Fire Melee should Splash Fire

[Makobolite]

With Rad melee having it's "contaminated" be something that does damage to enemies around the target,

 

As well as Fire Melee being a set which has no alternative effect except additional DoT, but not necessarily being a whole lot better than other sets at it, something that might make Fire Melee stand out would be to give it an additional "Burning" splash, because honestly, you light an enemy on fire, how does that not spread to the other enemies nearby? Maybe allow other enemies to be affected by the DoT portion of your attack, but something to give Fire Melee an edge with regards to damage, because that's all it do, like, burn everything kind of thing.

 

Just wondering what you guys think about that

[Solarverse]

Fire is extremely powerful, most often the highest damage in game. I think giving it any type of boost will just make it overpowered. The only thing I would change about Fire is the fact that Fire Brutes don't get the Combustion power, they lose out on an AoE. Other than that, they are good.

[Haijinx]

Fire Melee underperforms from where it should though.

 

Too many slow old school animations

[Troo]

/jr

[Solarverse]

23 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Fire Melee underperforms from where it should though.

 

Too many slow old school animations

They are the same as Ice Melee though, and more damage.

[Leogunner]

It's really only Fire Melee that has trouble.

 

Fire Blast is pretty effective and Fiery Aura has its benefits.

[Solarverse]

19 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

It's really only Fire Melee that has trouble.

 

Fire Blast is pretty effective and Fiery Aura has its benefits.

I don't understand how or why it is having trouble when it out classes Ice Melee in every aspect.

[Apparition]

10 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I don't understand how or why it is having trouble when it out classes Ice Melee in every aspect.

 

Take a look here - 

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/10506-scrapper-melee-primary-testing-standard-environment/?do=findComment&comment=131244

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Apparition

[Caulderone]

And here, too:

 

 

edit to add for Solarverse:  Ice has a lot of mitigation (hold, kd patch, slow) that fire gives up for damage it doesn't deliver.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Caulderone

[Haijinx]

31 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I don't understand how or why it is having trouble when it out classes Ice Melee in every aspect.

Trouble is the wrong word.  

 

Fire Melee has no secondary effect, just more damage.   However its not actually in the running for the highest damage Melee set.    Neither ST nor AOE.  

 

Even if you throw out TW.  

 

Ice Melee has other secondary effects.  So it realistically shouldn't be in the running anyway. 

[Haijinx]

56 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

It's really only Fire Melee that has trouble.

 

Fire Blast is pretty effective and Fiery Aura has its benefits.

Yeah this is interesting.  Fire Blast has fast animations in addition to DOT, perhaps?

[Solarverse]

56 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

Take a look here - 

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/10506-scrapper-melee-primary-testing-standard-environment/?do=findComment&comment=131244

 

Okay, but that has more to do with damage mitigation and less to do with damage output. This thread is about damage and less about survival mitigation.

 

• Scorch = 70.02                                            Frozen Fists = 68.82
• Fire Sword = 105.6                                      Ice Sword = 90.84
• Incinerate = 172.0 at T5                              Frozen Touch = 200.6 at T8
• Fire Sword Circle = 121 at T8                      Frozen Aura = 97.72 at T9
• Cremate = 137.9
• 606.52 Total                                                 457.98 Total

I'm just having a hard time seeing how Fire needs any kind of Damage buff. I could understand if the OP was asking for some type of mitigation, however, the OP is asking for Splash Damage, essentially asking for more AoE.

 

If more AoE is what the OP wants, he would have been better off to ask to replace Cremate with Combustion, just like the Tank counterpart. However, as far as a damage buff for fire? I just can't get on board with it.

 

Maybe you can convince me, I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but as of right not, I am just not seeing how Fire can be underperforming when we have sets like Ice that has been doing far worse since the start of this game.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Solarverse
Typo

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

/jr

I agree with you as far as the splash damage idea.

 

I think a small adjustment to DPA somewhere would be better.

 

Just so Fire Melee can be in the top 3 of either AOE or ST at least.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Okay, but that has more to do with damage mitigation and less to do with damage output. This thread is about damage and less about survival mitigation.

