I Gave It a Shot

[Seed22]

On 2/25/2020 at 1:47 PM, SwitchFade said:

Thanks for your opinion, which is what we are discussing as there is little fact here, and that is perfectly fine. Bare in mind concepts such as performance, meta, competitive, outclassed and better are subjective. Better at what? Competitive at what? Performing how?

 

Sentinels survive much better than brutes in many cases, so... better? I've watched whole teams wipe that I chug on through to their amazement. How do we measure better?

 

I have absorbed alpha that kills brutes and tanks, is that better?

 

I routinely out damage scrapers, is that better?

 

I have zero endurance issues at any level on a sentinel, but many other classes gasp. Where is the marker for better?

 

I watch as blasters faceplant repeatedly from 1-50, but... They're better, yes?

 

My nuke is up for every group, but, wait, it's not better. Why isn't it?

 

I have built in self heal that allows me to be self sufficient, is that worse than a scrapper with no self heal?

 

The list goes on. No, not the list proving how anything is better, the list demonstrating that your perspective is subjective, an opinion. For example, I think corruptors suck, having tried several, and I will not play one because to me, they are terrible. But are the factually? No, I'm sure plenty of things about the class are wonderful.

 

To sum, I disagree with your persective and am unconvinced by your method of comparison; hence, in my opinion you are incorrect. That's the Great thing about perspective, yeah? We can both disagree and be happy.

 

I would HOPE your nuke is up every group. That’s probably how y’all can barely mob up the leftover from my fire/atomic(Sorry that’s a slight bit hyperbolic). Also so are both of my blasters nukes. Again that’s something that should be common place. As far as out damaging scrappers? Yeah I call BS. Taking alphas that kill tanks? Are they level 3?

 

Being proud of your build is wonderful! But straight up lying? Yeah no that’s not something that’s cool. Sentinels need a bit of a niche to fill and a buff, I myself want to make one but not in its current state. They do anemic damage outside of fire and I kinda don’t want every build to be Fire/*. If I want mad fire damage I’ll play my Fire/Atomic. Objectively, sentinels have anemic numbers. Something tells me all of this is from a 50 sent observing some 50s with SOs trying to get their stuff together

Edited February 26, 2020 by Seed22

[Seed22]

9 hours ago, Sovera said:

As someone who played Sentinels extensively and expected to play a ranged Scrapper I'm very much agreeing with you. The quick nuke is nice and it does clear a nice swathe into minions, but my Scrapper does the same with Follow-up + Spin + Shockwave, no need to wait 25 seconds. The AT is stupidly survivable because it can stay at range and pew pew whatever survived. But does it matter? Only in a vacuum.

 

When I see people advocating how impressive their Sentinel is I kinda grimace a bit because I see myself many months back raving about them until I picked a Scrapper for the first time and went from 4 minutes pylon time to 1:45.

 

Now, people love the AT and love being tanky and ranged and we can't argue with that nor do I even want to. Being tanky and doing solid damage is a bit of a Hunter thing in WoW (my main for several expansions so I know what I'm talking about). The 'easy' tax is paid, but depending on content that tax pays for itself. The no-casting-times Hunter spec will do a bit worse damage to pay for the fact it can cast and move, but in difficult content the fact that they can cast and move pays for itself twice over allowing them to top the meters. At least until everyone knows the mechanics and how to move as minimally as possible.

 

But since CoH doesn't really have difficult content except the 2% there is no point in it. There is an 'easy' tax the AT pays for no particular reason.

 

But I still find it acceptable. Do you want to play something that does not need to chase enemies and can do reasonable damage and be ranged? This is it, and I find it acceptable. I may not be interested, but it's good that it is there for those who are.

 

The AT is good at what it does, and if there is an AT I would suggest for a new player it would be a Sentinel.

I agree with all of this! And like I said previously I really want to make one, seeing as I have 3 blasters and a slew of other damaging ATs at 50. But, I just can’t. I think I could do a lot more with other ATs and I’m not a new player to CoH to appreciate the safety net that sents offer. 

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

I would HOPE your nuke is up every group. That’s probably how y’all can barely mob up the leftover from my fire/atomic(Sorry that’s a slight bit hyperbolic). Also so are both of my blasters nukes. Again that’s something that should be common place. As far as out damaging scrappers? Yeah I call BS. Taking alphas that kill tanks? Are they level 3?

 

Being proud of your build is wonderful! But straight up lying? Yeah no that’s not something that’s cool. Sentinels need a bit of a niche to fill and a buff, I myself want to make one but not in its current state. They do anemic damage outside of fire and I kinda don’t want every build to be Fire/*. If I want mad fire damage I’ll play my Fire/Atomic. Objectively, sentinels have anemic numbers. Something tells me all of this is from a 50 sent observing some 50s with SOs trying to get their stuff together

Very nice that you suggest people are liars. How fortunate for me that, not only am I lying, but that you were able to help me out.

 

But I do have a question, do you have proof? I mean, if you're going to blatantly call me a liar, have you witnessed said events?

 

I sure hope you would be ethical enough to have proof BEFORE attacking someone in such a fashion. May I ask you to provide the afore mentioned evidence?

[Underfyre]

On 2/25/2020 at 6:17 AM, oldskool said:

 

- Critical hits.  That MAY be a stretch if the other topics became a reality but Scourge isn't really like critical hits so there isn't a true ranged class with that feature.  Might step too far on Scrapper/Stalkers toes and I don't want to diminish those ATs (of which I play too). 

How about this one. Make the Opportunity ability trigger a X% crit chance for its duration, scrap the 20% resistance and bonus damage. Or scale the bonus damage to basically be a crit.

 

Depending on the damage amount or crit %, it may or may not apply to the rest of the group.

[tjknight]

Comparing Sentinels to Blasters or Scrappers will always be a little off. They are much closer in design to the Epic AT's (SoA & Kheldians).  In that they are survivable AT that does mid-range damage. An AT that has access to shields and self-heals will never, ever be allowed to do blaster level damage. And balance wise that's probably a good idea. 

[Zeraphia]

23 hours ago, Seed22 said:

I would HOPE your nuke is up every group. That’s probably how y’all can barely mob up the leftover from my fire/atomic(Sorry that’s a slight bit hyperbolic). Also so are both of my blasters nukes. Again that’s something that should be common place. As far as out damaging scrappers? Yeah I call BS. Taking alphas that kill tanks? Are they level 3?

 

Being proud of your build is wonderful! But straight up lying? Yeah no that’s not something that’s cool. Sentinels need a bit of a niche to fill and a buff, I myself want to make one but not in its current state. They do anemic damage outside of fire and I kinda don’t want every build to be Fire/*. If I want mad fire damage I’ll play my Fire/Atomic. Objectively, sentinels have anemic numbers. Something tells me all of this is from a 50 sent observing some 50s with SOs trying to get their stuff together

I agree with you. I've demonstrated mathematically how they just do NOT compare to these ATs and that the other poster is obviously comparing completely IO'd builds to others with SO builds or really poorly built toons based on strictly the inherent base defense/resistance/HP they're given. 

 

His point about going mob to mob being the "clean up crew" for the actual Blaster nukes isn't a false statement and then seeing the damage you barely do to the mobs after the actual blaster comes by is... sad... To say the least, no one on the team is impressed. 

20 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Very nice that you suggest people are liars. How fortunate for me that, not only am I lying, but that you were able to help me out.

 

But I do have a question, do you have proof? I mean, if you're going to blatantly call me a liar, have you witnessed said events?

 

I sure hope you would be ethical enough to have proof BEFORE attacking someone in such a fashion. May I ask you to provide the afore mentioned evidence?

The way the poster above phrased it was harsh, I agree I do not condone that, but I do not agree with his points. The numbers just flat out do not agree with him at a base level, sure if there is heavy -res debuffing or +def/res from defenders there is a difference, but for the "bare bones," he's not wrong about the nukes being somewhat pathetic in comparison to the Blaster and the AT as a whole needing a damage buff. 

