Focused Feedback: New IO Sets (Build 3)

[oedipus_tex]

Hi dev team, thanks for sharing the updates. I appreciate y'all asking for feedback. Looks like you've been working hard.

 

RE: Synapses Shock.

I feel like I am being evil by harping on this so my apologies if I seem like I'm rattling your cage. It looks like you stuck to your guns on the low damage. I already had a say and I don't want to badger y'all so I won't mention it again after this. 🙂However, if the set goes live like this it is something I will see people slotting and will have to inform them in my build feedback to slot something else. It's designed for a hypothetical power that deals damage but where endurance drain is more important than the damage. I'm drawing a blank. I can't think of a power like that. Electric Fences for Controllers and Dominators maybe? But there are better options there.

 

You usually have your pure endurance drain powers, and you have your attacks that happen to do endurance drain. This set belongs in a power that deals enough damage that you want to slot some, but not as much as endurance drain. Meanwhile the proc has nothing to do with a damage power. It's best slotted in a power like Stamina or Quick Recovery. The Run Speed proc even gives additional End Mod rather than Accuracy or Damage so it seems like it was designed for those powers rather than an attack. So unfortunately I will be giving this set a pass on my characters, the opportunity cost is too high.

 

Verdict: I expect to see people slotting the run proc and not the rest of the set. 

 

 

RE: Power Transfer.

Better than Synapses Shock. The proc is at least relevant to a blast attack, altho like we discussed I was wishing for a damage proc. It can't be a damage proc for technical reasons, so that's fine--you're working with the Resources you have, which I appreciate. To get to the good stuff you need to slot 6 slots which limits the ability to slot procs from other sets. I'd still rather slot Positron's Blast or the new Bombardment in AoEs because then I can slip in two damage procs in the power. 

 

Verdict: Not bad. Electric sets are still paying a price for slotting their endurance drain though. Slotting this loses you out on two potential damage procs in a targeted AoE. I appreciate that you have constraints on the design though.

 

 

RE Preemptive Optimization

The change from Range to Accuracy makes this much more useful.

 

Verdict: A nice but not earthshattering addition to the End Mod sets.

 

 

RE: Bombardment.

I think you made a wise decision nerfing this versus version 2. Like we talked about in the previous thread, sets that have both repeatableglobal Recharge and Ranged defense have the potential to create tank mages, even moreso than we already are. The ability to 5 slot this set would have resulted in +25 Recharge +18.75 Ranged defense with no challenge to slotting. The Recharge is lower than Posi but the stats better and you get S/L resist for your troubles.

 

Verdict: Adds some variety. No longer a Monty Haul set that provided a dragon's den worth of enhancements.

 

 

RE: Shrapnel

This is the only in game option that provides Ranged defense from a targeted AoE power, so will always be useful. Very nice. 

 

Verdict: Does what it needs to and is alignment with similar powers in other sets.

[The Curator]

Let's see if we can make some changes that leave more people happy here. This is just proposals being written down while looking at the spreadsheets.

• Bombardment (Proposal A)
  • Change Acc/Dmg/Rech to Dmg/End/Rech, and Acc/Dmg/End/Rech to Acc/Dmg/Rech.
    • New set pieces: Dmg, Dmg/Rech, Acc/End/Rech, Acc/Dmg/Rech, Dmg/End/Rech, Proc.
    • Post ED: 42.4% Acc, 96.7% Dmg, 42.4% End, 88.07% Rech.
    • Change from current version: -18.6% Acc, +0.39% Dmg, +2.6% End, +2.32% Rech
  • Increase fifth set bonus to 6.25% recharge.
  • This trades some accuracy to bring the recharge back to the first revision.
• Bombardment (Proposal B)
  • Change Acc/End/Rech to Acc/Rech.
    • New set pieces: Dmg, Dmg/Rech, Acc/Rech, Acc/Dmg/Rech, Dmg/End/Rech, Proc.
    • Post ED: 66.3% Acc, 96.31% Dmg, 18.6% End, 89.96% Rech.
    • Change from current version: +5.3% Acc, -21.2% End, +4.21% Rech
  • Increase fifth set bonus to 6.25% recharge.
  • This trades some endurance reduction to bring the recharge back to the first revision.
• Shrapnel
  • Remove the Resistance bonus, split the Defense bonus, and increase the damage bonus. The new bonuses would look like this:
    • 2: Improves your Regeneration by 10%.
    • 3: Increases energy and negative energy defense by 1.25% and ranged defense by 0.625%.
    • 4:  Increases damage by 3%.
    • 5: Improves the accuracy of all of your powers by 9%.
    • 6: Increases ranged defense by 3.13% and energy and negative energy defense by 1.565%.
  • This makes it possible to get some Ranged Defense by 3-slotting this set, and leaves the option to fully slot it if you want to get all of it, making this set the choice for characters building towards Ranged Defense.
  • The 0.625%/3.13% split was chosen so this set could stack with Thunderstrike bonuses without triggering the rule of 5; that set uses a 1.25%/2.5% split.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

