Focused Feedback: Dark Melee Update (Build 2)

[Bionic_Flea]

21 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Please make soul drains recharge 90 seconds to line up with DE. The off time is beyond annoying and forces max recharge building for DM to minimize the difference. Especially since we know nobody is going to use either without the other.

 

20 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Notice I DIDN'T say to buff it. I only called for a 90s recharge to line it up with DE.

 

14 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I'm not asking for "more" I'm asking for whatever needs to be done to have the recharge match dark equilibrium. Big difference. Or even make DE 60s recharge and adjust it that way to 10 end per enemy. I'd be a lot happier then if leaving SD alone. It actually seems like the best scenario for the power with these new changes that nerfed it. 60s rech for DE.

 

 

14 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I'll say again if the power is to stay, give it a 60s base recharge, 10 end per enemy, 20 for the first one hit. Then it'll line up with soul drain, half off. Give it a 12-15ft radius. And a 20-30s duration -10% to hit to give that more of a use.

 

Puts it at a perfect in between of mini nuke and actual aoe attack with benefits.

 

13 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Damage scaled for 60 seconds it still would be. Look at rain of arrows in comparison to other blaster tier 9 powers, same idea.

 

60s recharge, better damage than regular aoe attacks, less than lightning rod, bonus utility (which dm has always been the utility set).

 

13 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I agree, they should make its recharge 60 seconds base with a 12-15ft radius and it would be perfect.

 

12 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Putting it at a base 60s recharge with a 12-15ft radius and lowering the end per target with most focused on the first target hit would do that and give more utility to the -to hit a end gain earlier on.

 

12 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I would be fine with a 10ft radius at a 60s recharge. The 60s base recharge is super super key to keep it in line with soul drains timing and utilize the secondary effects of the power better.

 

9 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Except it works completely different from build up. All I'm talking about is timing. I'm fine with it staying as is if they make DE 60 seconds instead of 90 which if you read above honestly makes more sense anyway.

 

7 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

The better solution is still to change it's recharge to 60s for the reasons I've listed above. For one given its damage or end nature, it makes sense, and is unique on it's own with that recharge in the scrapper category as no other melee attack has that recharge/use. It would let every other one line up with soul drain which is the big issue here, and be more useful for the end/-to hit factors. Seriously, try it at 60s recharge, lowering the damage by about 10%.

 

6 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

*cough* 60s rech, 10ft radius *cough* *cough*

 

5 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I agree, I don't mind some of the damage being DoT, it's more annoying when that's on a single target than on an aoe. What bugs me is if they don't make it a 60s recharge to line up with soul drain every other DE, and give the -to hit more chance to be utilized and increase the radius to at least 10ft.

NO!

Asking for the same thing over and over and over is not very persuasive.  Saying it in big letters doesn't make mine any more persuasive, but it does balance out the noise a bit.

[Gobbledigook]

Some Random ideas.

 

Touch or Fear becomes Aspect of fear or Feed on Fear. A Pulsing AoE like an aura with a short duration that fears all within 10ft and gives endurance for each foe feared, Feeding on the fear. 60-90 sec Cooldown.

 

Dark consumption becomes a damaging AoE with -to hit only and no endurance buff. 75% instant damage with 25% dot.

[Myrmidon]

@Captain Powerhouse, the sound-effect bug is still there for Shadow Maul. I would very much prefer that you just put the bamboo shoots under my nails and get the torture over with instead of the constant whiffing sound from that while testing.😄

[ScarySai]

I kinda like the DoT idea in theory, solo-wise. Keeps the food alive if you're wailing on the boss just long enough to milk that damage buff out of them.

 

Still, how much it'll do and how fast it ticks is a big part of if it's a good idea or not.

 

Could go either way, looking forward to the next build.

Edited March 1, 2020 by ScarySai

[Galaxy Brain]

The comment about DoTs is on point... having them all sped up by like 2x would be groovy

[Neogumbercules]

If the idea is to lower the damage so you can't nuke off minions instantly, then turning into a DoT is a way to get there, but it has to be a fast DoT. As many people have already stated, this game is extremely AoE focused and everyone opens every fight with some form of huge AoE.

 

In fact I'm not even convinced of the premise that it kills off minions too fast and provides too much safety. That argument could be applied to dozens of powers in this game. Why does DM need to be different?

[Captain Powerhouse]

Saying this now so it’s not a shock when it testing, the DoT will be over a long period of time, likely 15 seconds. It will likely be a fast ticker, though.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[Galaxy Brain]

12 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Saying this now so it’s not a shock when it testing, the DoT will be over a long period of time, likely 15 seconds. It will likely be a fast ticker, though.

If it is a long DoT, boost the damage back up a good deal because regeneration will occur during that time.

