a Sentinel's benefit from having even moderate range doesn't feel right.

5: Similarly, Sentinels will take damage far better than a Blaster. Sentinels with Defense sets will have Defense Debuff Resistance, and they all also have status protection. Granted that Blaster clearly do far more damage, but arguing that Blaster defenses are equivalent to Sentinel defenses at range, ignoring the large differences, and then fixating on 1% difference in base stats for Sentinel vs Scrapper defenses, just seems myopic.

 

This is getting long, so I'll try again to shorten it: your arguments may be right. And they may be wrong. But you're not giving them a good mathematical grounding, leaving aside the whole opinion about what is better and more important when looking at different abilities. And as long as you're going to treat opposing arguments as irrelevant while saying that yours are overwhelmingly important, it's not a discussion that's worth having. To me, Sentinels seem fine... a bit lacking in value for a team due to lacking a focus even more than Scrappers, but still decent enough and excellent soloists.

[Frosticus]

ya, dragon's tail doesn't hit anything outside of 8ft. It is objectively junk compared to a sentinel nuke in ease of use and practical application. I also consider quite a few scrapper combos overtuned and their ATO should either be a 1ppm w/ 50% crit or a 3 ppm 15% crit. It currently gives them stalker-esque crits on demand. 

 

The only powers scrappers have that hold up to a sentinel nuke is savage leap with procs, lightning rod and shield charge.  None of which overshadow their nukes even with superior scrapper damage. 

 

My experience with sentinels is that they deal medium to high aoe damage and low to medium single target damage and do it about as safe as most tanks once you factor in that most aggro isn't directed at them. I can't say I greatly enjoy playing them personally, but I'd expect to see a significant cut to their survivability in order to increase their damage to the point that I'd like them. 

[Zeraphia]

36 minutes ago, Coyote said:

I don't think it's worth the time to go through all of this, so I'll say a few short pieces:

 

1: Comparing an 8' PBAoE against 20-25' AoEs/PBAoEs? You'd expect higher damage from smaller AoEs.

2: I don't know about others, but I see major control/debuff effects on Sentinel nukes that make them useable as openers that shut down spawns in addition to doing a good amount of damage, while most Scrapper AoEs are far more damage oriented.

3: Crits aren't on demand. Their chance to occur should be calculated, and the base damage of a power multiplied by the chance to crit bonus, rather than just saying that they happen a lot and then going on assuming that "a lot" is "all the time". That's not good math, if you're going to go so deeply into math.

4: By the same type of argument, ranged damage taken is a lot less, so handwaving away a Sentinel's benefit from having even moderate range doesn't feel right.

5: Similarly, Sentinels will take damage far better than a Blaster. Sentinels with Defense sets will have Defense Debuff Resistance, and they all also have status protection. Granted that Blaster clearly do far more damage, but arguing that Blaster defenses are equivalent to Sentinel defenses at range, ignoring the large differences, and then fixating on 1% difference in base stats for Sentinel vs Scrapper defenses, just seems myopic.

 

This is getting long, so I'll try again to shorten it: your arguments may be right. And they may be wrong. But you're not giving them a good mathematical grounding, leaving aside the whole opinion about what is better and more important when looking at different abilities. And as long as you're going to treat opposing arguments as irrelevant while saying that yours are overwhelmingly important, it's not a discussion that's worth having. To me, Sentinels seem fine... a bit lacking in value for a team due to lacking a focus even more than Scrappers, but still decent enough and excellent soloists.

I never once stated my opinion was better, I said it wasn't so much of an opinion as it was looking straight at the numbers of what Sentinels have.

 

1. The 8' PBAoE vs the 20-25' PBAoE sounds so massive right? I'd agree except... as I've pointed out before... They both have the same 10 target maximum cap, that's also one of the lowest damaging PBAoE's in the possible Scrapper combinations. Bottom line, despite how wide it is, you're still hitting the same amount of targets. 

2. What major debuff are you speaking of? The inherent "opportunity" is as far as I can tell single target and only after you've built up a Meter, unless you're speaking of a blast secondary effect (e.g. -tohit from dark blast) or a secondary effect to one of the Defense sets, I don't know what debuffing this does strictly on its own. 

3. You slot the Crit Strikes ATO in a longer recharge power in a damaging aura, and it goes off like Christmas, ( 3 + 3, 6 + 6) you get 6% min/lei and 12% boss with the other ATO, this means your chances for crit AOEs is actually very high, enough for it to have crit probably once out of the four or more times the recharge on the Sentinel nuke would grant you. Stalkers get the criticals on demand from rehiding. No matter how flawed you see that, no matter how "situational" you can make it, the fact is it is just more useful and honestly more damaging over the duration of a fight than Sentinel's. 20 second recharges are still not always mob-to-mob, 4-5 seconds is very much so. 

