Focused Feedback: New IO Sets (Build 3)

[Parabola]

11 minutes ago, Mikewho said:

I have no argument with that. However, I feel the new sets simply fall below that threshold for ranged characters. In the current system, for better or worse, taking a set with no recharge has to have a huge benefit to be at all worth it. I'll just never take Shrapnel, because it has no recharge and not enough payoff from the other bonuses to make up for that. And Bombardment with only AOE defense has not enough benefit for ranged characters. I could have totally understood reducing the ranged defense it originally had. But changing it to AOE has made it a melee-only thing. Which would be fine, if Shrapnel had some recharge (even just a little).

But as mentioned there aren't a huge number of sets that have both defence and recharge on them (and I suspect those that do exist like Obliteration are bad for the balance of the game). The ATO sets are complete outliers because they are pay to win purple sets, and only one of the regular purple sets has both (I like to think the dev that did that has the same soft spot for confuse powers that I do!). In general outside of these you are either slotting for recharge or defence but not both at the same time.

 

It's a difficult balancing act. Taoe sets are predominantly going to be used on ranged characters where in general the most valuable defence bonus is ranged. In addition pretty much all characters chase global recharge (I've never seen a build that doesn't; even in the rare cases hasten isn't used global recharge is always useful). Therefore a set that has both ranged defence and recharge on it is simply going to be better than any other option is most cases. If Bombardment went live with 5% recharge and even 2.5% ranged defence I'd never slot Positrons Blast again, and any other new taoe set probably wouldn't get a look in either. They are trying to create more options where we a bit limited but the only way to do that is to create sets with roughly similar utility. 

 

That's why I kind of like the idea of ranged defence and range enhancement on Broadside (nee Shrapnel), the decent recharge bonus on Positron's Blast and a lower recharge bonus and some other flavour of defence on Bombardment. I'm pretty sure that s/l would be more useful to everyone including ranged characters than aoe so that might be one way of spicing Bombardment up a bit. Then we would have different options depending on what the build priority is with no obvious 'one set to rule them all'.

 

At the risk of going on and on this is highlighting a problem with the whole IO system though. At present the only bonuses worth chasing are defence and recharge. I've tried various oddball builds from all out res capping to building for max hp and regeneration and nothing is even remotely as effective as piling on the defence and recharge. It is a bit sad that the first thought when starting a build isn't 'ok what do my powers provide and what interesting things can I build on', it's always simply 'more defence, more recharge'. Therefore this entire conversation is revolving around just these couple of bonuses and is seeming a little binary as a result. Some say defence + recharge = too powerful, some say defence or recharge on their own = not powerful enough...

[Laenan]

I wonder if removing the recharge bonus would be a better option than swapping the range defense to AoE defense. We still have the Posi Blast set that has the recharge bonus, so maybe having the option for ranged defense without the recharge would be a nice addition.

[Mikewho]

14 minutes ago, parabola said:

But as mentioned there aren't a huge number of sets that have both defence and recharge on them (and I suspect those that do exist like Obliteration are bad for the balance of the game). The ATO sets are complete outliers because they are pay to win purple sets, and only one of the regular purple sets has both (I like to think the dev that did that has the same soft spot for confuse powers that I do!). In general outside of these you are either slotting for recharge or defence but not both at the same time.

 

It's a difficult balancing act. Taoe sets are predominantly going to be used on ranged characters where in general the most valuable defence bonus is ranged. In addition pretty much all characters chase global recharge (I've never seen a build that doesn't; even in the rare cases hasten isn't used global recharge is always useful). Therefore a set that has both ranged defence and recharge on it is simply going to be better than any other option is most cases. If Bombardment went live with 5% recharge and even 2.5% ranged defence I'd never slot Positrons Blast again, and any other new taoe set probably wouldn't get a look in either. They are trying to create more options where we a bit limited but the only way to do that is to create sets with roughly similar utility. 

 

That's why I kind of like the idea of ranged defence and range enhancement on Broadside (nee Shrapnel), the decent recharge bonus on Positron's Blast and a lower recharge bonus and some other flavour of defence on Bombardment. I'm pretty sure that s/l would be more useful to everyone including ranged characters than aoe so that might be one way of spicing Bombardment up a bit. Then we would have different options depending on what the build priority is with no obvious 'one set to rule them all'.