 

I get that there should be room for counter hits, but 15 sec is a long time and will allow for enemy health regen to fight the damage. It should be enough to kill a minion straight up if you have to wait that long for it to tick down and allow them to hit back.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[KelvinKole]

8 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Saying this now so it’s not a shock when it testing, the DoT will be over a long period of time, likely 15 seconds. It will likely be a fast ticker, though.

Will it be isolated to the damage enhanceable portion of the attack or the endurance modified portion? Neither? 

 

I think it could be a good idea to leave the damage enhanceable portion of the attack as burst damage and the bonus portion, which is based on endurance, as the DoT. Or maybe vice-versa, have to think about it. 

Edited March 1, 2020 by KelvinKole

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

Some Random ideas.

 

Touch or Fear becomes Aspect of fear or Feed on Fear. A Pulsing AoE like an aura with a short duration that fears all within 10ft and gives endurance for each foe feared, Feeding on the fear. 60-90 sec Cooldown.

 

Dark consumption becomes a damaging AoE with -to hit only and no endurance buff. 75% instant damage with 25% dot.

They're already pushing it, but this suggestion is WAY to much breaking of the cottage rule, and without necessity.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Wavicle

[Gauntlet_Prime]

Just an odd thought here.  Since there is some issue with getting the balance just right on DE why not just change it back to regular DC and try something different.  What if another power were made into an AoE with some sorta flavor.  Midnight grasp could do 1/3 to 1/2 its damage to mobs around the main target in a tight AoE (the tentacles whipping nearby targets) or Drain life could do half the damage but be a targeted AoE with Melee range and radius.  Or the new chain mechanic could be leveraged on an attack.

 

I am just saying, this seems like there are a TON of variables being added to DC.  Damage based on current end, unenhancable portions of damage, changing the AoE, gaining/loosing the bonus damage ring, loosing the crit-ability, and now duration of the dot is a discussion point.  It just seems like we are trying to make a square peg fit in the round hole.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Gauntlet_Prime

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Gauntlet_Prime said:

Just an odd thought here.  Since there is some issue with getting the balance just right on DE why not just change it back to regular DC and try something different.  What if another power were made into an AoE with some sorta flavor.  Midnight grasp could do 1/2 to 1/2 its damage to mobs around the main target (the tentacles whipping nearby targets.  Or Drain life could do half the damage but be a targeted AoE with Melee range and radius.  Or the new chain mechanic could be leveraged on an attack.

 

I am just saying, this seems like there are a TON of variables being added to DC.  Damage based on current end, unenhancable portions of damage, changing the AoE, gaining/loosing the bonus damage ring, loosing the crit-ability, and now duration of the dot is a discussion point.  It just seems like we are trying to make a square peg fit in the round hole.

Changing how an AoE works is not as big a change as changing a single target ability to be AoE.

[Neogumbercules]

19 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Saying this now so it’s not a shock when it testing, the DoT will be over a long period of time, likely 15 seconds. It will likely be a fast ticker, though.

What about applying an end drain-over-time effect to go along with this to give the impression that the player is leeching endurance directly from the foes over time? 

 

Either way, 15 seconds is an eternity in CoH terms. I'll definitely be on Beta trying it out, but I feel like we've strayed really far from the original premise of giving DM a decent AOE attack. 

[Gauntlet_Prime]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Changing how an AoE works is not as big a change as changing a single target ability to be AoE.

What I am proposing is if the intent is to add some AoE to the set, adding literally "some AoE" to an attack might be more straight forward than adding multiple layers of variables to a single AoE and changing everything about it.  It would take the unmolested damage of dark melee and simply add extra AoE damage too it that could easily be tweaked to the desired numbers.

 

Want to add x amount of damage per mission?  See how often you used a power.  Devide X by that for Y damage per use.  Divide Y by number of targets you expect to be average.  Then just mild tweaking to get the number where you want it.  Yes that is overly simplified but it is a talking point not a math proof.

[Captain Powerhouse]

35 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

If it is a long DoT, boost the damage back up a good deal because regeneration will occur during that time.

At lease at this time, pending testing, the idea is to bring the damage back to fully enhanceable.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

NO!

Asking for the same thing over and over and over is not very persuasive.  Saying it in big letters doesn't make mine any more persuasive, but it does balance out the noise a bit.

Thank you. I was going to post about how the feedback was getting far too stubborn.  

Edited March 1, 2020 by Leogunner

[Neogumbercules]

I think it's important to remember that a power has to be exciting and feel impactful and hit those dopemine receptors that we're all feeding to still be a good power. 

 

We can give DE a 15 second dot, and then math out that over the course of a standard radio mission it's output is roughly equivalent to Atom Smasher, but what power is better to a player? Personally I'd go Atom Smasher every time.

 

It's still a video game that we're playing here and long, slow dots are lame. This game is closer than its ever been to an ARPG like Diablo 3 and the fun of those games is blowing up monsters. Why would I ever fire off DE when my whole team just opened with Radial Ion Final Judgement and everything is dead? My AR blaster has the same problem. Flamethrower is not touched on teams. I'm lucky to get out Bonfire and Full Auto before entire spawns +4/8 are reduced to a boss or two. 