 

This should be noted, this is *only* using the example of one very lackluster Scrapper AOE, not one of the better ones. Lightning Rod actually does flat out more damage although can't be crit than any of the nukes just on baseline damage. The Dark Consumption in beta currently makes Sentinel T9's look... sad... TW as a whole just totally blows Sentinels straight out the water. These are the "outliers" yes, but that's more than a few sets that do what these T9's if not better. Savage Melee's leap, shorter recharge, can actually be criticalled, does flat more damage.  These sets almost all have a 100% damage buff buildup, the Sentinel gets a 50% one. Do you see the gaps here?

 

Based on that, I think the T9 should get a bit of a buff, not quite blaster-level obviously, but maybe do 60-70% of what a Blaster's normal T9 does rather than 50% or less.
 

4. But that's how it is, you either can be in the thick of melee and deal more damage, or you can hover around, at which point if you're strictly hovering around the gap between Blaster built and IO'd vs Sentinel in survivabilities is not large by any means. 

5. Yes and no, if you're hovering around and not in melee range whatsoever, while a blaster may still die to extreme AOE/situations the Sentinel may survive to some of said occasions, the gap in survivability because of positioning and defense on top of the resistance that blasters can still get actually isn't near as wide as you'd be made to believe. They start at the same HP, have the same def/res caps.

 

I never said "they're so bad they can't solo anything" that was never a point of my post and nowhere did I say this, I have said however that their damage output takes a steep hit to the point where they're not as competitive as other ATs, they feel like they're trying to be a watered-down Blaster/Scrapper/Corruptor hybrid with a much worse inherent than the formers and weaker powers in all categories than the formers. 

[Coyote]

1 hour ago, 33053222 said:

2. What major debuff are you speaking of?

 

For example: with the right IOs and damage procs, my build's Psychic Wail will be up at the start of every fight, and do a 12 second Stun to 10 targets with a nice radius. And a -70% Recharge debuff for 20 seconds. Oh, and 500 damage.

 

It gets followed by Engulfing Darkness (APP power) that with procs is about 370. These are up every fight for damage equivalent to Blaste-level nukes, with solid debuffs and status effects.

 

The Electric Blast one has a similarly strong opening salvo except that I think it does a bit less damage but zeroes out the Endurance of the targets hit. Both characters still have some follow-up AoEs like Psychic Tornado, Ball Lightning, etc. Yes, a Scrapper's AoE salvo is up faster, but does it matter? This is still up every fight except for facerolling teams (in which case, does it matter much?), puts out debuffs or controls that limits return fire, and puts out a lot of damage when you want it, at the beginning of the fight.

 

As Frosty said, the AoE damage is solid, it's the single-target DPS where they're not that good. Even with a proc-designed build that takes advantage of having both a longer-recharge attack in most sets and access to a Hold with longer recharge, it's still hard to build a top single-target DPS character with a Sentinel. But they survive well enough to last longer against a boss, and clear the trash pretty well for a character with solid defenses.

 

I am not arguing to say that they're a top AT, or that they don't have problems, especially teaming at the top levels. But I don't understand why you're picking on their AoE damage, which to me looks like their strength (well, that and a solid mix of range/defense), while their single-target weakness and lack of team abilities are their weaknesses.

[nihilii]

9 hours ago, 33053222 said:

Bottom line, despite how wide it is, you're still hitting the same amount of targets.

This is unrealistic in any context that isn't an AE roaming farm.

You cannot just handwave it away as "enemies will be in melee eventually" or "I will herd every group around the corner". Time spent herding or waiting is DPS lost compared to jumping in and using a 25' radius right away.

 

9 hours ago, 33053222 said:

Based on that, I think the T9 should get a bit of a buff, not quite blaster-level obviously, but maybe do 60-70% of what a Blaster's normal T9 does rather than 50% or less.

Standard Sentinel T9s currently do 63.6% of Standard Blaster T9s, and recharge in 62% of the time. Ergo damage over time is identical, on a base level.

Blasters benefit from BU, but then Blaster T9s are massive overkill in most cases whereas Sentinel T9s are just enough to wipe out +4 minions and severely damage +4 lieuts *and* have perfect synergy with Aim's timer.

 

9 hours ago, 33053222 said:

the gap in survivability because of positioning and defense on top of the resistance that blasters can still get actually isn't near as wide as you'd be made to believe. They start at the same HP, have the same def/res caps.