RE: Synapses Shock

Honestly, who all is going to 6 slot it? Even so, it can only be 6 slotted once (I'll probably put it in stamina). I think most with a damaging endurance drain/gain attack will 5 slot it with SS for the recharge, then use the damage/endmod from Power Transfer to fill out the last slot if they want to hit 91.8% in both damage and endmod.

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, The Curator said:

Let's see if we can make some changes that leave more people happy here. This is just proposals being written down while looking at the spreadsheets.

• Bombardment (Proposal A)
  • Change Acc/Dmg/Rech to Dmg/End/Rech, and Acc/Dmg/End/Rech to Acc/Dmg/Rech.
    • New set pieces: Dmg, Dmg/Rech, Acc/End/Rech, Acc/Dmg/Rech, Dmg/End/Rech, Proc.
    • Post ED: 42.4% Acc, 96.7% Dmg, 42.4% End, 88.07% Rech.
    • Change from current version: -18.6% Acc, +0.39% Dmg, +2.6% End, +2.32% Rech
  • Increase fifth set bonus to 6.25% recharge.
  • This trades some accuracy to bring the recharge back to the first revision.
• Bombardment (Proposal B)
  • Change Acc/End/Rech to Acc/Rech.
    • New set pieces: Dmg, Dmg/Rech, Acc/Rech, Acc/Dmg/Rech, Dmg/End/Rech, Proc.
    • Post ED: 66.3% Acc, 96.31% Dmg, 18.6% End, 89.96% Rech.
    • Change from current version: +5.3% Acc, -21.2% End, +4.21% Rech
  • Increase fifth set bonus to 6.25% recharge.
  • This trades some endurance reduction to bring the recharge back to the first revision.
• Shrapnel
  • Remove the Resistance bonus, split the Defense bonus, and increase the damage bonus. The new bonuses would look like this:
    • 2: Improves your Regeneration by 10%.
    • 3: Increases energy and negative energy defense by 1.25% and ranged defense by 0.625%.
    • 4:  Increases damage by 3%.
    • 5: Improves the accuracy of all of your powers by 9%.
    • 6: Increases ranged defense by 3.13% and energy and negative energy defense by 1.565%.
  • This makes it possible to get some Ranged Defense by 3-slotting this set, and leaves the option to fully slot it if you want to get all of it, making this set the choice for characters building towards Ranged Defense.
  • The 0.625%/3.13% split was chosen so this set could stack with Thunderstrike bonuses without triggering the rule of 5; that set uses a 1.25%/2.5% split.

I like both proposals (A for Bombardment, specifically). The Shrapnel proposal is good, although it just feels like a TgtAoE Thunderstrike. I would like to see a proposal for Shrapnel being a set that would interest both Cone attacks and Range players in general by offering both a Range enhancement and a Range set bonus. Even the name Shrapnel makes me envision a cone, as it blasts out radially. Anyways, great work, overall, I like each of the sets.

[Major_Decoy]

 

8 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Honestly, who all is going to 6 slot it? Even so, it can only be 6 slotted once (I'll probably put it in stamina). I think most with a damaging endurance drain/gain attack will 5 slot it with SS for the recharge, then use the damage/endmod from Power Transfer to fill out the last slot if they want to hit 91.8% in both damage and endmod.

I have it six slotted on my Invulnerability/Dark Melee tank because I wanted the 4.5 negative energy resist.