 

If anything I'd like to see slow dot powers revamped entirely to very fast dots or direct damage. 

[Leogunner]

51 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Saying this now so it’s not a shock when it testing, the DoT will be over a long period of time, likely 15 seconds. It will likely be a fast ticker, though.

Will it have a 15sec -ToHit debuff?  I think that'd be a nice addition to have.

 

Having a lot of burst damage (what people are arguing for to oppose the DoT) even on a team isn't necessary.  People keep saying "the team will have killed off the foes by the time..." and that's kind of the point.  DoTs are there to kill off foes that survive with a sliver of health.  When a fire corruptor dropps a Rain of Fire and Fire Ball but some of the minions are left with a 1/5 of health while the little bit of fire DoT is inching them closer, that's what DoTs are there for.

 

And if you want burst damage, just put procs in it.  There are 4 available to put in it...5 if you put that ToHit debuff in there.

 

Since the damage is over a Dot, how about a name change?  Dark Decay?  I never was a big fan of using Equilibrium as it's not very "dark" lol

[Blastit]

6 minutes ago, Neogumbercules said:

I think it's important to remember that a power has to be exciting and feel impactful and hit those dopemine receptors that we're all feeding to still be a good power. 

 

We can give DE a 15 second dot, and then math out that over the course of a standard radio mission it's output is roughly equivalent to Atom Smasher, but what power is better to a player? Personally I'd go Atom Smasher every time.

 

It's still a video game that we're playing here and long, slow dots are lame. This game is closer than its ever been to an ARPG like Diablo 3 and the fun of those games is blowing up monsters. Why would I ever fire off DE when my whole team just opened with Radial Ion Final Judgement and everything is dead? My AR blaster has the same problem. Flamethrower is not touched on teams. I'm lucky to get out Bonfire and Full Auto before entire spawns +4/8 are reduced to a boss or two. 

 

If anything I'd like to see slow dot powers revamped entirely to very fast dots or direct damage. 

Balancing around incarnate powers is a bad idea. Everything is lacklustre compared to incarnate powers.

[Neogumbercules]

3 minutes ago, Blastit said:

Balancing around incarnate powers is a bad idea. Everything is lacklustre compared to incarnate powers.

Designing (or redesigning, in this case) a power in a vacuum and refusing to take into account the way the meta of CoH gameplay has evolved is equally a bad approach. Besides I wasn't referring strictly to balancing this attack to incarnate powers, but recognizing that new and redesigned abilities need to be designed to co-exist in a very fast paced environment. Slot dots, I argue, are poor fits. 

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Saying this now so it’s not a shock when it testing, the DoT will be over a long period of time, likely 15 seconds. It will likely be a fast ticker, though.

Unless this thing ends up being the meatiest DoT in the entire game, I already don't like it.

 

That is way too long. I think you are over-complicating this.

Edited March 1, 2020 by ScarySai

[Gobbledigook]

58 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

They're already pushing it, but this suggestion is WAY to much breaking of the cottage rule, and without necessity.

I don't see why. Its still functioning as a fear but with endurance added as a side effect to feared foes. AoE instead of single target. But it was just an idea to open up other ideas etc.

 

A long Dot would not be good. Upfront damage followed by a short duration dot would be ok though.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[KelvinKole]

22 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

A long Dot would not be good. Upfront damage followed by a short duration dot would be ok though.

I tend to agree with this. But based on captains previous comment that the we would be going back to fully enhanceable damage then we'll be back at the level of damage we saw in version 1, and that's probably best applied as a long duration dot.

 

1. Keep half the damage enhanceable and the other half based on endurance upon activation. The portion based on damage would be the burst, follow by a DoT based on endurance.

 

2. Go back to fully enhanceable damage but spread it all out over a DoT. 

[KelvinKole]

43 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Since the damage is over a Dot, how about a name change?  Dark Decay?  I never was a big fan of using Equilibrium as it's not very "dark" lol

How about Dark Consumption? 😁

[WindDemon21]

2 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Thank you. I was going to post about how the feedback was getting far too stubborn.  

Except while I have explained how it's the perfect solution and would fix all these issues it's been mainly ignored this thread. People are responding to earlier posts and not seeing the solution that's right in front of their faces.

 

I'm also already using a similar style on a dom where sleet/ ice slick are on 90s base timers and ice storm is 120s base and it is the most annoying thing to deal with having them not line up.

 

For reasons listed my proposal fixes all the issues that are being discussed in this thread. I'm still waiting on powerhouse to reply/ test it at 60s base recharge.

 

Ignoring the suggestion and commenting on the postings themselves does not help discuss the actual topic at hand I was suggesting, which doing so would have resulted in a much more progressive thread.

Edited March 1, 2020 by WindDemon21