 

At the risk of going on and on this is highlighting a problem with the whole IO system though. At present the only bonuses worth chasing are defence and recharge. I've tried various oddball builds from all out res capping to building for max hp and regeneration and nothing is even remotely as effective as piling on the defence and recharge. It is a bit sad that the first thought when starting a build isn't 'ok what do my powers provide and what interesting things can I build on', it's always simply 'more defence, more recharge'. Therefore this entire conversation is revolving around just these couple of bonuses and is seeming a little binary as a result. Some say defence + recharge = too powerful, some say defence or recharge on their own = not powerful enough...

Agreed on this being a problem with how much more powerful defense and recharge are than anything else. I actually have no problem with a set like Shrapnel having no recharge at all, as long as it has something very compelling to make up for it. For example, give a little more defense, or give a large chunk of HP. As it stands, it's just not good enough (not trying to be a downer here, I just want these new sets to actually be competitive, otherwise it's wasted effort and everyone will keep slotting Ragnarok and Posi instead).

[Bopper]

32 minutes ago, Laenan said:

I wonder if removing the recharge bonus would be a better option than swapping the range defense to AoE defense. We still have the Posi Blast set that has the recharge bonus, so maybe having the option for ranged defense without the recharge would be a nice addition.

You just described Shrapnel, only Shrapnel is likely going to get the Thunderstrike treatment for double range defense bonuses.

 

As for the arguments I'm seeing with Positron vs Bombardment in regards to recharge, sure PB gives 6.25% vs 5%, but Bombardment gets 85.7% recharge in enhancements versus 26.5%.

[Parabola]

12 minutes ago, Mikewho said:

Agreed on this being a problem with how much more powerful defense and recharge are than anything else. I actually have no problem with a set like Shrapnel having no recharge at all, as long as it has something very compelling to make up for it. For example, give a little more defense, or give a large chunk of HP. As it stands, it's just not good enough (not trying to be a downer here, I just want these new sets to actually be competitive, otherwise it's wasted effort and everyone will keep slotting Ragnarok and Posi instead).

I'm actually very excited for Broadside (nee Shrapnel - not giving up!) as the combination of ranged defence and range enhancement creates a very attractive option for slotting into cones. Taoes are an interesting category of power in that they have two different types that work quite differently. I can't think of any other type of power that has this.

 

Speaking of the range enhancement though ...

 

On 3/5/2020 at 5:50 AM, The Curator said:

We could swap the first bonus between Bombardment and Shrapnel, but I actually feel like having a set with a range bonus and one with range enhancement makes more sense. We can change Shrapnel's to include more range this way:

• Proposal A:
  • Change Dmg/End/Rech to End/Rech/Range
  • Change Acc/End/Rech to Acc/End/Rech/Range
  • Post ED: 66.3% Acc, 97.49% Dmg, 39.8% End, 85.75% Rech, 24.06% Range
  • Changes from current version: -2.6% Acc, -3.18% Dmg, -2.60% End, -2.32% Rech, +24.06% Range
• Proposal B:
  • Change Dmg to Dmg/End
  • Change Dmg/End/Rech to End/Rech/Range
  • Change Acc/End/Rech to Acc/Rech/Range
  • Post ED: 68.9% Acc, 95.11% Dmg, 47.7% End, 88.07% Rech, 26.5% Range
  • Changes from current version: -5.57% Dmg, +5.30% End, +25.6% Range

 

I've just been having a look in mids at my usual slotting for a cone that needs range - 5 Positron's Blast and a Range IO. Post ED that gives 47.7% Acc, 99.08% Dmg, 47.7%End, 41.29% Range, 26.5% Rech. I'm wondering if we can get more range enhancement into Broadside sacrificing recharge possibly? As it stands unless I am desperate for that ranged defence and absolutely cannot get it from any other source I'll be sticking with my current slotting which would be a bit of a shame. Might also be an argument for it having a +range global bonus on top?