[Bopper]

5 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

 

I have it six slotted on my Invulnerability/Dark Melee tank because I wanted the 4.5 negative energy resist.

That's fair. Put it in Dark Consumption? And that's a valid choice to make. Is the extra 21% damage I'm searching for in a power like Dark Consumption worth losing out on the 4.5% resistance? It's the choices we will make with the builds

Edited March 5, 2020 by Bopper

[Major_Decoy]

Yes. It was pretty good. The recharge on Dark Consumption is too slow for me to want to put the heal proc in there.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Major_Decoy said:

Yes. It was pretty good. The recharge on Dark Consumption is too slow for me to want to put the heal proc in there.

Certainly, and I believe the damage scale is 0.8, so buffing the damage an extra 20% isn't gonna be a game breaker. You made the right call

[The Curator]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

I like both proposals (A for Bombardment, specifically). The Shrapnel proposal is good, although it just feels like a TgtAoE Thunderstrike. I would like to see a proposal for Shrapnel being a set that would interest both Cone attacks and Range players in general by offering both a Range enhancement and a Range set bonus. Even the name Shrapnel makes me envision a cone, as it blasts out radially. Anyways, great work, overall, I like each of the sets.

We could swap the first bonus between Bombardment and Shrapnel, but I actually feel like having a set with a range bonus and one with range enhancement makes more sense. We can change Shrapnel's to include more range this way:

• Proposal A:
  • Change Dmg/End/Rech to End/Rech/Range
  • Change Acc/End/Rech to Acc/End/Rech/Range
  • Post ED: 66.3% Acc, 97.49% Dmg, 39.8% End, 85.75% Rech, 24.06% Range
  • Changes from current version: -2.6% Acc, -3.18% Dmg, -2.60% End, -2.32% Rech, +24.06% Range
• Proposal B:
  • Change Dmg to Dmg/End
  • Change Dmg/End/Rech to End/Rech/Range
  • Change Acc/End/Rech to Acc/Rech/Range
  • Post ED: 68.9% Acc, 95.11% Dmg, 47.7% End, 88.07% Rech, 26.5% Range
  • Changes from current version: -5.57% Dmg, +5.30% End, +25.6% Range

Edited March 5, 2020 by The Curator

[Troo]

Bombardment (Proposal A)

and the TgtAoE Thunderstrike is reasonable (Thunderstrike is not rare though, is it?)

[LQT]

8 hours ago, Vanden said:

I couldn't help but notice that Shrapnel is a Rare set, but it doesn't have a proc. Shouldn't it be an uncommon set then?

 

4 hours ago, JayboH said:

Curious also why Shrapnel is a Rare set instead of an Uncommon

> Shrapnel does not currently have a proc, as the intention is to provide solid enhancement values that make it worth six-slotting in order to reach the Ranged damage bonus. Its current post-ED values are 68.9% accuracy, 100.67% damage, 42.4% endurance reduction, and 88.07% recharge. If a proc is desired, it would not be a Damage proc (Bombardment already got one) but rather a Chance for Immobilize, Chance for Knockdown, Chance for -Defense or something else not exceedingly common.

 

That said the set is called Shrapnel, so either needs renamed to something along the lines of the Air Burst set or a proc IO related to a lethal DoT/chance of another aoe on target given how shrapnel functions under real terms.

As for a more on topic comment: Bombardment went from a set I was extremely interested in due to both somewhat rarer global bonuses like the range boost and for finally deviating from TAOEs already singular focus on AoE defense, [pvp set doesn't count as it's a pvp exclusive 4 set bonus], to a set I'm never going to look past the 2 set bonus for Frankenslotting if that. Now TAOEs stick with a singular set bonus despite others like in ranged having examples of AoE def amongst the many ranged bonuses.

Even looking at Shrapnel, which until it does gain a proc IO is now a TAOE Thunderstrike set, the remaining set bonuses suggest spending 5 slots to gain the defense bonus isn't worth while now as in many sets TAOEs are the minority of powers or from a more technical PoV less effective as many signature encounters in the game are ST fights or cleave situations at best with ST priority.