On one hand, you're arguing the ~5-10% difference in numbers between Sents and Scrappers make a Scrapper significantly tougher at handling alphas and such.

On the other hand, you're arguing a Blaster that starts with no survivability at all doesn't have a wide survivability gap because caps are the same.

 

15 hours ago, 33053222 said:

But Fire Blast's inferno is an outlier as well.

Sentinel Fire Blast was rebalanced, and their Inferno is the same as every other Sentinel T9, adding just 12 base damage worth of DoT (in comparison Blaster Inferno gets 159 base damage worth of DoT, a full Sentinel nuke as extra).

 

On 2/25/2020 at 8:35 AM, 33053222 said:

The Tanker's reliable "Jab" T1 -30 res to enemy honestly does more and is 100% reliable vs. Sentinel offensive opportunity which does less -res, isn't even the Tanker's INHERENT mind you, and also has to build a whole METER to use it.

Bruising doesn't exist anymore with the Tanker buffs. When it did, it was -20% res rather than -30%.

 

13 hours ago, oldskool said:

People looking to highly optimize aren't playing sets of anything less than Titan Weapons OR Mace for Scrappers/Brutes/Tankers, Street Justice for Stalkers (or Dual Blades with extreme recharge), Fire Blast on any ranged AT, and so on. 

Key part of this thread. It's no secret there are broken/overpowered options on other ATs. Sentinels are better balanced as a whole. It's a smoother experience trending towards the middle point of performance.

[Sovera]

On 2/25/2020 at 7:35 AM, 33053222 said:

As nice as you make this sound, in reality, it's actually still not as competitive as you'd think. 

Yes, it can potentially do that, I grant you this, but at the same time, the nuke is actually kind of pathetic damage... really... I know it sounds odd but look at the game for what it is. You can deal the same damage on a Scrapper with a psuedopet no crit with LR and have ANOTHER "nuke" in SC. The stalker can do these same things, and the have BETTER ST.
The Scrapper also receives better survivability, also achieves higher numerical values, and quite honestly if any Sentinel can do +4/x8, you can bet a Scrapper in 99% of cases can do the *exact* *same* *thing* and succeed at it waaaaaay better. Hell, Controllers can solo +4/x8. Dominators can actually speed clear somethings faster than you could even imagine. Defenders as well, tough, but they can be made to.

Water by definition is the most AOE of any primary even if it doesn't hit the hardest, but I can tell you my Sentinel is fire/bio/psi, I proc'd out the hold, fire has by default the highest DPAs along with Bio Armor Offensive boosting that, and it still takes me a pathetic amount of time to kill a boss. 

 

In fact, there are a variety of combinations of Scrappers that deal regularly over what these "nukes" do, and they clean up bosses much better than the Sentinel, the 10 enemy cap is super lame. One such example is a TW Scrapper's Arc of Destruction (up 4x as often, very often does more than double what these nukes do). Almost every single Scrapper's PBAOE if it criticals does more damage than the Sentinel nukes. In reality, a Tanker can honestly clear the things that sentinels do in the same amount of time... and attain probably quadruple the survivability. The Tanker's reliable "Jab" T1 -30 res to enemy honestly does more and is 100% reliable vs. Sentinel offensive opportunity which does less -res, isn't even the Tanker's INHERENT mind you, and also has to build a whole METER to use it. Nothing counteracts the fact that the inherent is just terrible and this AT as a whole is just not *competitive.*

As someone who played Sentinels extensively and expected to play a ranged Scrapper I'm very much agreeing with you. The quick nuke is nice and it does clear a nice swathe into minions, but my Scrapper does the same with Follow-up + Spin + Shockwave, no need to wait 25 seconds. The AT is stupidly survivable because it can stay at range and pew pew whatever survived. But does it matter? Only in a vacuum.

 

When I see people advocating how impressive their Sentinel is I kinda grimace a bit because I see myself many months back raving about them until I picked a Scrapper for the first time and went from 4 minutes pylon time to 1:45.

 

Now, people love the AT and love being tanky and ranged and we can't argue with that nor do I even want to. Being tanky and doing solid damage is a bit of a Hunter thing in WoW (my main for several expansions so I know what I'm talking about). The 'easy' tax is paid, but depending on content that tax pays for itself. The no-casting-times Hunter spec will do a bit worse damage to pay for the fact it can cast and move, but in difficult content the fact that they can cast and move pays for itself twice over allowing them to top the meters. At least until everyone knows the mechanics and how to move as minimally as possible.