15 hours ago, tjknight said:

Comparing Sentinels to Blasters or Scrappers will always be a little off. They are much closer in design to the Epic AT's (SoA & Kheldians).  In that they are survivable AT that does mid-range damage. An AT that has access to shields and self-heals will never, ever be allowed to do blaster level damage. And balance wise that's probably a good idea. 

"an AT that has access to shields and self-heals will never, ever be allowed to do blaster level damage," Scrappers exist and already have these advantages, and it is right to compare them because they both have an attack-based primary and a defense-based secondary and they have the closest survivabilities (I would say Stalkers but Stalkers are a lot different in how they survive). Blasters deal ranged damage, they don't get a secondary to help them take damage, but they still get resistance/defense from the epic/patron pool and tough (you can get ranged defense and capped S/L res, especially once this new Bombardment IO comes in granting you an easy 3.75% range defense and 2.25% S/L AND 6.25% recharge...) Is it as good as the entire secondary the Sentinel gets? Obviously not but honestly not that far of a gap all things considered. At the end of the day, these two BOTH get access to a form of defense. I do not think giving them both competitive decent damage numbers is "outlandish" or "unbalanced" because the blasters an armor set and tough/weave and these new IO's that significantly help them. 

 

Have you ever considered that if a Blaster trades such "extreme" levels of survivability that maybe they're just a generally underpowered AT, compared to the Scrapper which does get the better numbers in both damage and defense? Yes, they get a nuke, but are their nukes really that impressive if they base a base cooldown of over 120 seconds (for most sets) and still don't dent a boss half health or more most the time? Their ST is shown to not be as competitive as Scrapper and Stalker most of the time now anyways. Sincerely, buffing up Blaster damage would not be a bad idea. 

 

Also, comparing it to the VEATs EATs, is a not a great comparison for a multitude of reasons: 

1. Warshades get a Blaster-level or just slightly under Blaster-level actual nuke. They get a permanent double Mire (more than Gaussian's + Aim), they get also capped (85% - 10% over the base for Sentinels along and only 5% under the Tanker cap) with perma-eclipse. How does an AT with an almost permanent 200% damage buff, higher base damages, an actual nuke, and an 85% to every single resistance in any way shape or form compare even closely to the Sentinels (edit: I see how this may have came across, I was meaning to bring up points to demonstrate the divide, I wasn't meaning to personally attack you, I am truly sorry if it has come off this way, I was trying to be "funny" and I guess real life humor versus online text is different...)? Their ST is leaps and bounds better because of the way they can create minions. This is another example of an AT that has "blaster-level damage" and has "shields and self-heals." I'm already seeing the "well WS require bodies," if you're given the chance, wouldn't trade all those perks to relying on bodies? Speaking of not relying on bodies... There is a variation that doesn't rely on bodies whatsoever!

2. PB's are almost the same deal as the Warshades, they just don't have the maxed out resistance to Psionics but everything else is maxed and they get extremely high HP with one of their click powers and they also receive the same 85% cap. They get an actual nuke. They don't get the exact same Soul extraction that a WS does, but the Photon Seekers are beefy to say the least, they also don't get quite the same damage % double mire madness that WS do, but they get a permanently reliable BU power that doesn't rely on any enemies whatsoever.

3. Comparing a Crabbermind to a Sentinel, is not a fair comparison due to the fact at that point, they're basically a specialized version of the "jack-of-all-trades" the Sentinel wishes it could be.

- Bane? Eh, I'm not too familiar with this one but I'm going to hazard to say that most won't pick the Bane playstyle over how good the Crab is unless you endearingly hate the backpack or really want a watered-down Stalker.

4. Night Widow does far higher ST, does have to be in melee, but gains SR-level (minus the DDR which I will say is a big disadvantage), can provide MUCH BETTER team benefits, I'm talking over 20% defense to your team, and very high +dmg off of its toggles + leadership... It may not get the "nuke" but it gets just about everything else.
- Fortunata actually completely outclasses the AT on almost every level, it gets in addition to much better team benefits, an actual blaster-level nuke in Psychic Wail (250 Blaster 222 Fort), gets controls which the Sentinel can only access weakened version through the Epic pools, and they also gets the Widow attacks to make them deal more damage than what the Sentinel gets, and they follow up, with enough recharge, to give them more than the Aim does. 

(Edited post because I was up really late and I do not think this was the greatest way to phrase my points on this, and I really don't want people to feel attacked that was never my intention, I just wanted to bring up some very glaring differences I wished to highlight)

Edited February 27, 2020 by 33053222

[SwitchFade]

9 hours ago, 33053222 said:

+1,000,000 to you sir. I've demonstrated mathematically how they just do NOT compare to these ATs and that the other poster is obviously comparing completely IO'd builds to others with SO builds or really poorly built toons based on strictly the inherent base defense/resistance/HP they're given. 

 

His point about going mob to mob being the "clean up crew" for the actual Blaster nukes isn't a false statement and then seeing the damage you barely do to the mobs after the actual blaster comes by is... sad... To say the least, no one on the team is impressed. 

The way the poster above phrased it was harsh, I agree, but he's not wrong. The numbers just flat out do not agree with him at a base level, sure if there is heavy -res debuffing or +def/res from defenders there is a difference, but for the "bare bones," he's not wrong about the nukes being somewhat pathetic in comparison to the Blaster and the AT as a whole needing a damage buff. 

Are you really going to sit here and try to say that "an AT that has access to shields and self-heals will never, ever be allowed to do blaster level damage," I'm sorry for the sarcasm, but really? Scrappers DO exist, and it is RIGHT to compare them because they both have an attack-based primary and a defense-based secondary and they have the closest survivabilities (I would say Stalkers but Stalkers are a lot different in how they survive). Blasters deal RANGED damage, they don't get a secondary to help them take damage, but they still get resistance/defense from the epic/patron pool and tough (IMO, not hard to get ranged defense AND capped S/L res, especially once this new Bombardment IO comes in granting you an easy 3.75% range defense and 2.25% S/L AND 6.25% recharge...) Is it as good as the entire secondary the Sentinel gets? Obviously not but honestly not that far of a gap all things considered. At the end of the day, these two BOTH get access to a form of defense. I do not think giving them both competitive DECENT damage numbers is "outlandish" or "unbalanced" because the blasters an armor set and tough/weave and these new IO's that significantly help them. 

 

Have you ever considered that if a Blaster trades such "extreme" levels of survivability that maybe they're just a generally underpowered AT, compared to the Scrapper which does get the better numbers in both damage and defense? Yes, they get a nuke, but are their nukes really that impressive if they base a base of over 120+ (for most sets) and still don't dent a boss half health or more most the time? Their ST is a flat loss to Scrapper and Stalker most of the time now anyways. Sincerely, buffing up Blaster damage would not be a bad idea. 

 

Also, comparing it to the VEATs EATs, is a horrific comparison for a multitude of reasons: 

1. Warshades get a Blaster-level or just slightly under Blaster-level ACTUAL nuke. They get a PERMANENT double Mire (more than Gaussian's + Aim), they get also capped (85% - 10% over the base for Sentinels along and only 5% under the Tanker cap) with perma-eclipse. How the HELL does an AT with an almost permanent 200% damage buff, higher base damages, an actual nuke, and an 85% to every single resistance in any way shape or form compare even closely to the Sentinels? I'm not even going to mention the fact their ST is leaps and bounds better because of the way they can create minions. This is another example of an AT that has "blaster-level damage" and has "shields and self-heals." I'm already seeing the "well WS require bodies," tell me if you're not given the chance you wouldn't trade all those perks over relying on bodies? Speaking of relying on bodies... Let's get into the variation that doesn't rely on bodies whatsoever!

