Buff +Recovery set bonuses

[SwitchFade]

Yeah but...

 

You down with OPP?!

[Vanden]

15 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Cute, but I wasn't the one who brought up toggles to begin with.

[Redlynne]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Cute, but I wasn't the one who brought up toggles to begin with.

11 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Combat Jumping, which is everyone's go to example of "a single cheap toggle" ... because IT IS "a single cheap toggle" (and you're welcome to refute that notion, but I wouldn't recommend it).

Can't say you weren't warned ...

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Redlynne said:

Can't say you weren't warned ...

I'm happy to debate the merits of my suggestion or the value of existing +Recovery set bonuses, but I'm gonna take a pass on arguing semantics.

[MunkiLord]

Nobody cares about Combat Jumping in the context of this discussion. It's not simply a cheap toggle, its cost is so low that it is irrelevant. The fact this has to be said is absurd.

 

Combat Jumping, easily the best power in the game, is a silly distraction to the topic at hand. 

[nzer]

15 hours ago, Redlynne said:

I'd say that going from a net negative of -0.07/s throughput to a net positive of +2.02/s throughput in the holistic context of an entire build plan WOULD (what did you call it?) "offset even a single cheap toggle" ... and I'm not even including the effect of procs for +Endurance here (which pushes things even further positive with Panacea and Performance Shifter procs).

Did I say end management is hard? Why on earth are you talking about Panacea and Performance Shifter when the discussion is about recovery set bonuses? You do realize that of the 2.02 net end/sec this build generates only 0.15 of it comes from recovery set bonuses, right?

 

I'm not even taking a side, I don't care about recovery set bonuses. I came to this thread to reword an obtuse analogy, and then to ask for clarification on the numbers you posted because they seemed to agree with @Vanden's assessment that recovery set bonuses are undertuned rather than refute it, and now you're ranting at me about how much end your build generates as if I've taken a side in some holy war.

4 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Is completely ignoring what people say fun for you? Combat Jumping isn't a good example of a cheap toggle in the context of this discussion, as at 0.07 end/sec it is almost always the cheapest toggle in a build by a significant margin. Hover, which is also usually the cheapest toggle in a build, costs nearly three times as much, and at 0.19 end/sec it is, in fact, not fully paid for by the 0.15 end/sec your MM build gets from recovery set bonuses.

 

Tell me, is Hover not considered a cheap toggle?

Edited March 7, 2020 by nzer

[Infinitum]

26 minutes ago, nzer said:

Did I say end management is hard? Why on earth are you talking about Panacea and Performance Shifter when the discussion is about recovery set bonuses? You do realize that of the 2.02 net end/sec this build generates only 0.15 of it comes from recovery set bonuses, right?

Because.... for the third time... if you have HUUGANTIC recovery set bonuses, once combined with the uncountable (im sure you can actually count them but its late and i dont wanna) other methods to manage endurance in this game, it makes the endurance bar Irrelevant at that point, and its already borderline irrelevant as it is now - which in turn is also why you cant talk about recovery bonuses and their effects without mentioning other methods of gaining endurance - panacea and perf shifter - because its all relevant in the scope of why you dont want recovery bonuses any larger than they already are.

[nzer]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

you cant talk about recovery bonuses and their effects without mentioning other methods of gaining endurance

Hold my beer, I'm going in:

 

Recovery set bonuses are currently undertuned relative to similar set bonuses, and because of that are never a consideration in the build process.

 

Nope, looks like I can talk about recovery bonuses and their effects without mentioning other methods of gaining endurance.

[Infinitum]

Just now, nzer said:

Hold my beer, I'm going in:

 

Recovery set bonuses are currently undertuned relative to similar set bonuses, and because of that are never a consideration in the build process.

 

Nope, looks like I can talk about recovery bonuses and their effects without mentioning other methods of gaining endurance.

Then, again you are missing the point completely.

[nzer]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Then, again you are missing the point completely.

No, you're mistakenly conflating distinct points.

 

Recovery set bonuses are undertuned, and because of that they are never a consideration in the build process. That's something that could reasonably be considered a problem. If increasing recovery set bonuses such that they're not undertuned causes an overabundance of endurance generation, that's something that could also reasonably be considered a problem. The fact that solving the first problem causes another doesn't mean the first problem isn't a problem, it means there are two distinct problems, one of which is hiding the other.