 

• Scorch = 70.02                                            Frozen Fists = 68.82
• Fire Sword = 105.6                                      Ice Sword = 90.84
• Incinerate = 172.0 at T5                              Frozen Touch = 200.6 at T8
• Fire Sword Circle = 121 at T8                      Frozen Aura = 97.72 at T9
• Cremate = 137.9
• 606.52 Total                                                 457.98 Total

I'm just having a hard time seeing how Fire needs any kind of Damage buff. I could understand if the OP was asking for some type of mitigation, however, the OP is asking for Splash Damage, essentially asking for more AoE.

 

If more AoE is what the OP wants, he would have been better off to ask to replace Cremate with Combustion, just like the Tank counterpart. However, as far as a damage buff for fire? I just can't get on board with it.

 

Maybe you can convince me, I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but as of right now, I am just now seeing how Fire can be underperforming when we have sets like Ice that has been doing far worse since the start of this game.

Maybe they both have DPA issues, Fire's just has been hidden by the DOT numbers. 

[Solarverse]

26 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

And here, too:

 

 

edit to add for Solarverse:  Ice has a lot of mitigation (hold, kd patch, slow) that fire gives up for damage it doesn't deliver.

I think it delivers, just not as much as people would like. I believe when the Devs replaced Combustion with Cremate, that caused this. IMO they need to put it back to what a Tank has and the set should be right as rain.

 

Like I said, I can get on board with replacing Cremate with Combustion, but I can't see adding Splash damage to Fire attacks.

 

I would also be okay with adding a short stun effect to fire...it even makes a bit of sense, being set ablaze can cut the oxygen from somebody, that on top of suddenly being set ablaze can stun for a short time until you figure out your actually on fire. So I could see a very short stun being added to Fire attacks.

 

However, giving the set more damage with Splash damage, I just can't get on top of that. I say replace Cremate with Combustion and you fix the set.

[Caulderone]

Yeah, I don't particularly think splash damage is the fix I'd prefer either.

[Pzn]

10 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Okay, but that has more to do with damage mitigation and less to do with damage output. This thread is about damage and less about survival mitigation.

 

• Scorch = 70.02                                            Frozen Fists = 68.82
• Fire Sword = 105.6                                      Ice Sword = 90.84
• Incinerate = 172.0 at T5                              Frozen Touch = 200.6 at T8
• Fire Sword Circle = 121 at T8                      Frozen Aura = 97.72 at T9
• Cremate = 137.9
• 606.52 Total                                                 457.98 Total

I'm just having a hard time seeing how Fire needs any kind of Damage buff. I could understand if the OP was asking for some type of mitigation, however, the OP is asking for Splash Damage, essentially asking for more AoE.

 

If more AoE is what the OP wants, he would have been better off to ask to replace Cremate with Combustion, just like the Tank counterpart. However, as far as a damage buff for fire? I just can't get on board with it.

 

Maybe you can convince me, I'm trying to keep an open mind here, but as of right not, I am just not seeing how Fire can be underperforming when we have sets like Ice that has been doing far worse since the start of this game.

You need to compare DPA.  Comparing the base damage is meaningless unless you take into account how long the attacks take.  Ice melee is far better than fire melee and one of the higher performing melee sets now.  Frozen touch is better than anything in fiery melee by a large margin.

[Solarverse]

35 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

You need to compare DPA.  Comparing the base damage is meaningless unless you take into account how long the attacks take.  Ice melee is far better than fire melee and one of the higher performing melee sets now.  Frozen touch is better than anything in fiery melee by a large margin.

I guess I am just not understanding, man. I just looked it up and found that on average, the recharge times and duration of animation times are almost identical. Breath of Fire has a .4 second longer animation than Frost, Frozen Fists has a .33 second longer cast time, Incinerate has a .67 seconds longer animation than Freezing Touch and Fire Sword Circle has a .57 second second longer animation that Frozen Aura.

 

That is a total of 1.31 seconds difference between cast times. If we want to calculate Cremate in to this, since Ice does not have a comparable power to this, you can add another 1.5 seconds to that. However, since Ice does not get a counter part to that which grants damage, Ice is still the loser by a country mile. Even taking DPA in to account, Fire still out classes Ice in the DPS department.