[Bopper]

 

Double post removed

Edited March 6, 2020 by Bopper

[Bopper]

9 minutes ago, parabola said:

Broadside (nee Shrapnel - not giving up!)

ssssshhhhhhhh....it's Air Interdiction 😛

 

11 minutes ago, parabola said:

've just been having a look in mids at my usual slotting for a cone that needs range - 5 Positron's Blast and a Range IO. Post ED that gives 47.7% Acc, 99.08% Dmg, 47.7%End, 41.29% Range, 26.5% Rech. I'm wondering if we can get more range enhancement into Broadside sacrificing recharge possibly?

You could ask Curator to reconsider swapping the 2-slot bonuses between Air Interdiction (nee Shrapnel) with Bombardment to provide it with the 5% range bonus. Bombardment would get regeneration.

[Zeraphia]

All I have to say is... Really? More people asked to KEEP the bonuses. AOE defense is of limited utility. Ranged damage dealers (the ones who typically use TAOEs) are getting shortsighted once more. Obliteration exists, which gives 3.75% melee defense for melee characters and recharge. I can understand that being "pure ranged" and taking flight powers or being at a constant distance can make melee irrelevant to some extent (so ranged defense is more valuable to them versus a melee who will take both ranged and melee damage), but in all sincerity... really? Is it truly that "broken"? It is so much harder to chase ranged defense and the other sets for ranged damage are so much more costly and lackluster than chasing melee defense values versus ranged defense values. That said, sure, change the ranged defense bonus to 2.25%, but don't totally slash all of its greatness. I was really looking forward to this set, and now it seems like a travesty. I was also looking forward to the DC changes and I was OK with even the 2nd change despite being somewhat lackluster for what it was and now... that's being shelved as well. The original changes were positive and fine, I don't understand why these seem so "broken" relative to the way the game is now. Yes, they were powerful, yes they were going to shift somethings, but change can be good, I don't think any of these changes were going to completely rectify the game and automatically make anything in particular "so powerful."

[Vanden]

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

You could ask Curator to reconsider swapping the 2-slot bonuses between Air Interdiction (nee Shrapnel) with Bombardment to provide it with the 5% range bonus. Bombardment would get regeneration.

I'd really like to keep the +Range bonus in Bombardment. I don't see why More Dakka (née Shrapnel) couldn't have a +Range set bonus in addition to Bombardment, rather than instead of.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

I'd really like to keep the +Range bonus in Bombardment. I don't see why More Dakka (née Shrapnel) couldn't have a +Range set bonus in addition to Bombardment, rather than instead of.

I can see the reasoning both ways. It offers those who want Bombardment to have an Avenue for range enhancement through global, while offering Air Interdiction (nee Shrapnel 😉 a direct line to +range via enhancement. Either way, I like the sets where they're at. At this point my suggestions are really just fine tuning and wishful thinking 

[DR_Mechano]

6 hours ago, parabola said:

That's why I kind of like the idea of ranged defence and range enhancement on Broadside (nee Shrapnel), the decent recharge bonus on Positron's Blast and a lower recharge bonus and some other flavour of defence on Bombardment. I'm pretty sure that s/l would be more useful to everyone including ranged characters than aoe so that might be one way of spicing Bombardment up a bit. Then we would have different options depending on what the build priority is with no obvious 'one set to rule them all'.

As mentioned AoE defense is EVERYWHERE. There are tons of sets that offer ridiculous amounts of AoE defense (5 slotting Aegis gets you like 6-7% AoE defense thanks to its bonuses. Most of the winter IO sets have fire/cold defense as their 6th slot which means they give 2.5% AoE defense, hell there's one set where if it's six slot it gives you 7.5% AoE defense) so chances are Bombardment is going to be relegated to convertor fodder and thus is basically kinda freaking pointless. If I want recharge I'll just slot Positron since it gives MOAR recharge. I do agree that adding perhaps a large +energy/negative (instead of smashing/lethal) resist bonus (which are surprisingly hard to come by) as its sixth slot rather than AoE defense might actually make it be more interesting

 

Currently the Targeted AoE IO options are literally just Positron if you're feeling cheap (or already slotted the purple set in another Targeted AoE), Winter IO if you need more Fire/cold (or AoE) defense and purple if you've got the cash to splash for it.