 

In a properly balanced system we would neither have undertuned recovery set bonuses nor an overabundance of endurance generation. Are you trying to argue that scenario is fundamentally impossible? Because you'd be wrong.

[Bopper]

FWIW

 

+1% recovery = MaxEnd/6000 endurance per second. (+0.01667 eps if MaxEnd = 100)

 

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, nzer said:

No, you're mistakenly conflating distinct points.

 

Recovery set bonuses are undertuned, and because of that they are never a consideration in the build process. That's something that could reasonably be considered a problem. If increasing recovery set bonuses such that they're not undertuned causes an overabundance of endurance generation, that's something that could also reasonably be considered a problem. The fact that solving the first problem causes another doesn't mean the first problem isn't a problem, it means there are two distinct problems, one of which is hiding the other.

 

In a properly balanced system we would neither have undertuned recovery set bonuses nor an overabundance of endurance generation. Are you trying to argue that scenario is fundamentally impossible? Because you'd be wrong.

 

[nzer]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

 

I'm noticing a trend in this thread of posting cute pictures in lieu of substantive arguments. Curious that it's only happening on one side of the discussion.

[Infinitum]

Just now, nzer said:

I'm noticing a trend in this thread of posting cute pictures in lieu of substantive arguments. Curious that it's only happening on one side of the discussion.

Sometimes pictures help.

 

I guess not in this case.

 

The bonuses are small because anything larger would be game breaking because of the many diverse options to add to end management.

 

End is one of the things in the game where any adjustment even small is noticeable.

 

Sure you could rebalance the endurance system, the set bonuses, and the game itself, to make sense to you, or accept the fact that smaller recovery bonuses make more sense and do in fact add up and then coalesce with the other features in place for end management to make it ridiculously easy as is.

[Zeraphia]

20 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Its because they arent supposed to.

 

End management is already ridiculously easy as there are many ways to do it.

 

1. + end procs - my average build has at least three in every one.

 

2. Enh values in both end reduction per power, and endurance generation in stamina, superior conditioning, phys perfection... Etc.

 

3. Inherent stamina.  It's already free now.

 

4. Set bonuses.  They aren't designed for 1 set bonus or even many to remove all end issues. just like all the rest of the set bonuses have a cumulative effect.  But also like other set bonuses you have to actually plan your build with all aspects in mind-res, def, regen, recovery, end, dmg, procs for it to come together.

 

I'm not one to shrug away things that make it easier but end management is sufficient as is right now.

There are a lot of builds that unfortunately just... can't. 

 

A nightmare for endurance consumption is my Thugs/Storm MM, even with Ageless, multiple +end procs, panacea and miracle in health, she still goes through end like a cheap hooker goes through poles. >_<! No offense to the hookers out there!

Really anything with Storm/ is a nightmare for end. 

A lot of controllers are endurance nightmares...

Dark Armor/TW any AT... lord...

[nzer]

10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

or accept the fact that smaller recovery bonuses make more sense and do in fact add up and then coalesce with the other features in place for end management to make it ridiculously easy as is.

Recovery set bonuses are an almost negligibly small part of that picture, and thinking buffing them to the level suggested would somehow render the entire endurance system meaningless requires complete ignorance of exactly how small the numbers in question are. You think an extra ~0.2 end/sec on builds that don't specifically slot for it is somehow game breaking?

 

I don't really know how else to say it, except to point out that the panacea proc, itself not a large portion of a full build's recovery, is worth more than five instances of the largest recovery set bonus. For comparison, five instances of the largest recharge set bonus is nearly equivalent to a 50+5 recharge IO in every single power.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, 33053222 said:

There are a lot of builds that unfortunately just... can't. 

 

A nightmare for endurance consumption is my Thugs/Storm MM, even with Ageless, multiple +end procs, panacea and miracle in health, she still goes through end like a cheap hooker goes through poles. >_<! No offense to the hookers out there!

Really anything with Storm/ is a nightmare for end. 

A lot of controllers are endurance nightmares...

Dark Armor/TW any AT... lord...

See, all of those can be fixed, but you have to give something up to do it.

 

Take a tank, for instance, they want to survive anything. But they pick ever attack avail, 6 slot them all and wonder why they can't then survive everything.