2. PB's are almost the same deal as the Warshades, they just don't have the maxed out resistance to Psionics but everything else is maxed and they get extremely high HP with one of their click powers and they also receive the same 85% cap. They get an actual nuke. They don't get the exact same Soul extraction that a WS does, but the Photon Seekers are beefy to say the least, they also don't get quite the same damage % double mire madness that WS do, but they get a permanently reliable BU power that doesn't rely on any enemies whatsoever.

3. I'm not even going to compare a Crabbermind to a Sentinel, it's just not even a fair comparison at that point, they're basically a specialized version of the "jack-of-all-trades" the Sentinel wishes it could be.

- Bane? Eh, I'm not too familiar with this one but I'm going to hazard to say that most won't pick the Bane playstyle over how good the Crab is unless you endearingly hate the backpack or really want a watered-down Stalker.

4. Night Widow does far higher ST, does have to be in melee, but gains SR-level (minus the DDR which I will say is a big disadvantage), can provide MUCH BETTER team benefits, I'm talking over 20% defense to your team, and very high +dmg off of its toggles + leadership... It may not get the "nuke" but it gets just about everything else.
- Fortunata actually completely outclasses the AT on almost every level, it gets in addition to much better team benefits, an actual blaster-level nuke in Psychic Wail (250 Blaster 222 Fort), gets CONTROLS which the Sentinel can only access weakened version through the Epic pools, and they also gets the Widow attacks to make them deal more damage than what the Sentinel gets, AND they follow up, with enough recharge, to give them more than the Aim does. 

Hmm. Let's sum, shall we?

 

You started a thread titled "I gave it a shot," wherein you discussed in a lengthy diatribe the nuance of exactly why you feel that sentinels are not good, proceeded to use skewed data to draw questionable conclusions and then proclaimed that those conclusions are fact.

 

When any dissenting opinion was posed, you vociferously denounced it as erroneous, disregarding that some of those disentors attempted to understand you and explain their opinions.

 

When your flawed data was analyzed and you were informed you were in err, you acknowledged it off hand and then initiated a new, similarly flawed, line of argumentation.

 

When presented again with any facts that disprove your claim, dissent or disagreement you then insisted that not only were those that do not agree with you wrong, you belittled them with sarcasm, by your own account.

 

Finally, when multiple people voiced further evidence and reasoning that contradicted you, you highlighted, promoted and sang the praises of a poster who stooped to using personal attacks and hyperbole, throwing your lot in with that class of character. Not only that, you then misquoted the very person they were attacking, in what seems to be an attempt to find someone who agrees with you.

 

Well then. We have to realize that it is evident you may not be inclined to discussion, reasoning or understanding, but merely convinced of your belief and resolved in your determination to convince anyone who gainsays said belief.

 

Cogent arguments are exactly that, ideology is unassailable and reason demands understanding. I do hope in the future you're able to be a positive force for change, as no one disagrees that there was a case for change, but the course you tacked into that particular wind was foolhardy, at best.

 

I digress.

[Zeraphia]

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Hmm. Let's sum, shall we?

 

You started a thread titled "I gave it a shot," wherein you discussed in a lengthy diatribe the nuance of exactly why you feel that sentinels are not good, proceeded to use skewed data to draw questionable conclusions and then proclaimed that those conclusions are fact.

 

When any dissenting opinion was posed, you vociferously denounced it as erroneous, disregarding that some of those disentors attempted to understand you and explain their opinions.

 

When your flawed data was analyzed and you were informed you were in err, you acknowledged it off hand and then initiated a new, similarly flawed, line of argumentation.

 

When presented again with any facts that disprove your claim, dissent or disagreement you then insisted that not only were those that do not agree with you wrong, you belittled them with sarcasm, by your own account.

 

Finally, when multiple people voiced further evidence and reasoning that contradicted you, you highlighted, promoted and sang the praises of a poster who stooped to using personal attacks and hyperbole, throwing your lot in with that class of character. Not only that, you then misquoted the very person they were attacking, in what seems to be an attempt to find someone who agrees with you.

 

Well then. We have to realize that it is evident you may not be inclined to discussion, reasoning or understanding, but merely convinced of your belief and resolved in your determination to convince anyone who gainsays said belief.

 

Cogent arguments are exactly that, ideology is unassailable and reason demands understanding. I do hope in the future you're able to be a positive force for change, as no one disagrees that there was a case for change, but the course you tacked into that particular wind was foolhardy, at best.

 

I digress.

I've revised my earlier post based on the feedback you have given and overlooking it now that I am in a better state. I think that I was tired and unfortunately made an error in the way I was phrasing my points and arguments. I do not condone his behavior. I said in my post that I felt it was harsh. I don't disagree with the basis of his argument that the AT is not as glorious as you are making it seem and that the values do not align as I have pointed out before. I realized how that may have seemed, and I am truly sorry if you felt this way. 

 

My intentions were met with trying to instigate a basis of change or learn new things about the Sentinel to make it "shine" more than I already tried to make it. My general thoughts are as follows for the Sentinel based on the competitiveness of this AT vs others and how to make it shine:

- Needs a better inherent mechanic, this could be like Fury for the Sentinel for a certain amount of time or a "click" like domination that gets to a certain +damage% and stops, I think within reason and keeping it scaled properly this would make for a much better mechanic than the current iteration. Or possibly (although I see this as a more "broken" option) implement a critical system within the "opportunities" where you gain a set amount of critical chance for the "Offensive Opportunity" duration, it wouldn't be up every single mob, it won't "outclass" a blaster, and it won't "outclass" a Scrapper, but I think it would at least leave it feeling competitive.

-Honestly, if people don't want the nukes changed at all or think they're fine, I understand, but please here me out, if nothing else, please look into the ST, that is genuinely my biggest issue with the Sentinel. I felt like every post I've made surrounded the nuke but truly it is the single-target that has the deepest issues, the repel effect is overall disliked, the DPA times to damage doesn't compare well with other multiple ATs. I understand the damage tax that Sentinels paid for being both Ranged and Defensive, but I do not feel as if they've paid the tax of dealing Tanker-level ST damage. I get why they removed the Sniper powers but truly would it be that broken if they got them? Corruptors/Defenders have them with a lower damage scale, Dominators as well, all of these ATs do not suffer the same penalties Sentinel does. 

- The target caps/range could be raised, moreso in favor of the target caps. The target caps would make it more competitive than the latter in comparison to Scrapper/Stalker PBAoEs. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by 33053222

[oldskool]

4 hours ago, 33053222 said:

-Honestly, if people don't want the nukes changed at all or think they're fine, I understand, but please here me out, if nothing else, please look into the ST, that is genuinely my biggest issue with the Sentinel. I felt like every post I've made surrounded the nuke but truly it is the single-target that has the deepest issues, the repel effect is overall disliked, the DPA times to damage doesn't compare well with other multiple ATs. I understand the damage tax that Sentinels paid for being both Ranged and Defensive, but I do not feel as if they've paid the tax of dealing Tanker-level ST damage. I get why they removed the Sniper powers but truly would it be that broken if they got them? Corruptors/Defenders have them with a lower damage scale, Dominators as well, all of these ATs do not suffer the same penalties Sentinel does.

What kind of Tanker are we talking here?

 

Also, before I go any further I want to state the following in bold text: I'm on board with buffs for the Sentinel.  Please don't take the things I'm about to state as if I'm fanboying and can't see issues.  I feel as if I have beaten this horse to death, but it also irks me to see context tossed to the wind in favor of carefree discussion.  I do commend an open discussion about the AT and how to improve it.  I also think that can be done without getting into hyperbole.  I want to support your ideas, but just set aside some of the loaded rhetoric.

You tried Fire Blast and felt that it didn't live up to whatever sense of competitiveness suits you.  I'm 100% OK with that, and I get it.  However, I do think you are missing a bit of the forest for the trees with the Sentinel.  This is likely why you see the push back that you do, and probably why it all seems frustrating. 