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

I do agree that adding perhaps a large +energy/negative (instead of smashing/lethal) resist bonus (which are surprisingly hard to come by) as its sixth slot rather than AoE defense might actually make it be more interesting

I do agree with the difficulty of finding good E/N resistance. I'm not sure if people would prefer the 4.5% E/N resistance more than 3.75% AoE resistance, but either is fine by me.

[siolfir]

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I do agree with the difficulty of finding good E/N resistance. I'm not sure if people would prefer the 4.5% E/N resistance more than 3.75% AoE resistance, but either is fine by me.

 

I like the E/N resistance idea, but think that I would rather have the S/L defense referenced here:

On 3/5/2020 at 1:41 AM, The Curator said:

Regarding Bombardment, is ranged def is too much and aoe defense is too little, what about smashing/lethal/melee defense? Sounds odd for a ranged set, but there's nowhere else to go. 3.75 sm/l + 1.875% melee would at least put the focus in the damage type. The existing bonus could also be flipped to 3.75% fire/cold + 1.875% AOE.

You could build for typed defense without having to throw slots into powers you'll never use (for Kinetic Combat) since S/L defense would be just as useful for most attacks, and for sets that perform best while in melee range (Kinetics, for example) it will help more than ranged defense.

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, siolfir said:

 

I like the E/N resistance idea, but think that I would rather have the S/L defense referenced here:

You could build for typed defense without having to throw slots into powers you'll never use (for Kinetic Combat) since S/L defense would be just as useful for most attacks, and for sets that perform best while in melee range (Kinetics, for example) it will help more than ranged defense.

It still feels like an odd pairing (melee in a range attack) that also borders on the same problem of pairing range with recharge. It would make the pairing too popular/OP with build designs. The 2nd most common route used for softcapped defense by ranged characters is S/L defense, while this also brings in Melee characters who will chase the pairing with their TAoE epics.

 

If AoE defense is still so unpopular, perhaps it could be negotiated to have the recharge bumped up to the 6th spot but increased to 7.5%, while bringing the AoE to the 5th slot and decreasing its value to 2.5% (or change it to EN resistance of 3%).

[Vanden]

37 minutes ago, siolfir said:

I like the E/N resistance idea, but think that I would rather have the S/L defense referenced here:

You could build for typed defense without having to throw slots into powers you'll never use (for Kinetic Combat) since S/L defense would be just as useful for most attacks, and for sets that perform best while in melee range (Kinetics, for example) it will help more than ranged defense.

I missed @The Curator floating that option, otherwise I would've expressed my support for it.

[Zeraphia]

22 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It still feels like an odd pairing (melee in a range attack) that also borders on the same problem of pairing range with recharge. It would make the pairing too popular/OP with build designs. The 2nd most common route used for softcapped defense by ranged characters is S/L defense, while this also brings in Melee characters who will chase the pairing with their TAoE epics.

 

If AoE defense is still so unpopular, perhaps it could be negotiated to have the recharge bumped up to the 6th spot but increased to 7.5%, while bringing the AoE to the 5th slot and decreasing its value to 2.5% (or change it to EN resistance of 3%).

I'd agree with this but honestly, if they're not going to give ranged defense because it's "too good," I'd rather get any one of these instead of the AOE defense:

 

-E/N (like you said)

-Damage buff bonus

-+Range

-Health bonus

-S/L/M defense

-T/P resist

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, 33053222 said:

I'd agree with this but honestly, if they're not going to give ranged defense because it's "too good," I'd rather get any one of these instead of the AOE defense:

 

-E/N (like you said)

-Damage buff bonus

-+Range

-Health bonus

-S/L/M defense

-T/P resist

I think you already get +Range in the 2-slot. As I think about it, I am liking the idea of just boosting the recharge and bringing in the E/N resist. Since it was proposed as being removed from Shrapnel (nee Air Interdiction), it would make for a nice home there.

 

It's been a short while since we've heard much from the devs on this, but I'm assuming they are close to releasing a new build specific to IO sets.