 

20 minutes ago, The Curator said:

split the Defense bonus

Again comparing to how this feels more and more like TAOE Thunderstrike, the bonuses for Thunderstrike are a 1:2 split of 1.25 ranged for 3 for and 2.5 ranged for 6. Having 3.13 is similar to some other uncommon sets however the differences there in terms of other set bonuses likely offsets the similarity as would be the case for something like Enfeebled Operation which has 2.5/1.5 S+L/M at 4 and 3.13/1.56 M/S+L at 6, but with a much lower recharge bonus. Even in other sets with multiple bonuses granting the same def types it's more often split into thirds rather than the 1/6th and 5/6ths as would be seen here. It feels too weighted towards the end with too much is being dumped in the last set bonus for a complimentary def bonus.

Regarding the proposals, proposal B would get my vote for Bombardment. Yes it was end heavy but that was entirely the point of a set with such good bonuses. You sacrifice the end costs for additional damage in general on an aoe and the set bonuses came at that extra cost.

[LQT]

20 minutes ago, The Curator said:

having a set with a range bonus and one with range enhancement makes more sense

 

Range enhancement already exists like that as Posi Blast: Dam/Range [26.5/15.9375 @50]. It's the 4th IO in the set and was probably part of the interest many had in Bombardment due to the set bonus being a global effect [something only existing in ATOs and PVP sets - making the increased end cost justified as well as balancing out the acc/rec values] rather than mirroring Posi Blast that way. Repeating a range IO will likely just lead to 5 slotting whichever taoe set and either Posi Dam/Range or Bombard/Shrapnel x/Range, whichever of the two ends up that way.

[The Curator]

34 minutes ago, LQT said:

Again comparing to how this feels more and more like TAOE Thunderstrike, the bonuses for Thunderstrike are a 1:2 split of 1.25 ranged for 3 for and 2.5 ranged for 6. Having 3.13 is similar to some other uncommon sets however the differences there in terms of other set bonuses likely offsets the similarity as would be the case for something like Enfeebled Operation which has 2.5/1.5 S+L/M at 4 and 3.13/1.56 M/S+L at 6, but with a much lower recharge bonus. Even in other sets with multiple bonuses granting the same def types it's more often split into thirds rather than the 1/6th and 5/6ths as would be seen here. It feels too weighted towards the end with too much is being dumped in the last set bonus for a complimentary def bonus.

Unfortunately the set bonuses come in a limited number of combinations, so for 3.75% defense it's either everything in one boost, 2.5/1.5 or 3.13/0.625. I assumed that being able to stack with Thunderstike was more important. I could change the third bonus to 0.94% ranged, leave the final bonus alone (increasing the set to 4.07% ranged defense total) and lower the damage and/or accuracy bonuses to compensate.

 

But yes, if the set is getting Range enhancement and lots of Range defense, it could use a different name. I'm open to suggestions.

 

Regarding Bombardment, is ranged def is too much and aoe defense is too little, what about smashing/lethal/melee defense? Sounds odd for a ranged set, but there's nowhere else to go. 3.75 sm/l + 1.875% melee would at least put the focus in the damage type. The existing bonus could also be flipped to 3.75% fire/cold + 1.875% AOE.

Edited March 5, 2020 by The Curator

[Bopper]

54 minutes ago, The Curator said:

Proposal B:

• Change Dmg to Dmg/End
• Change Dmg/End/Rech to Dmg/End/Rech
• Change Acc/End/Rech to Acc/Rech/Range
• Post ED: 68.9% Acc, 95.11% Dmg, 47.7% End, 88.07% Rech, 26.5% Range
• Changes from current version: -5.57% Dmg, +5.30% End, +25.6% Range

Personally, I really like this proposal. Excellent balance, and with the range defense in the set bonuses, I think plenty of builds could design around it. 

[Bopper]

21 minutes ago, The Curator said:

But yes, if the set is getting Range enhancement and lots of Range defense, it could use a different name. I'm open to suggestions.

Air Interdiction 

[Bopper]

31 minutes ago, The Curator said:

Regarding Bombardment, is ranged def is too much and aoe defense is too little, what about smashing/lethal/melee defense? Sounds odd for a ranged sets, but there's nowehre else to go. 3.75 sm/l + 1.875% melee would at least put the focus in the damage type. The existing bonus could also be flipped to 3.75% fire/cold + 1.875% AOE.