1) Fire Blast wasn't changed nearly as much as some of the other sets.  If you're going to compare Fire Blast's ST with Blaster/Corruptor/Defender you're not going to see a whole lot of change.  The snipe attack is different, and Inferno is different.  That's about it.  The basic attack chain isn't too far off conceptually from any of the other ranged attack ATs.  This isn't true for all Sentinel primaries.  I'm not pulling rabbits out of my ass when I say some Sentinel sets have better ST than their counterparts in other ATs.  Electrical Blast is one.  Psychic Blast is another.  There are others.  Hell, most of them.  Any of the previous ranged sets that had a CC power were converted to a high damage attack.  Some of these being the best attack in the entire set (e.g., Sonic Blast's version of Screech).  These changes fundamentally alter how several of these sets play.  So some (some criticism is fair) of the commentary is really disingenuous, and forgive me here, and flat out ignorant of how the AT functions.  I think compared to the core concept of other ranged sets, what I call the cousin sets, that the Sentinel's ST isn't that bad.  Hell, its a strength of the AT from a view of complete ranged gameplay.  To me some of your complaints are like we're playing two completely different games.  

2) You talk about powers in apples to apples comparisons and also in a vacuum.  If you want to compare the attack chain of just a ranged set from a Blaster and Sentinel on base numbers alone you're going to miss the point there too.  How many Blaster builds bother with their offense in the same manner as a Sentinel?  I'm looking things like Incarnates where Sentinels have more flexibility and freedom to run Musculature Core than Blasters running Agility Core.  I'm looking a Assault Radial vs Clarion, and so on.  I'm looking at how easy it is for some builds with defense heavy secondaries to run damage procs in their primary.  That's a reality of the game.  Now look, I'm not an idiot and I understand full well that a Blaster can run damage procs.  If a Blaster did that, then yes their damage potential will sky rocket.  Same goes for a Blaster pushing Musculature.  Just for disclosure... I've built a Blaster that does just that.  So in the realm of hyper specialization into the Blaster's role of damage it will out perform the Sentinel, hands down.  However, Sentinels can have an easier time leveraging that damage in their optimization options which in real game play make things far more blurry.  

 

3) In point #2 I'm in no way saying that an optimized Sentinel is always better than an optimized Blaster.  More likely this... Certain kinds of optimization work out on Sentinels far better than I think you're giving it credit.  I seriously doubt that level of expenditure in your time and influence is of any value to you, but it exists.  You're not wrong that a Blaster can do much of what a Sentinel can and do it better.  What the Sentinel does better than the Blaster though is allow for a far easier ride to 50 and even in some cases of exemplaring.  In some cases a Sentinel can tread pretty close on Blaster ST but a Blaster will always have the upper hand on AoE.  Hell, Defiance alone pushes Blaster ST once they get rolling.  The option of having both Aim + Build-Up also helps.  Though build vs build, there can be times that it takes Defiance + Build-Up in order for that Blaster to really out class some Sentinel builds. 

4) Comparing melee vs range is like comparing apples to Saturn.  These things are so grossly disparate and have been for so long that there isn't really a contest in discussing them.  You did hit a nail on the head about that a few times, but its worth calling out again. 

 

5) Not all Defenders play equally.  Seriously.  Last I checked people still like playing Empathy.  I've grouped a few times with full support Defenders.  Sentinels have the Dominator's damage scalar.  There isn't anyway that Sentinels do less damage than your average Defender player.  Hell, MANY Corruptor builds too.  For Defenders in particular you have to really go out of your way to push damage procs AND run one of the top 5 primaries for debuffing/buffing (self).  Same too goes for Corruptors.  While we're at it, same to goes for Controllers.  No joke there are Controller builds capable of 1-2 minute Pylon times.  That's not normal either. 

6) So back to the Tanker.  What kind are we talking here?  One where the player goes out of their way to make a Tanker-Scrapper TankMage to post awesome times on the Pylon thread?  For every one of those there are multiple more Tankers that specialize on taking damage without a real worry about dishing it out.  I guess you could say those players are "unoptimized", but I mentioned before that the player base that pushes hardcore is still pretty small.  I couldn't care less that my 3 tankers are capable of making one of my Stalker's damage look embarrassing*.  I know how I designed those characters and I 100% completely fault the IO system for their ability to do it too. 

 

*Not saying my Tankers out damage my Stalkers, but more a commentary that the Tanker changes have given them a surprising amount of damage.  Two of my Tankers are proc abusers so the base damage increase just pushed them easily into the 300 DPS realm which to me is just nuts.  

 

7) I've got a Sentinel in my roster right now for each primary except for Radiation Blast and Energy Blast.  Those two sets are ones I'm not ready to go into because I've played them a lot in the past and they weren't really my favorites (like most of the Darkness sets).  So over the course of playing 15+ Sentinels, both in live and test purposes, I've gotten pretty used to Opportunity.  I think Opportunity is rather clunky for what it is, but at the same time I think people have a tendency to just dismiss it like it doesn't do anything.  Sentinels always apply a -5% debuff.  Then on top of that they can get another -20% resistance from their inherent while also getting some bonus damage.  Opportunity lasts 15 seconds.  I've gotten in the habit of building my Sentinels to try to get Opportunity active in just over 13 seconds.  Some primaries can actually use the ATO for Opportunity to reduce that gap even further.  Some dramatically so (like Water Blast).  It certainly isn't the greatest inherent, but it also does more than it gets credit for.  

As someone pointed out before, the Sentinel is a moderate damage dealer in pretty much every arena it exists in.  It just doesn't compete right at the same scale as other specialists ...when built for specialization.  Do you think that most players break 300 DPS?  In playing this game, I seriously don't. 

From the way you have responded, and the way a few others too, I can see why you may not believe me if I'd say I have impressed people playing my Dual Pistols Sentinel.  I really don't need your belief, because I've actually experienced it.  You can take my experience however you like. 

Phew... That said, you have some nice ideas to address some of the gaps. Hopefully the class gets some love because I've seen a few other threads in the same realm of "tried, don't care for it because too little damage".  As I've said before, if you have to bend over backwards to make the Sentinel work (and that's pretty much what my builds look like) then something is off.  Still, Sentinels aren't always half the damage of all Scrappers.  Its a bit much. 😉 

 

Final note.  Some of the recent changes really make Sentinels look a lot worse than they probably did around May 2019.  We've seen a spike in power for Tankers.  We've seen a much smoother version of instant snipe.  We've some tweaks here and there.  The power creep will just make it worse.

Edited February 28, 2020 by oldskool

[DarknessEternal]

On 2/23/2020 at 1:46 PM, 33053222 said:

The problem is that this AT is just not *competitive* it's just not doing enough damage to compensate for the survival and the archetype isn't that known for its opportunity strikes, so I feel its rather wasted potential. I feel like for the same effect it gives, you could roll a much sturdier tanker or a much more damaging scrapper, or a defender/corruptor and it would do better. The sentinel "role" on a team feels very... "off" like there's no strict role it fills, no one really expects anything in particular of you other than to not die so often.

Yes, Sentinels are garbage.

[StrykerGaming]

Currently, I am running my Electric Blast/WP Sentinel at lvl 42 now. I'm amazed at what she can do against the likes of Fake Nemesis or Crey's "Paragon wannabe heroes Defenders." Drain all their endurance, keep them sucking win and burn them down before either of them can activate their "Oh Crap" invulnerability power in less than two full rotations. Mobs? Like cutting down weeds with a weed-wacker! However, the alpha strike capability is lackluster compared to Blasters and Corrupters IMHO.

 

I believe Thunderous Blast could be buffed to do a bit more damage than its doing since it is this set's major attack. And maybe tweak the endurance usage a bit on EB that either lower end usage or buff the end absorbing abilities.