 

I'm not saying that's you but I wouldn't mind looking at your build to see what is up.  I have an ice/storm that I don't have any issues with, if you picked ageless and went core that alone should have carried you through.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, nzer said:

Recovery set bonuses are an almost negligibly small part of that picture, and thinking buffing them to the level suggested would somehow render the entire endurance system meaningless requires complete ignorance of exactly how small the numbers in question are. You think an extra ~0.2 end/sec on builds that don't specifically slot for it is somehow game breaking?

 

I don't really know how else to say it, except to point out that the panacea proc, itself not a large portion of a full build's recovery, is worth more than five instances of the largest recovery set bonus. For comparison, five instances of the largest recharge set bonus is nearly equivalent to a 50+5 recharge IO in every single power.

It's like you are wondering why the change machine doesn't work while there is a free pot of gold to any takers right beside it.

 

Procs, uniques, and the like are supposed to be stronger.

 

The set bonuses are usually a piece of a bigger pie - more valuable set bonuses.

 

However the recovery set bonuses add up and do in fact contribute but that depends on the build and slotting and honestly how you play.

 

I don't know how else to say it, but on homecoming if you are having endurance issues you are choosing to do so by ignoring some available way to fix it, and yes increasing recovery bonuses would be game breaking, because endurance game is already an easy button.

 

Anyone that knows me, knows I'm all for easy buttons, but this suggestion goes too far.

[nzer]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

yes increasing recovery bonuses would be game breaking, because endurance game is already an easy button.

By all means, explain how. Explain in more detail than "it breaks the game," because that's all you've said so far. What builds would suddenly become broken if recovery set bonuses were twice as powerful as they are now?

[Infinitum]

55 minutes ago, nzer said:

By all means, explain how. Explain in more detail than "it breaks the game," because that's all you've said so far. What builds would suddenly become broken if recovery set bonuses were twice as powerful as they are now?

Um pretty much all of them because see comments above about it being easy button now.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

I don't know how else to say it, but on homecoming if you are having endurance issues you are choosing to do so by ignoring some available way to fix it, and yes increasing recovery bonuses would be game breaking, because endurance game is already an easy button.

See said it already. Pretty self explanatory.

 

If there are any unicorn builds out there that are still struggling, its more in line with it being a balance issue around that set than whats available in recovery set bonuses.

 

I havent found anything yet I cant build around to remove endurance issues though.

 

If that is the case, even if you boost recovery bonuses that set would still be broken hypothetically speaking, but in turn the good sets would be even more OP then.

 

That could create a balance issue in itself.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Infinitum

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, nzer said:

By all means, explain how.

We have.

MULTIPLE TIMES.

 

You just refuse to accept any explanation that does not give you the answer(s) that you want to hear.

That refusal is ON YOU ... not us.

 

Game Over.

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

We have.

MULTIPLE TIMES.

 

You just refuse to accept any explanation that does not give you the answer(s) that you want to hear.

That refusal is ON YOU ... not us.

 

Game Over.

I've seen many posts about how posters in this thread have their endurance issues solved, but nothing that explains how more +Recovery would really unbalance the game. If you get more and more Recovery, all that happens is eventually you stop running out of endurance. "Doesn't run out of endurance" is basically just a baseline expectation for any endgame build, and more Recovery past the point where your character achieves that doesn't really do anything at all. Recovery is like Accuracy in that way.

 

And running out of endurance just isn't fun. Cryptic used a lot of lessons they learned from CoH when they made Champions Online, and just like they designed a complicated system of dodging and damage reduction where your attacks never actually miss because players hated their attacks missing, they also built their combat system so that you could never actually run out of endurance, because players hate running out of endurance.

[Infinitum]

27 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I've seen many posts about how posters in this thread have their endurance issues solved, but nothing that explains how more +Recovery would really unbalance the game.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

If there are any unicorn builds out there that are still struggling, its more in line with it being a balance issue around that set than whats available in recovery set bonuses.

 

I havent found anything yet I cant build around to remove endurance issues though.

 

If that is the case, even if you boost recovery bonuses that set would still be broken hypothetically speaking, but in turn the good sets would be even more OP then.

 

That could create a balance issue in itself.