[Zeraphia]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

I think you already get +Range in the 2-slot. As I think about it, I am liking the idea of just boosting the recharge and bringing in the E/N resist. Since it was proposed as being removed from Shrapnel (nee Air Interdiction), it would make for a nice home there.

 

It's been a short while since we've heard much from the devs on this, but I'm assuming they are close to releasing a new build specific to IO sets.

You are correct, I thought people were speaking of no +range in Bombardment as opposed to Shrapnel for bonuses. I'm sure this is the case as well. Truthfully, I may end up slotting mostly Shrapnel's over Bombardments once these go live assuming these are the final variations (which I don't think they are).

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, 33053222 said:

You are correct, I thought people were speaking of no +range in Bombardment as opposed to Shrapnel for bonuses. I'm sure this is the case as well. Truthfully, I may end up slotting mostly Shrapnel's over Bombardments once these go live assuming these are the final variations (which I don't think they are).

If Shrapnel had the +Range bonus too, I think I would go that way too, as I feel like there are plenty of ways to chase recharge and I would love to try out a cone heavy set like Sonic or Dark. At the same time, the extra range does appeal to cone users, the extra range in general makes for desirable uses. So I'll probably use it on any blast set. Overall, I'm just glad there will be new options with new flavors. For so long it's been 5 piece PB and a Ragnorak. Now, I could go either way with PB, Bombardment, amd Shrapnel depending on my build needs.

[DR_Mechano]

31 minutes ago, 33053222 said:

I'd agree with this but honestly, if they're not going to give ranged defense because it's "too good," I'd rather get any one of these instead of the AOE defense:

 

-E/N (like you said)

-Damage buff bonus

-+Range

-Health bonus

-S/L/M defense

-T/P resist

My personal votes would be either E/N resist (since twas my idea and there aren't actually very many sets which offer E/N resist tis a very rare set bonus to see) or S/L/M defense OR @Bopper suggestion of raising the recharge to the 6th slot, making it +7.5% recharge and putting in like +2.5% energy/negative resistance as the new 5th slot (effectively stripping out the AoE defense entirely, unlike his original suggestion).

 

This gives it higher recharge than Positron's blast BUT at the cost of taking up 1 more slot (since most people only 5 slot Positron, leaving out the damage proc) so people have to weigh up whether the extra +1.25% recharge is worth the extra slot.

This would give us:

Positron's blast: Cheap, cheerful 5 slot option, lowest recharge (out of the sets that give +recharge) but also the cheapest and the best for slotting economy when builds are tight (and you if already have the Purple set slotted).

Shrapnel: The Thunderstrike of Targeted AoE sets. If you're build is willing or just needs some ranged defense this would be the set.

Bombardment: Offers more recharge than Positron at the cost of requiring a 6 slot and offers E/N resistance for people needed to build that.

Ragnarok: Naturally what you go for if you want the highest recharge bonus for the least amount of slots.

Superior Frozen Blast: If you REALLY need that AoE defense. The entire set offers +7.5% AoE and Fire/Cold defense or just +5% AoE defense for a 5th slot.

 

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

My personal votes would be either E/N resist (since twas my idea and there aren't actually very many sets which offer E/N resist tis a very rare set bonus to see) or S/L/M defense OR @Bopper suggestion of raising the recharge to the 6th slot, making it +7.5% recharge and putting in like +2.5% energy/negative resistance as the new 5th slot (effectively stripping out the AoE defense entirely, unlike his original suggestion).

 

This gives it higher recharge than Positron's blast BUT at the cost of taking up 1 more slot (since most people only 5 slot Positron, leaving out the damage proc) so people have to weigh up whether the extra +1.25% recharge is worth the extra slot.

This would give us:

Positron's blast: Cheap, cheerful 5 slot option, lowest recharge (out of the sets that give +recharge) but also the cheapest and the best for slotting economy when builds are tight (and you if already have the Purple set slotted).

Shrapnel: The Thunderstrike of Targeted AoE sets. If you're build is willing or just needs some ranged defense this would be the set.

Bombardment: Offers more recharge than Positron at the cost of requiring a 6 slot and offers E/N resistance for people needed to build that.

Ragnarok: Naturally what you go for if you want the highest recharge bonus for the least amount of slots.