 

However, Sentinel is my preferred AT choice over the Blaster or Corrupter. The latter, maybe not so much for the Corrupter, aren't very good at soloing. At least not in the lower levels up to the mid-twenties. I've started a Fire/Fire Sentinel...wow...this one is going to be interesting at least! 😎

[oldskool]

19 minutes ago, StrykerGaming said:

I believe Thunderous Blast could be buffed

I'm really digging Sentinel Electric Blast, paired with Energy Aura, and Thunderous Blast could use an animation pass... for all ATs.  

[Without_Pause]

22 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

But I do have a question, do you have proof? I mean, if you're going to blatantly call me a liar, have you witnessed said events?

To be fair, your proof is essentially various in game situations with no real proof of the characters being on equal standing, ie player ability, situational awareness, nor their builds. You certainly imply you used a Water/sr sent who can play at range and somehow stayed alive versus brutes knee deep in the thick of things. Gee, possible capped defense, a heal, and playing at range. I don't even give out cookies for that. I took an En/en blaster to 41 on nothing but common IOs without a death. I guess to me blasters are rather sturdy. Can't you see my proof? 😉 In terms of proof, I prefer actual data like AT damage multiplier, max HP, regen, resistance caps, etc. FYI, I feel like sents are a bit boring but a friend of mine loved his. Now, if they were a bit blast with control. Mmm.

[drbuzzard]

3 hours ago, oldskool said:

2) You talk about powers in apples to apples comparisons and also in a vacuum.  If you want to compare the attack chain of just a ranged set from a Blaster and Sentinel on base numbers alone you're going to miss the point there too.  How many Blaster builds can build their offense in the same manner as a Sentinel?  I'm looking things like Incarnates where Sentinels have more flexibility and freedom to run Musculature Core than Blasters running Agility Core.  I'm looking a Assault Radial vs Clarion, and so on.  I'm looking at how easy it is for some builds with defense heavy secondaries to run damage procs in their primary.  That's a reality of the game.  Now look, I'm not an idiot and I understand full well that a Blaster can run damage procs.  If a Blaster did that, then yes their damage potential will sky rocket.  Same goes for a Blaster pushing Musculature.  Just for disclosure... I've built a Blaster that does just that.  So in the realm of hyper specialization into the Blaster's role of damage it will out perform the Sentinel, hands down.  However, Sentinels can have an easier time leveraging that damage in their optimization options which in real game play make things far more blurry. 

 

 

What this really comes down to is the notion of opportunity cost. Sentinels, having a defensive secondary that includes status protection are inherently granted more flexibility in total builds if you want a durable ranged attacking character. Blasters have a lot of hoops to jump through if they want to be sturdy. Yes, it is certainly possible to build a damage optimized blaster (I have 2, as I have tons of sentinels, I have little desire to try to make one of those glass armored blasters that everyone brags about), but you rarely hear of those. It's always the 'I can tank an ITF' or whatnot. One pays a price to be able to do that, be it in recharge, damage, or whatever (and always in influence). My blasters are not terribly sturdy at all, but their damage is basically sick. On the other hand my sentinels mostly are damned durable, and I can run off and do stupid solo tricks in TFs and get away with it when my blasters would be dirt napping (and honesty for all the hyperbole, so would most of the glass armored blasters).

 

Oh, and before someone says I don't think sentinels need a damage boost, please, just go away. They could use more damage. Right now on a team, they are clearly the suboptimal choice for a slot if you have a team which sticks together. This changes if they have to run off and work independently like on speed runs.

Edited February 28, 2020 by drbuzzard

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, drbuzzard said:

What this really comes down to is the notion of opportunity cost.

Totally agree here.  I do feel Sentinels have a very high opportunity cost that is disproportionate with their end effect.  I wouldn't be surprised if that's where the OP is ultimately going here.  I know I expressed a giant wall of text to get there, but piling on hyperbole gets to me.  Ultimately, I'm rather torn.  I get the complaints, I get the divide in opportunity cost, but at the same time I don't think the AT is in such dire straights as it often said to be.  😕 

 

Then on the other hand... just how much DPS do you need*?

*Answer = all of it, obviously

1 hour ago, drbuzzard said:

Yes, it is certainly possible to build a damage optimized blaster (I have 2, as I have tons of sentinels, I have little desire to try to make one of those glass armored blasters that everyone brags about), but you rarely hear of those. It's always the 'I can tank an ITF' or whatnot. One pays a price to be able to do that, be it in recharge, damage, or whatever (and always in influence).

Again, also agreed.  Blasters can get away with chasing less damage in their overall build because of things like a higher base scalar, Defiance, and the ability to juggle Build-Up and Aim.  Sentinel builds are the complete opposite, most of the time, and look for ways to close the damage divide.  Sentinels don't ever completely close it, and I don't think I was suggesting they do, but the mere pursuit of it does have a noticeable impact in real play.  

I've never cared for comparisons to Scrappers directly (or Blasters for that matter) and that's mostly due to just how lopsided melee vs range really is.  

I'm probably a player that is a polar opposite of many.  I originally started CoH in 2004 looking for a melee DPS'er.  Yet my love of the underdog got me into a Dark/Dark Scrapper back when you could only run 1 toggle at a time but Hasten six slotted with nothing but recharge was a thing.  In CoV I did a 180 mostly playing a Corruptor, then Dominator and Mastermind.  I jumped on the SoA and SS/WP too.  Right before shutdown I found out just how much I loved the Controller.  

 

Homecoming pops back, I totally think I'm going to play melee again... nope.  The Sentinel draws me.  Next thing I know my first few alts are all Controllers and a couple Defenders.  I mean I've had the same Stalkers in my roster for a year, and I love them to death, but I just don't spend nearly as much time on pure DPS melee anymore.  I do love me some Tankers too.  

Times change ya.  So I guess my entire perspective on what's acceptable DPS is due to this big roller coaster of various ATs.  The only two ATs I haven't spun back up are the Dominator and Corruptor (Correction, I retired one pretty quick but it was a fun ride. It's a Defender now.) which is ironic given their place in my CoV journey. 

 

At one point I did have over 50+ characters.  I ended up purging all but 20 and now I've added back 7.  I'm probably going to hold at 27 for most of this year. So I've forgotten ones that I re-rolled!! LOL

Edited February 28, 2020 by oldskool

[Zeraphia]

4 hours ago, oldskool said:

What kind of Tanker are we talking here?

 

Also, before I go any further I want to state the following in bold text: I'm on board with buffs for the Sentinel.  Please don't take the things I'm about to state as if I'm fanboying and can't see issues.  I feel as if I have beaten this horse to death, but it also irks me to see context tossed to the wind in favor of carefree discussion. 

You tried Fire Blast and felt that it didn't live up to whatever sense of competitiveness suits you.  I'm 100% OK with that, and I get it.  However, I do think you are missing a bit of the forest for the trees with the Sentinel.  This is likely why you see the push back that you do, and probably why it all seems frustrating. 

1) Fire Blast wasn't changed nearly as much as some of the other sets.  If you're going to compare Fire Blast's ST with Blaster/Corruptor/Defender you're not going to see a whole lot of change.  The snipe attack is different, and Inferno is different.  That's about it.  The basic attack chain isn't too far off conceptually from any of the other ranged attack ATs.  This isn't true for all Sentinel primaries.  I'm not pulling rabbits out of my ass when I say some Sentinel sets have better ST than their counterparts in other ATs.  Electrical Blast is one.  Psychic Blast is another.  There are others.  Hell, most of them.  Any of the previous ranged sets that had a CC power were converted to a high damage attack.  Some of these being the best attack in the entire set (e.g., Sonic Blast's version of Screech).  These changes fundamentally alter how several of these sets play.  So it's really disingenuous, and forgive me here, and flat out ignorant of how the AT functions. 