 

[Redlynne]

31 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I've seen many posts about how posters in this thread have their endurance issues solved, but nothing that explains how more +Recovery would really unbalance the game. If you get more and more Recovery, all that happens is eventually you stop running out of endurance. "Doesn't run out of endurance" is basically just a baseline expectation for any endgame build, and more Recovery past the point where your character achieves that doesn't really do anything at all. Recovery is like Accuracy in that way.

 

And running out of endurance just isn't fun. Cryptic used a lot of lessons they learned from CoH when they made Champions Online, and just like they designed a complicated system of dodging and damage reduction where your attacks never actually miss because players hated their attacks missing, they also built their combat system so that you could never actually run out of endurance, because players hate running out of endurance.

Allow me to summarize what you just said.

 

"I fell in the river and got wet!  Fix it so I don't get wet when I fall in!"

 

 

 

The obvious response to that is STOP FALLING IN THE RIVER!! ... but that doesn't occur to some people, so they keep falling in the river and blame the river for getting them wet, rather than doing something that prevents them from falling into the river all the time.

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Vanden said:

"Doesn't run out of endurance" is basically just a baseline expectation for any endgame build

Do you know WHY that is ... and I quote you ... "basically just a baseline expectation for any endgame build" ... ?

 

The reason why is because endurance recovery/net usage is ONE OF THE FACTORS that you need to (and I know this is a difficult concept for you to grasp, so I'm pointing it out now) ... BALANCE AROUND ... in order to have a successful endgame build.

 

You're trying to say that ... no ... you shouldn't HAVE TO balance around that factor (at all) as part of "any endgame build" ... while we're saying that not only YES YOU SHOULD but also that YES YOU CAN ... and that doing so is one of the reasons why endgame builds that are successful are successful in the way that they are successful.

 

Or to put it another way, we're saying you need to learn how to twist your wrist to screw in a light bulb ... while you keep saying you shouldn't have to do that and that the world should just revolve around you so that the light bulb screws itself in for you so that you don't have to go to any effort of learning how to twist your wrist to screw in that light bulb (because it's not "fun" for you).

 

And what's sad is that we shouldn't need to go to all this effort to point out that your assertions are founded upon a misunderstanding ... but so long as you desperately cling to that misunderstanding, thereby distorting your entire frame of reference and perspective, there's simply no getting through to you.

 

GAME OVER.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Redlynne
pytos

[Vanden]

20 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Allow me to summarize what you just said.

 

"I fell in the river and got wet!  Fix it so I don't get wet when I fall in!"

 

 

 

The obvious response to that is STOP FALLING IN THE RIVER!! ... but that doesn't occur to some people, so they keep falling in the river and blame the river for getting them wet, rather than doing something that prevents them from falling into the river all the time.

 

 

 

Do you know WHY that is ... and I quote you ... "basically just a baseline expectation for any endgame build" ... ?

 

The reason why is because endurance recovery/net usage is ONE OF THE FACTORS that you need to (and I know this is a difficult concept for you to grasp, so I'm pointing it out now) ... BALANCE AROUND ... in order to have a successful endgame build.

 

You're trying to say that ... no ... you shouldn't HAVE TO balance around that factor (at all) as part of "any endgame build" ... while we're saying that not only YES YOU SHOULD but also that YES YOU CAN ... and that doing so is one of the reasons why endgame builds that are successful are successful in the way that they are successful.

 

Or to put it another way, we're saying you need to learn how to twist your wrist to screw in a light bulb ... while you keep saying you shouldn't have to do that and that the world should just revolve around you so that the light bulb screws itself in for you so that you don't have to go to any effort of learning how to twist your wrist to screw in that light bulb (because it's not "fun" for you).

 

And what's sad is that we shouldn't need to go to all this effort to point out that your assertions are founded upon a misunderstanding ... but so long as you desperately cling to that misunderstanding, thereby distorting your entire frame of reference and perspective, there's simply no getting through to you.

 

GAME OVER.

This post is pretty strawman-ish... I'm not saying that endurance issues should just go away, I certainly never said any of my own characters have endurance problems, and you can't find a quote from me in this thread that says that without maliciously paraphrasing it. I'm saying that recovery set bonuses are so small and weak as to be non-factors. Endurance management is meant to be a part of the game, and my proposed change only makes it so that leveraging those set bonuses becomes an actual, meaningful tool players have to work towards that goal.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Vanden