Superior Frozen Blast: If you REALLY need that AoE defense. The entire set offers +7.5% AoE and Fire/Cold defense or just +5% AoE defense for a 5th slot.

 

Those options would be perfect as you described. Small correction though, there is no 2.5% resist option. It would be either 3% or 2.25%. I used 3% EN resist and 7.5% recharge because those add up to the same scalars as a 5% recharge and 3.75% AoE defense (x2 in the 5th slot, x3 in the 6th slot)

[DR_Mechano]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Those options would be perfect as you described. Small correction though, there is no 2.5% resist option. It would be either 3% or 2.25%. I used 3% EN resist and 7.5% recharge because those add up to the same scalars as a 5% recharge and 3.75% AoE defense (x2 in the 5th slot, x3 in the 6th slot)

That would be fine by me!

[Bopper]

@The Curator

Personally, I would still like to vote for the swap of the 2-slot between Bombardment and Shrapnel (thus making it the range enhancement king). However, I know you prefer it the way it is and I think folks mostly don't care either way. So I present to you this proposal that feels like it satisfies most of the community while also satisfying the Homecoming team.

 

Proposals:

Shrapnel (*cough* Air Interdiction *cough*)

Dmg/End

Acc/Dmg

Dmg/Rech

Acc/Dmg/Rech

End/Rech/Range

Acc/Rech/Range

 

Post ED: 68.9% Acc, 95.11% Dmg, 47.7% End, 88.07% Rech, 26.5% Range

• 2: Improves your Regeneration by 10%
• 3: Increases energy and negative energy defense by 1.875% and ranged defense by 0.9375%
• 4: Increases damage by 2%
• 5: Improves the accuracy of all of your powers by 9%
• 6: Increases ranged defense by 3.13% and energy and negative energy defense by 1.565%

 

Bombardment

*No change in enhancements*

Damage

Acc/Rech/End

Dmg/Rech

Acc/Dmg/Rech

Acc/Dmg/Rech/End

Chance for Fire Damage (3.5 PPM)

 

Post ED: 61% Acc, 96.3% Dmg, 39.7% End, 85.7% Rech

• 2: 5% Increased Range
• 3: 2.25% Smashing / Lethal Resistance + 3.75% Mez Resistance
• 4: 7% Accuracy
• 5: 3% Energy / Negative Energy Resistance + 5% Mez Resistance
• 6: 7.5% Recharge

[Vanden]

34 minutes ago, Bopper said:

 

Bombardment

*No change in enhancements*

Damage

Acc/Rech/End

Dmg/Rech

Acc/Dmg/Rech

Acc/Dmg/Rech/End

Chance for Fire Damage (3.5 PPM)

 

Post ED: 61% Acc, 96.3% Dmg, 39.7% End, 85.7% Rech

• 2: 5% Increased Range
• 3: 2.25% Smashing / Lethal Resistance + 3.75% Mez Resistance
• 4: 7% Accuracy
• 5: 3% Energy / Negative Energy Resistance + 5% Mez Resistance
• 6: 7.5% Recharge

Not a fan of this option; Recharge is much more desirable to a wider variety of builds than a resistance bonus, so the set loses a lot of flexibility by putting the recharge in the sixth slot. In particular, it's hard on anyone using Energy Torrent or Explosive Blast, or any AoE Arachnos Mace blasts, since those powers basically have a Sudden Acceleration tax you have to pay, so the only way to still get a recharge bonus out of them would be to use the crappy Positron's Blast, or splurge on Ragnarok.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Vanden

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Not a fan of this option; Recharge is much more desirable to a wider variety of builds than a resistance bonus, so the set loses a lot of flexibility by putting the recharge in the sixth slot. In particular, it's hard on anyone using Energy Torrent or Explosive Blast, or any AoE Arachnos Mace blasts, since those powers basically have a Sudden Acceleration tax you have to pay, so the only way to still get a recharge bonus out of them would be to use the crappy Positron's Blast, or splurge on Ragnarok.

So you prefer a 5% recharge in 5 slots as opposed to 7.5% in 6 slots? Seems more efficient to get an extra 2.5% with one more slot, and to use Positron if going for 5 slots.