2) You talk about powers in apples to apples comparisons and also in a vacuum.  If you want to compare the attack chain of just a ranged set from a Blaster and Sentinel on base numbers alone you're going to miss the point there too.  How many Blaster builds can build their offense in the same manner as a Sentinel?  I'm looking things like Incarnates where Sentinels have more flexibility and freedom to run Musculature Core than Blasters running Agility Core.  I'm looking a Assault Radial vs Clarion, and so on.  I'm looking at how easy it is for some builds with defense heavy secondaries to run damage procs in their primary.  That's a reality of the game.  Now look, I'm not an idiot and I understand full well that a Blaster can run damage procs.  If a Blaster did that, then yes their damage potential will sky rocket.  Same goes for a Blaster pushing Musculature.  Just for disclosure... I've built a Blaster that does just that.  So in the realm of hyper specialization into the Blaster's role of damage it will out perform the Sentinel, hands down.  However, Sentinels can have an easier time leveraging that damage in their optimization options which in real game play make things far more blurry. 

 

3) In point #2 I'm in no way saying that an optimized Sentinel is always better than an optimized Blaster.  More likely this... Certain kinds of optimization work out on Sentinels far better than I think you're giving it credit.  I seriously doubt that level of expenditure in your time and influence is of any value to you, but it exists.  You're not wrong that a Blaster can do much of what a Sentinel can and do it better.  What the Sentinel does better than the Blaster though is allow for a far easier ride to 50 and even in some cases of exemplaring.  In some cases a Sentinel can tread pretty close on Blaster ST but a Blaster will always have the upper hand on AoE.  Hell, Defiance alone pushes Blaster ST once they get rolling.  The option of having both Aim + Build-Up also helps.  Though build vs build, there can be times that it takes Defiance + Build-Up in order for that Blaster to really out class some Sentinel builds. 

4) Comparing melee vs range is like comparing apples to Saturn.  These things are so grossly disparate and have been for so long that there isn't really a contest in discussing them.  You did hit a nail on the head about that a few times, but its worth calling out again. 

 

5) Not all Defenders play equally.  Seriously.  Last I checked people still like playing Empathy.  I've grouped a few times with full support Defenders.  Sentinels have the Dominator's damage scalar.  There isn't anyway that Sentinels do less damage than your average Defender player.  Hell, MANY Corruptor builds too.  For Defenders in particular you have to really go out of your way to push damage procs AND run one of the top 5 primaries for debuffing/buffing (self).  Same too goes for Corruptors.  While we're at it, same to goes for Controllers.  No joke there are Controller builds capable of 1-2 minute Pylon times.  That's not normal either. 

6) So back to the Tanker.  What kind are we talking here?  One where the player goes out of their way to make a Tanker-Scrapper TankMage to post awesome times on the Pylon thread?  For every one of those there are multiple more Tankers that specialize on taking damage without a real worry about dishing it out.  I guess you could say those players are "unoptimized", but I mentioned before that the player base that pushes hardcore is still pretty small.  I couldn't care less that my 3 tankers are capable of making one of my Stalker's damage look embarrassing*.  I know how I designed those characters and I 100% completely fault the IO system for their ability to do it too. 

 

*Not saying my Tankers out damage my Stalkers, but more a commentary that the Tanker changes have given them a surprising amount of damage.  Two of my Tankers are proc abusers so the base damage increase just pushed them easily into the 300 DPS realm which to me is just nuts.  

 

7) I've got a Sentinel in my roster right now for each primary except for Radiation Blast and Energy Blast.  Those two sets are ones I'm not ready to go into because I've played them a lot in the past and they weren't really my favorites (like most of the Darkness sets).  So over the course of playing 15+ Sentinels, both in live and test purposes, I've gotten pretty used to Opportunity.  I think Opportunity is rather clunky for what it is, but at the same time I think people have a tendency to just dismiss it like it doesn't do anything.  Sentinels always apply a -5% debuff.  Then on top of that they can get another -20% resistance from their inherent while also getting some bonus damage.  Opportunity lasts 15 seconds.  I've gotten in the habit of building my Sentinels to try to get Opportunity active in just over 13 seconds.  Some primaries can actually use the ATO for Opportunity to reduce that gap even further.  Some dramatically so (like Water Blast).  It certainly isn't the greatest inherent, but it also does more than it gets credit for.  

As someone pointed out before, the Sentinel is a moderate damage dealer in pretty much every arena it exists in.  It just doesn't compete right at the same scale as other specialists ...when built for specialization.  Do you think that most players break 300 DPS?  In playing this game, I seriously don't. 

From the way you have responded, and the way a few others too, I can see why you may not believe me if I'd say I have impressed people playing my Dual Pistols Sentinel.  I really don't need your belief, because I've actually experienced it.  You can take my experience however you like. 

Phew... That said, you have some nice ideas to address some of the gaps. Hopefully the class gets some love because I've seen a few other threads in the same realm of "tried, don't care for it because too little damage".  As I've said before, if you have to bend over backwards to make the Sentinel work (and that's pretty much what my builds look like) then something is off.  Still, Sentinels aren't always half the damage of all Scrappers.  Its a bit much. 😉 

 

Final note.  Some of the recent changes really make Sentinels look a lot worse than they probably did around May 2019.  We've seen a spike in power for Tankers.  We've seen a much smoother version of instant snipe.  We've some tweaks here and there.  The power creep will just make it worse.

1) The issue is mainly the lack of the Sniper and not ultra helpful inherent, I really don't feel as if the AT warrants not getting a sniper in favor of these ungodly replacements, someone may disagree with that, I understand why, but I  just think the Sentinel needs a "pick me up" from relying on procing out Dominate, try to make it work with Blaze, having to go into melee for Mind Probe (which kind of makes the Sentinel being "ranged" concept go a little bit out the window, but that's OK, you make that choice when you select the power) and then the rest you're stuck to Flares/Fire Blast (rant: one of my BIGGEST gripes is that I'm forced to use Flares to get an offensive opportunity on an enemy, which will lower my actual DPS done, I get that it will overall help you deal more damage... but that is super annoying). The Sniper is available to Dominators/Corruptors/Defenders/Scrappers/Stalkers (via epic power pool), I don't see why Sentinel has to miss the boat on arguably one of the best ST powers and suffer with a ST hit that does repel, that seems wrong to me.

I 100% see your point, and I understand it, it seems like the Sonic version for a Sentinel is a lot better than the Blaster version, that is a great point to discuss!

2) This becomes more of a slotting issue with some IO sets allowing better bonuses for AT powerset choices than others, but I have to agree, there are easier slotting opportunities and it is more straightforward to build a Sentinel than a Blaster, however I will say you definitely have to tether the line carefully between being "tanky" and being more "damaging" in quite a lot of the choices. 

3) Yes, 100% agree. I think it comes down to the preference in most cases of the nuke, would you rather have it up in a weaker for in 20 seconds or a fully damaging form in 30-40 seconds? 

4) It's sad to think about honestly, I would think that the Blaster would be deserving of the higher damage than said Scrapper (this isn't so much so about Sentinel for the moment) due to the fact they've sacrificed all inherent means of defense from their primary and secondary beyond an absorb/regen toggle and in some cases defense or a hold. I would think the Blasters should be at least EQUAL to them, but as the game currently stands, they just feel uneven. Yet honestly they are not the most damaging players on a team usually which is sort of... off... that said, I think Blasters are still in a better position than Sentinels are. 

5) If we were talking just empathy only with a defender on a team, I would agree... That said that is probably one of the absolute worst case scenarios for a damaging Defender, Storm Summoning will leaps and bounds deal more ST damage than Sentinels. They also gain Vigilance on their own which brings their damage levels to something *close* to the Sentinel's (I think it's around a 30% damage buff if you're not with a team - solo). A lot of defender primaries can greatly enhance their secondary damage, especially ones that are -res heavy and will deal more damage than the Sentinel, especially solo. That and defenders themselves fulfill a teaming niche moreso than a damage one, but I see the comparison you're making, I just think it may not tell the full story for every case. 
Corruptors are a very special case where I feel like they are either going to literally blow Sentinel damage out of the water and basically become genuinely more damaging than Blasters or they're going to be a weaker AT, more often the latter than the former but there are outliers that are really good, fire blast / kinetics is the one I am mainly thinking of. 