 

Having said all of that, like I had mentioned before, swap Cremate for Combustion and that gives Fire Melee the Umph it needs to be where players can feel comfortable with it.

 

When Fire Melee was first introduced to anything outside of Blasters and Tankers, I was shocked to see Combustion taken off that list. The extra AoE in Fire Melee was what set that set aside from others. Swapping it out for Cremate was just highly questionable then, and from what I am seeing on this thread, it only gives evidence that doing so was a bad idea. It stole from the set's DPS capabilities.

 

I say swap Cremate for Combustion, bring Incinerate in line with Freezing Touch, and you have yourself the Fire set it should have been. You do not need Splash Damage to pull off your desired effect. Doing what I mention in this paragraph should make any Fire Melee player as happy as Kool-Aid in a summer breeze.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

You do not need Splash Damage to pull off your desired effect. 

I don't think anyone is arguing that anymore although, to me, advocating for Combustion instead of Incinerate is almost like asking for fire splash damage.  Is Combustion even that good?  And I mean without putting a bunch of procs in it.  I think the bigger problem is Greater Fire Sword (and to a lesser extent, Greater Ice Sword).  They should probably closer in-line with Greater Psi Blade in damage or have some sort of alternative mechanism to them like being narrow cones, dropping a mini-Burn patch or something, especially for GFS being the capstone of the set.

 

Also, you might omit the Tanker version of GFS from improvements if Combustion is really that good.

[Solarverse]

50 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I don't think anyone is arguing that anymore although, to me, advocating for Combustion instead of Incinerate is almost like asking for fire splash damage.  Is Combustion even that good?  And I mean without putting a bunch of procs in it.  I think the bigger problem is Greater Fire Sword (and to a lesser extent, Greater Ice Sword).  They should probably closer in-line with Greater Psi Blade in damage or have some sort of alternative mechanism to them like being narrow cones, dropping a mini-Burn patch or something, especially for GFS being the capstone of the set.

 

Also, you might omit the Tanker version of GFS from improvements if Combustion is really that good.

Wouldn't bother me if they even adopted Greater Psi Blade's animation.

 

It was actually Cremate.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Solarverse

[MunkiLord]

Personally I think comparing Fire to War Mace would be more helpful. War Mace does amazing single target, good AoE, and has tons of mitigation. 

[Galaxy Brain]

No no, Ice Melee is way better because of FROST and FROZEN AURA. 

 

Both of these are superior AoE attacks due to sheer area of effect in the former, and a faster animation in the latter than FSC. From the scrapper testing on SO's at the least, there is a legit difference:

 

 

Overall tests

 

 

My personal stats from the tests

 

 

 

Having the ability to not only safely take on enemies with a defensive secondary effect, but also keep them close with soft control + having more EFFICIENT AoE potential makes a big difference.

 

 

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Having the ability to not only safely take on enemies with a defensive secondary effect, but also keep them close with soft control + having more EFFICIENT AoE potential makes a big difference.

 

 

I would hope that the suggestions above would cover that though. I did mention the Frost and Freezing Touch being two major factors. Would would you have suggested in its place?

[Galaxy Brain]

53 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I would hope that the suggestions above would cover that though. I did mention the Frost and Freezing Touch being two major factors. Would would you have suggested in its place?

I think the greater swords are a sore spot for both. In both sets, Incinerate and Freezing Touch are just flat out better ST attacks.  Greater Fire Sword I think could definitely use a big splash of fire damage to differentiate it from the other ST attacks and cause more group chaos to enemies, that and make Fire Breath actually good with either a wider cone or way more damage.

 

For Greater Ice Sword, maybe have it just be a better ST attack?

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I think the greater swords are a sore spot for both. In both sets, Incinerate and Freezing Touch are just flat out better ST attacks.  Greater Fire Sword I think could definitely use a big splash of fire damage to differentiate it from the other ST attacks and cause more group chaos to enemies, that and make Fire Breath actually good with either a wider cone or way more damage.

 

For Greater Ice Sword, maybe have it just be a better ST attack?

Sure thing, give it Greater Psi Blade's animation and we have a deal!  😄