Smash/Lethal/Melee would be a very odd way to go. Obliteration is a Melee set where Melee defense makes sense. A Ranged AoE attack makes sense to have either a Range or AoE defense component. Since Range defense is going to Shrapnel (Air Interdiction?), settling for AoE defense seems to make sense. However, it will still be an unpopular bonus to chase.

 

How about a crazy idea...you know how Gaussian's 6th slot offers up defense for all the positional, how about flipping the 6th slot for Bombardment to do the same thing for types? 2.5% defense for S/L, E/N, F/C, while offering up 1.25% defense for M/R/AoE? Those numbers are just spitballing, not sure what would have to be done to make the numbers fair (hopefully without making a unique proc to prevent multiple sets)

Edited March 5, 2020 by Bopper

[Ariamaki]

My take on the Bombardment variants is that I like Option A, personally.

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, The Curator said:

We could swap the first bonus between Bombardment and Shrapnel, but I actually feel like having a set with a range bonus and one with range enhancement makes more sense. We can change Shrapnel's to include more range this way:

• Proposal A:
  • Change Dmg/End/Rech to End/Rech/Range
  • Change Acc/End/Rech to Acc/End/Rech/Range
  • Post ED: 66.3% Acc, 97.49% Dmg, 39.8% End, 85.75% Rech, 24.06% Range
  • Changes from current version: -2.6% Acc, -3.18% Dmg, -2.60% End, -2.32% Rech, +24.06% Range
• Proposal B:
  • Change Dmg to Dmg/End
  • Change Dmg/End/Rech to End/Rech/Range
  • Change Acc/End/Rech to Acc/Rech/Range
  • Post ED: 68.9% Acc, 95.11% Dmg, 47.7% End, 88.07% Rech, 26.5% Range
  • Changes from current version: -5.57% Dmg, +5.30% End, +25.6% Range

Proposal B looks the most appealing but either is great. I would think about swapping the global +range bonus as well but that might just me being greedy!

 

46 minutes ago, The Curator said:

Unfortunately the set bonuses come in a limited number of combinations, so for 3.75% defense it's either everything in one boost, 2.5/1.5 or 3.13/0.625. I assumed that being able to stack with Thunderstike was more important. I could change the third bonus to 0.94% ranged, leave the final bonus alone (increasing the set to 4.07% ranged defense total) and lower the damage and/or accuracy bonuses to compensate.

 

But yes, if the set is getting Range enhancement and lots of Range defense, it could use a different name. I'm open to suggestions.

 

Regarding Bombardment, is ranged def is too much and aoe defense is too little, what about smashing/lethal/melee defense? Sounds odd for a ranged set, but there's nowhere else to go. 3.75 sm/l + 1.875% melee would at least put the focus in the damage type. The existing bonus could also be flipped to 3.75% fire/cold + 1.875% AOE.

I quite like the ranged defence split. It certainly would help with the rule of 5 problem. Any build where I envisage using this set several times is going to be a ranged squishy of some sort and is going to be slotting several thunderstrike sets as well. 3.13/0.625 seems about right.

 

Agree about the name. Something with the word 'extension' or 'reach' or similar in it?

 

I can see some merit in s/l defence in bombardment. When I'm building any squishy they tend to go down one of two avenues. They are either ranged specialists and build hard for ranged defence or are taking an epic s/l shield and scrabble around to build on that. That often gets a bit ugly with muling kinetic combats in brawl and boxing because there aren't s/l options in ranged sets of any description. My blappers in particular would bite your hand off for a taoe set with both recharge and s/l defence in it (they don't need that +range global though ☺️).

[Mr. Vee]

10 minutes ago, parabola said:

Agree about the name. Something with the word 'extension' or 'reach' or similar in it?

Extended Reach-Around?

 

I think the newly proposed changes to bombardment and tba seem like good compromises. 

[LQT]

1 hour ago, The Curator said:

Unfortunately the set bonuses come in a limited number of combinations, so for 3.75% defense it's either everything in one boost, 2.5/1.5 or 3.13/0.625.

I get that as it's the existing values. What I was meaning was the 1.25 as the 4 set bonus and the 2.5 for the 6 set [with the appropriate e/n def values 2.5 at 4 and 1.25 at 6 as Thunderstrike does] seems like a more balanced choice for those who may only want [or are limited] to slot some of the set.