6) Well their ST values are fairly comparable sadly, I know you're comparing "apples to titanium" (bad joke here I know!) but that is just how the damage breaks down for them. 8-9 minute Pylon times are not unheard for them and aren't really even an "uncommon" occurrence sadly. Many Dominators deal more damage than them when IO'd properly (I'm try to use a majority ranged damage type to compare) because of their snipe, their better proc'd holds, the better overall DPA's of the attacks, etc.  

7) I absolutely would believe you! I never said that I didn't believe the other poster, I have only said that I believed it probably wasn't a fair comparison (badly built Scrapper, IOs vs. SOs, non-incarnate vs incarnate, etc.). I do not believe a Sentinel is completely unplayable or can't be in the game, I have only argued it just *lags* in comparison to everything else and I just want it to "shine" moreso. 

I absolutely agree with what you've said about seeing the changes of them now versus where they left off in May 2019. I just think it is time for this AT to be looked at and given its dues. 

 

I see the argument for Sentinels in the current state that they're more friendly and require less of a learning curve than Blasters do. I have hardly ever died on my Sentinel (maybe  5 times total?) and on my other Blaster that has died only 3 times, I was especially careful and it was definitely not my first go around with Blasters by any means, I've achieved "Exalted" on Blaster easier than every AT sans controllers (early on levels on controller >_<!)

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by 33053222

[oldskool]

14 minutes ago, 33053222 said:

5) If we were talking just empathy only with a defender on a team, I would agree... That said that is probably one of the absolute worst case scenarios for a damaging Defender, Storm Summoning will leaps and bounds deal more ST damage than Sentinels. They also gain Vigilance on their own which brings their damage levels to something *close* to the Sentinel's (I think it's around a 30% damage buff if you're not with a team - solo). A lot of defender primaries can greatly enhance their secondary damage, especially ones that are -res heavy and will deal more damage than the Sentinel, especially solo. That and defenders themselves fulfill a teaming niche moreso than a damage one, but I see the comparison you're making, I just think it may not tell the full story for every case. 
Corruptors are a very special case where I feel like they are either going to literally blow Sentinel damage out of the water and basically become genuinely more damaging than Blasters or they're going to be a weaker AT, more often the latter than the former but there are outliers that are really good, fire blast / kinetics is the one I am mainly thinking of. 

I appreciate your reply, truly. 

 

I'm really not just talking Empathy though.  I'm talking the concept to the entire Defender AT.  Storm Summoning was something I wanted to talk about before, and I'm glad you bring it up.  Storm is a tier unto itself.  

Note, I currently running a Dark Miasma/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender.  Back on live I played Dark/Dark Defender.  I have a Rad/Rad Defender, a Trick Arrow/Archery Defender, and for a time ran a Dual Pistols/Dark Miasma/Soul Corruptor.  On live, back in the day, I played a Sonic/Sonic Corruptor and a Fire/Dark Corr.  

My primary Sentinel is Dual Pistols/Ninjutsu.  By no means do I want to suggest that Dual Pistols is perfect, but I've played it on 3 different ATs on Homecoming.  Hell, my experience in doing so taught me so much about the set itself and what it can do.  All 3 ATs inspired me to write the really long write-up about the set in the sticky at the top of this forum.  Dark Miasma is great support, its easily my favorite next to Rad Emission.  I'm not kidding when I say my Sentinel out damages my Defender.  Though my Defender absolutely has broader appeal in team play.  Since my Defender is also designed with procs it also happens to do more damage than it really should.  Without those procs Tar Patch doesn't do enough to make it out pace a Sentinel's base damage scalar or its better options on single target.  Furthermore, Incendiary Ammo functions on AT damage so that is an advantage to both Blasters/Sentinels where the Defender/Corruptor have far better debuffs. 

 

We're treading into the territory of classes I play with the majority of my time. I'm not sure you actually play a Defender.  Maybe you do and we just have completely different perspectives.  

Last summer I ran some Pylon tests with the Sentinel, Corruptor, and Defender.  I joined in on some other threads around the web about my findings.  I'll share them again here.  

Without any procs, and pushing full sets, the Sentinel in this scenario comes out ahead of the Defender even in solo with 30% on Vigilance.  The Defender's base scalar is already low.  In solo play Scourge and Vigilance are awfully blurry.  In team play where Defenders start gaining endurance benefits over damage Scourge can pull ahead for the Corruptor.  In the case of Dual Pistols, the Sentinel still has an edge.  So I started pushing damage procs.  Again, the Sentinel still edges out a little bit but the gap does start to close a lot.  Where the Defender and Corruptor really skew the numbers isn't  Pylon test.  It's fighting groups.  Tar Patch + fully saturated Soul Drain into Hail of Bullets + Bullet Rain is pretty potent stuff.  I wouldn't exactly think of that as a given for most Defenders/Corruptors just a certain series of build decisions.  In real play I juggle no ammo or chemical rounds on my Defender for the super sweet debuffs.  Not running Incendiary ammo is a big drop in personal damage, but totally worth on Defenders for force multiplication.  

Trick Arrow/Archery running full sets vs procs is mostly just ass for personal damage.  Running a proc monster Offender can get you into a 5-6 minute Pylon kill range.  That's pretty sweet but its ceiling isn't a lot lower than that.  Some Sentinel builds go 4 minutes but they aren't debuffing everyone and their brother either.  So point to you about team support, but that was never in question.  

My Rad/Rad also abuses procs.  That combo just isn't fair to compare with anything though much like Storm Summoning.  Having some reasonable damage through procs plus imposing stupid levels of debuffs like -45% to-hit and defense is kinda broken.  

 

My old Fire/Dark was definitely a monster.  Fire/Kin is also quite strong, but that's no secret that Fulcrum Shift is what makes it.  Hell, a Fire/Kin Controller is a monster.  So is Plant/Storm and a few others.  My Gravity/Time does pretty silly levels of area and ST damage.  My Dark/Dark Controller's pets (Haunt, Shadow-Puppy, even Fluffy) all have negative energy procs.  That stuff adds up!  Again though we're talking about procs with IOs that turn those particular builds into monsters.  

Tankers often took longer to take out an enemy.  Many of my Sentinels can accomplish a Pylon downing in 6 minutes and some easily do it faster than others (and I haven't gone that far with my new Fire/Fire Sent).  I do need to build procs into my attacks to make that happen across a lot of primaries so that's hardly indicative game balance, but its there.  Of course, I also have no problem in dropping 600+ million on my builds either.  So its easy for me to climb the ivory tower and say how my play experience is "OK".  Anyone just throwing together a casual Sentinel build is probably going to think its total butt for a DPS class and get turned off.  So again, point taken.  

Actually those kinds of points are exactly the kind of thing I was wanting to advocate.  I think the Sentinel feels like a fairly smooth ride, but it does have more than a few bumps to smooth out to make it more accessible.  Just being near immortal for most the game isn't really a compelling reason to play it for many, and the damage feels like it has a lower ceiling than it should for a DPS class.  So I'm with ya.  

Final notes about snipes.  Ya know, back before snipes weren't always as accessible as they are right now.  Blasters really needed to build that 22% to-hit in order to make those snipes rotational.  That was a pain in the butt.  In some cases it pretty much means that snipes weren't available in the general rotation option.  So Sentinels come along as a new design that waters down the old snipe into a rotational attack or replaces it.  Then you get bolstered CC powers and all of a sudden the Sentinel has new ST chains available that Blasters didn't.  Fast forward through 2019, and now snipes are far more available across the different ATs which kicks the Sentinels one big gimmick right in the crotch.  Hence the reason why I mentioned the current power creep.  The lack of the snipe isn't really the issue.  Its that snipes as they exist now make the concept of the Sentinel design superfluous. 