 

But since CoH doesn't really have difficult content except the 2% there is no point in it. There is an 'easy' tax the AT pays for no particular reason.

 

But I still find it acceptable. Do you want to play something that does not need to chase enemies and can do reasonable damage and be ranged? This is it, and I find it acceptable. I may not be interested, but it's good that it is there for those who are.

 

The AT is good at what it does, and if there is an AT I would suggest for a new player it would be a Sentinel.

[Zeraphia]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

This is unrealistic in any context that isn't an AE roaming farm.

You cannot just handwave it away as "enemies will be in melee eventually" or "I will herd every group around the corner". Time spent herding or waiting is DPS lost compared to jumping in and using a 25' radius right away.

 

Standard Sentinel T9s currently do 63.6% of Standard Blaster T9s, and recharge in 62% of the time. Ergo damage over time is identical, on a base level.

Blasters benefit from BU, but then Blaster T9s are massive overkill in most cases whereas Sentinel T9s are just enough to wipe out +4 minions and severely damage +4 lieuts *and* have perfect synergy with Aim's timer.

 

On one hand, you're arguing the ~5-10% difference in numbers between Sents and Scrappers make a Scrapper significantly tougher at handling alphas and such.

On the other hand, you're arguing a Blaster that starts with no survivability at all doesn't have a wide survivability gap because caps are the same.

 

Sentinel Fire Blast was rebalanced, and their Inferno is the same as every other Sentinel T9, adding just 12 base damage worth of DoT (in comparison Blaster Inferno gets 159 base damage worth of DoT, a full Sentinel nuke as extra).

 

Bruising doesn't exist anymore with the Tanker buffs. When it did, it was -20% res rather than -30%.

 

Key part of this thread. It's no secret there are broken/overpowered options on other ATs. Sentinels are better balanced as a whole. It's a smoother experience trending towards the middle point of performance.

This is a lot better of an argument than I've seen from many people, I must say I applaud you and thank you for taking the time to dissect this. I appreciate helpful comments such as these that either show me something I haven't learned before or genuinely bring new points of discussion. 

 

It can be debatable, but for the most part what you are saying is true, but does the recharge time along with the potential to hit the same amount of targets make up for that fact? Within the 4 times since the Sentinel mini-nuke power recharges could you have hit 10 or more targets? Could you have done more damage with the PBAoE power by the time it recharged? Also there are plenty of situations this can apply to, say, ITF, any melee-based enemy, etc. 

 

You are correct I was looking at Inferno from fire blast and comparing how much damage that does vs. Sentinels and why for some reason even on Psychic Blasters the base of Psychic Wail reaches almost 1,000 while Sentinel lags with 400-500. I knew Inferno did more than other T9's for Blasters just wasn't sure how much. 

 

Are they really "massive overkill" or is it just another AT's way of clearing the minions/leis in seconds? There's so many ways now to just outright "nuke" a mob. Just about any AT can do this if you multiproc Spring Attack from the Leaping pool, won't be up mob to mob, but it will do enough for most to consider it a solid "nuke." 

 

Yes, because the point in the earlier post was that Sentinels absorb alphas better than Scrappers/Brutes when if they're built the same and chosen the same secondary, that just flat out won't be the case. 

 

Because when you both take Hover and both have capped ranged defenses, the only two other types of damage besides range which you're capped at that can hit you are very special typed position damages (hami/dominate (psionic special position typing)) or Targeted AoE. For instance, I have a range capped Blaster (Water/TA) who has only died a grand total of 3 times to either an iTrial AOE, or a group of Seers. Sure you could make a Sentinel to not die to either of those if you chose the correct secondary, but to not die to a few very special circumstances and maybe survive Psionics easier, is that really a wide gap? I personally do not think so but again, that can be an opinion. 

 

I didn't know that was rebalanced or how far the gap between Inferno vs other T9's was. 

 

I also thought Bruising still was in the game for Tankers, but that probably changed with the updates when they went live, ah well. I guess Sentinel does a very moderate debuff which lasts maybe 40% of a hard fight against one hard target, I hardly call that a viable win in base DPS or even helping a party especially when so much -res is being thrown around in most cases anyways. If it was up 100% of a hard target's life, well then I'd be really interested in it and I could 100% see the utility in that nor would I really think that would be "broken" by any means especially when Sentinel ST is what I am really arguing being improved (when you kill a mob with a sentinel, you still have to deal with the bosses that you've barely dented). I think I may have emphasized on the AoE points, but what I am mainly trying to drive is their ST is just lacking horrifically. 