 

58 minutes ago, parabola said:

Agree about the name. Something with the word 'extension' or 'reach' or similar in it?

 

"Artillery" isn't used AFAIK and is generic enough to refer to "launch munitions far beyond the range and power of infantry firearms". As the type of munitions does vary the concept of artillery itself would encompass the act of the set rather than whatever powerset may be using it.

 

Additionally S/L in a range set sounds like something that may benefit existing melee ATs [def based ones especially] more than the ranged ATs since melee are able to stack more from their melee [and pbaoe] powers then smooth out any gaps with epic/patron pools and TAOEs using such a bonus. For ranged it would probably requiring shoehorning into cold/mace epic sets for the majority of a S/L build to then benefit from set bonuses granting additional values, which again would be more limiting on one "half" of the ATs than the other. Admittedly this is a choice someone makes when making designing their toon.

 

If ranged def is too high, as you've mentioned, then would lowering it be an option? Reduce 3.75 to something more balanced for the set but still keep at least one of the new TAOE set ideas with ranged def since both are now looking to go the way of another positional type when having ranged was one of the big appeals when it was first announced.
 

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

how about flipping the 6th slot for Bombardment to do the same thing for types? 2.5% defense for S/L, E/N, F/C, while offering up 1.25% defense for M/R/AoE?

This would likely only work under similar restrictions, so requiring one of the IOs to be unique as per Gaussian's and the BU proc. Otherwise every taoe a build has would probably be 6 slotted.

 

Although it does bring up the idea of maybe the unique/proc IO being entirely about range. It would prevent [extensive] Frankenslotting and carry the cost of missing out on the 6 set if someone did want to Frankenslot it into something else. As for what that power internal value would be the only suggestion I'd have there is for it to definitely exceed 16~% at 50 since that's what [the non unique] Posi Blast grants from it's Dam/Range IO, and probably to exceed the 25.5% a level 50 range IO grants if it were to be literally entirely about boosting range on the power and as well as being a unique IO.

[Parabola]

29 minutes ago, LQT said:

I get that as it's the existing values. What I was meaning was the 1.25 as the 4 set bonus and the 2.5 for the 6 set [with the appropriate e/n def values 2.5 at 4 and 1.25 at 6 as Thunderstrike does] seems like a more balanced choice for those who may only want [or are limited] to slot some of the set.

There is the rule of 5 problem if it ends up with the same values as thunderstrike though. Most builds I envisage slotting this set are also going to want to slot thunderstrike. I like either leaving it as a single 3.75 bonus or splitting it 3.13/0.625.

 

36 minutes ago, LQT said:

Additionally S/L in a range set sounds like something that may benefit existing melee ATs [def based ones especially] more than the ranged ATs since melee are able to stack more from their melee [and pbaoe] powers then smooth out any gaps with epic/patron pools and TAOEs using such a bonus. For ranged it would probably requiring shoehorning into cold/mace epic sets for the majority of a S/L build to then benefit from set bonuses granting additional values, which again would be more limiting on one "half" of the ATs than the other. Admittedly this is a choice someone makes when making designing their toon.

Whatever bonuses are decided upon they are always going to benefit some AT's, some powersets and some builds more than others. The trick is just to try to provide a range of reasonably balanced options so people can make what they will of it. In my view a ranged s/l option would be a good thing because it doesn't exist at all at the minute and building for s/l defence on ranged characters is a thing. The only time I've ever built for aoe defence is on a melee softcapping all positions so I don't see that as being as useful. Ranged characters are more limited in how much defence they can pick up and the choices always seem to boil down to ranged or s/l.

 

How about 'Cannonade' for the name of the new set?

[Parabola]

Barrage and Broadside would also fit.

[...]

Another option might be to keep the original bombardment, but make the proc unique. 

 

Leaves us with a great set and solves the stackability concern. 

[Bionic_Flea]

4 hours ago, The Curator said:

But yes, if the set is getting Range enhancement and lots of Range defense, it could use a different name. I'm open to suggestions.

Air Supremacy or Air Superiority.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_supremacy

[LQT]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Air Superiority

That's a power in the Flight Power Pool.