 

I'm not trying to convince you to give this another shot.  If you don't think the damage is there now, then I doubt you'll find what clicks for you elsewhere in this AT.  However, if the potential for doing anywhere between 230 to 300+ DPS is abhorrent, then investing into this AT any further isn't for you.  There are several ATs that can accept a 500 million to 1+ billion influence build and squeeze out more damage.  

Just keep in mind that very little in this game needs a lot more personal DPS than the 200-230 range.  You'll certainly clear things faster, but its not like there was much challenge there in the first place.  

Anyway, good talk.  Again, I appreciated this one. 

 

[Coyote]

5 hours ago, 33053222 said:

Honestly, if people don't want the nukes changed at all or think they're fine, I understand, but please here me out, if nothing else, please look into the ST, that is genuinely my biggest issue with the Sentinel. I felt like every post I've made surrounded the nuke but truly it is the single-target that has the deepest issues

 

Just to note, most of the arguments that you received WERE about the AoE... several of us who said that overall Sentinels were fine, DID agree with your point about their damage being low when looking specifically at single-target DPS.

 

Also, just as a note, I've found that Sentinels do FAR better than Blasters, to chase DPS via damage procs. Their base damage is lower, and several of their attacks have longer durations, and they have higher defenses base, so they can afford to sacrifice more set bonuses in order to go for damage via procs. This makes their builds look different, and if they're built in a "normal" way, their stats are a lot lower than when you build them oriented upon damage procs. For example, I have a Dark Blast build with 2 single target attacks that are over 400 damage each before Incarnates... 450 and 490 or so, with Musculature. Without procs, they're well over 100 points lower for each of them.

 

So, yes, you do have a point about their single-target damage being low. I'm not sure how much this MATTERS when considering whether the AT is weak or strong, or otherwise grading it, but there is definitely a good amount of truth to that point.

[Crysis]

My DP/SR/Ninja Sentinel does very weak damage.  Sturdy, but almost nothing there.  You can survive forever, but that’s important because you will take forever to kill things.

 

On the other hand, my Fire/Rad/Fire Sentinel is very sturdy, has three PbAOE nukes that are up almost every spawn (a couple twice per spawn) and is a very explosive-tanky kind of character.  I’ve outsurvived tankers and I certainly out damage them, even after the new buffs.  The recharge on this toon is so high that AOE’s are the primary attacks and the ST stuff is just to pick off runners.

 

All said though, I think OP may have picked the wrong powers to think of this is a the ultimate Sentinel.  Then again, the ultimate Sentinel for damage output is still fairly underpowered relative to just about all other ranged attackers in the game.

[oldskool]

43 minutes ago, Crysis said:

My DP/SR/Ninja Sentinel does very weak damage.  Sturdy, but almost nothing there.  You can survive forever, but that’s important because you will take forever to kill things.

Full sets or procs?  With full sets, I can see that.  Piercing Round or no?  Piercing Rounds has been a DPS loss for me in all my testing.  

My first run of tests went with full sets and Piercing rounds (Piercing - Pistols - Executioner - Pistols).  I think my first Pylon run was 12 minutes.  After some build tweaking I pushed it down to 8-9 minutes.  After dropping Piercing Rounds it went lower.  

 

When I started to introduce procs my times stabilized around 8 minutes.  When I refined my slotting my times dropped to 6 minutes.  That was many months ago.  Since then I have refined things further with greater uptime on Achilles' Heel and predictable uptime on Opportunity.  I really should run a new test.  

Anyway, this is also another reason why I think the Sentinel needs a review.  The inherent requires far more thought about maintaining its uptime in pretty much every primary not called "Fire Blast".  Several of the middling performance set (by Sentinel standards, not other ATs) are heavily reliant on procs to increase their DPS by upwards of 100%.  That's a pretty big problem in my opinion.  

Tangent -- I've been retooling an Assault Rifle Sent due to the poo-poo post about it.  Before I really didn't do a good deep dive on the manipulating the Opportunity mechanic, but now I've got 60+% uptime.  The power pruning, retooling, and Opportunity considerations turned out to be a +20 DPS swing in just napkin math.  

No set, not a one, should require that much calculation in order for it to feel even remotely acceptable.  That's my issue with the AT.  It works, but you have to put a lot of effort in to it.  

So yeah, supporting you're point Crysis. 😉 

Edited February 28, 2020 by oldskool

[Crysis]

49 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Full sets or procs?  With full sets, I can see that.  Piercing Round or no?  Piercing Rounds has been a DPS loss for me in all my testing.  

Have played with both slotting models.  Honestly, in normal PVE (not a Pylon test), Piercing Rounds + Procs “feels” like better damage.  Because of the animation and what you see with orange numbers.  But I agree, its actually bad for your DPS.  I’ve since returned to mostly full sets.  If you’d like, I’ll dump my build here, but I based it on another thread (rarely follow builds as exactly as posted however).

 

It did get better with Incarnates as I was then able to change up my slotting even further.  But then, everything else just gets that much better than Sentinels ever will.

 

Honestly, the Blaster changes have spoiled me as to what a high damage AT can accomplish via Absorb and DEF slotting.  I’ve got a Fire/Energy blaster that has perma power boost so S/L/Ranged DEF is all pushing 60% and fantastic recharge of almost +185%.  She doesn’t faceplant at all, hasn’t even died once since lvl 39.  So when I look at Sent’s, with naturally better DEF and RES to begin with, I think they could actually back down a bit on some of the secondary values and instead re-divert them into primary.  Or even do something like extend a Sent’s native high +DEF/+RES and let it benefit the team somehow (sort of like Grant Cover for a Shield player).  That is what I actually THOUGHT a “Sentinel” was going to be when it was first announced.  

 

But I’m no designer so unsure of what it needs.  More damage for sure.  But if you really want to make it a “scrappy Blaster” then it needs a lot more than that.  Maybe more AOE oriented primaries, maybe more melee attacks and fewer ranged.  Right now, they are just a hodgepodge and feel a lot like the PeaceBringers when they were first introduced.  Jack of all trades, master of absolutely nothing.

[Frosticus]

As I've said before in the past:

IOs do a lot more for boosting survivability than they do for boosting damage.

 

You may double or in some cases even triple your dps, but you can improve your survival rate by many more times than that. 

 

A heavily IOd blaster demonstrates the idea of "enough" survivability and gets to leverage their extreme aoe and high st damage.

 

A heavy IOd sentinel becomes absurdly survivable (probably way more than is needed) at range but lacks the force multiplication found in the debuffing ATs to have great damage. 

 

With SOs or even mild IOs sentinels are way more robust than blasters, cores, doms, etc. And do damage that is probably commensurate of that.

 

Extreme IO builds are extreme.

 

That said, all the nukes should have been reworked to be ranged for sentinels and melee attacks in the epics was a strange decision. 

 

[drbuzzard]

Oddly enough the one place I've seen sentinels shine fully was over on We Have Cake. If you run a sentinel on their archive server (which is i25, rather than the strange kludge that feels like an alpha of i24 mods that is their live server), you can run around in an environment where the aggro and AOE caps are set to 200 for everything. Thus sentinels can herd up rooms and blast them to goo, and thus leverage all their defense in excess of that achievable by a blaster. 

 

Of course since such a situation happening here is approximately as likely as winged monkeys flying out of my butt, I'd say the AT needs some help. 

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Oops! 

 

I just noticed this is a big thread necro for a thread that generated a lot of heat. I apologize. Please feel free to delete this. 

 

Next time I'll check the dates before responding to a thread I find with the search function. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by EnjoyTheJourney

[Hyperstrike]

54 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Oops! 

 

I just noticed this is a big thread necro for a thread that generated a lot of heat. I apologize. Please feel free to delete this. 

 

Next time I'll check the dates before responding to a thread I find with the search function.