 

Of course. But what seems striking to me is the Sentinel's Overcharge really base value 315 damage with 90 second recharge?! That DOES seem like a huge outlier amongst Sentinels and could be an actually "broken" set that will end up surpassing Blasters in a couple of circumstances. If anyone can confirm that it really does that, please let me know.

[Coyote]

4 hours ago, nihilii said:

Standard Sentinel T9s currently do 63.6% of Standard Blaster T9s, and recharge in 62% of the time. Ergo damage over time is identical, on a base level.

 

And to go back to my point about debuffing and controlling, the Sentinel T9s don't lose debuffing or control effects compared to Blaster T9s, despite recharging a lot faster. So while they put out comparable DPS (less up front, but in a more convenient damage vs recharge package), they also put out a lot more debuffing. You can actually plan a character around starting a fight with an AoE mez or Blackstar's -35% ToHit Debuff. I mean, Defenders open fights with -25% from Fearsome Stare (ENHANCED!!!), while a Dark Blast Sentinel gets a 35% (unenhanced) from its T9. Granted, they can't perma it, but when you're opening with about 500 damage on top of -35% to hit, that's better than Fearsome Stare + Darkest Night (because while the debuffing isn't as much, dead mobs are very strongly debuffed)... and Dark Miasma is one of the stronger defensive debuff sets.

 

[Zeraphia]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

 

And to go back to my point about debuffing and controlling, the Sentinel T9s don't lose debuffing or control effects compared to Blaster T9s, despite recharging a lot faster. So while they put out comparable DPS (less up front, but in a more convenient damage vs recharge package), they also put out a lot more debuffing. You can actually plan a character around starting a fight with an AoE mez or Blackstar's -35% ToHit Debuff. I mean, Defenders open fights with -25% from Fearsome Stare (ENHANCED!!!), while a Dark Blast Sentinel gets a 35% (unenhanced) from its T9. Granted, they can't perma it, but when you're opening with about 500 damage on top of -35% to hit, that's better than Fearsome Stare + Darkest Night (because while the debuffing isn't as much, dead mobs are very strongly debuffed)... and Dark Miasma is one of the stronger defensive debuff sets.

 

In a solo environment maybe, but on a team, not necessarily, 20+ seconds on a recharge for a T9 isn't going to be mob to mob on teams, on efficient ones, maybe 1 out of every 2 mobs, on a hyper-efficient team, maybe 1 out of 3 mobs. Most defenders can guarantee their debuffs/buffs on demand for every single one of those mobs which is a lot different. 

[oldskool]

At this point there is a good bit of hyperbole being tossed around.  Attempting to defend/counterpoint is really just making it a lot worse. 

 

Takeaways:

 

- The Sentinel just doesn't do the kind of damage a specific player would like, and they aren't alone.  That's fine.

- The Sentinel has some perks to it that don't necessarily appeal to everyone beyond the damage equation.  Also fine. 

- The rest begins to tread into cherry picking for the sake of winning.  Can this stop?

 

Signed: A person that actually plays Defenders and finds a good bit of this to be bullshit at this point. 😂

Edited February 26, 2020 by oldskool

[Obus Form]

6 hours ago, Sovera said:

 The 'easy' tax is paid, but depending on content that tax pays for itself. The no-casting-times Hunter spec will do a bit worse damage to pay for the fact it can cast and move, but in difficult content the fact that they can cast and move pays for itself twice over allowing them to top the meters. At least until everyone knows the mechanics and how to move as minimally as possible.

 

Do you want to play something that does not need to chase enemies and can do reasonable damage and be ranged? This is it, and I find it acceptable.

 

The AT is good at what it does, and if there is an AT I would suggest for a new player it would be a Sentinel.

This about sums up how I would suggest and play Sentinels.  Middle ground-jack of everything-newbie friendly-ranged enough-tank enough-fair-but-not-specialized archetype. 

If you're playing CoH for the first time, play sentinel.  If you're looking for specialization, do it via other ATs.  You can min-max every AT including sentinels.  But the specialized ATs min-maxed will outperform min-maxed Sentinels provided you know how to utilize/manage those specializations properly.

[Coyote]

Right. I think we've reached where I thought we were 😂
The AT is fine, but it's not top-tuned for specific purposes. But it's fine for general-purpose builds. If you're looking for an AT that is tuneable for top-level tanking, or debuffing, or control, or (most relevantly) damage, it will not match up to other ATs that are better tuned for those purposes.

If instead you're fine with a generalist build that checks all the boxes (except melee attacks), it's solid.