Buff +Recovery set bonuses

[Vanden]

+Recovery set bonuses suck. There, I said it. Why are they so weak? I do not know. The "Ultimate" level +Recovery set bonus is a 4% increase in Recovery, which is less than half of what you get putting a single SO into Stamina. That's the best one there is, and it makes me pinch my nose and go "pee-yew!" So how about we just buff them?

 

	Current (%)	Proposed (%)
Tiny	1	2.5
Small	1.5	3.75
Moderate	2	5
Large	2.5	6.25
Huge	3	7.5
Gargantuan	3.5	8.75
Ultimate	4	10

 

My proposal is to increase them to 2.5x their current strength. I arrived at this number by doing a quick look at all my fully-IOed characters and seeing that all their +Recovery bonuses usually added up to less than the Numina unique is worth. Maybe this will help give IO options for end management that isn't "hope the sets you need to six-slot come with good end reduction numbers."

[SwitchFade]

Why?

[MTeague]

Maybe I've been lucky in which powersets I choose.  But I've never had Endurance managmenet be an ongoing problem past lvl 30, and often not past lvl 20.  

My Fire/Fire sent was among the toughest to get under control, but he was running EIGHT toggles, and really, I could have should have turned some of them off rather than OOM'ing shortly after each fight.

 

Endurance Managment is just another aspect to the game, much like building up Defense and Resistance and damage potential.

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

Why?

So they're worth having.

[Bopper]

The math looks right if we're comparing the bonuses to something like regeneration, where its Ultimate bonus is 16% which is roughly the equivalent of putting a level 50 IO heal into Health (40%*0.424 = 16.96%). Similarly, a level 50 IO endmod in Stamina would give you (25%*0.424 = 10.6%). That lines up with your proposal of a Ultimate bonus being 10% recovery.

 

The only counter-argument I see is the availability of endurance reduction enhancements available to every power you use, whereas not every power can be enhanced by a healing enhancement. For that reason, I think recovery set bonuses are purposefully set to such small values. 

 

That being said, I modest buff is certainly a reasonable request. Maybe not a 2.5x, but a 1.5x seems rather fair.

 

 

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

So they're worth having.

Why aren't they?

[Redlynne]

I'm happy with the endurance recovery set bonuses where they are.  They may be weak individually, but they can be obtained from a pretty wide variety of places and can be stacked to non-trival quantities (key word ... stacked).

[Vanden]

19 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Why aren't they?

Too smol 

[SwitchFade]

Just now, Vanden said:

Too smol 

So very small? Ok quintuple them.

[ScarySai]

4 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Why?

Why not?

[SwitchFade]

2 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Why not?

Cuz...

 

Reasons. 

[Vanden]

On 3/6/2020 at 12:28 AM, Redlynne said:

I'm happy with the endurance recovery set bonuses where they are.  They may be weak individually, but they can be obtained from a pretty wide variety of places and can be stacked to non-trival quantities (key word ... stacked).

Let me try to put into perspective how weak the bonuses are right now. The Ultimate +Recovery bonus, the largest one, is a 4% increase to Recovery rates. That works out to an extra 4 endurance generated every minute. A typical t2 blast attack like Power Blast costs 8.53 endurance to use. If you slot a single endurance cost SO into that power, bringing it down to 6.4 endurance cost, and use that power only twice per minute, you've already improved your endurance economy more than the best single +Recovery set bonus.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Vanden

[nzer]

25 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Let me try to put into perspective how weak the bonuses are right now. The Ultimate +Recovery bonus, the largest one, is a 4% increase to Recovery rates. That works out to an extra 4 endurance generated every minute. A typical t2 blast attack like Power Blast costs 8.53 endurance to use. If you slot a single endurance recovery SO into that power, bringing it down to 6.4 endurance cost, and use that power only twice per minute, you've already improved your endurance economy more than the best single +Recovery set bonus.

I think a better way to say this is that after two minutes the largest recovery set bonus won't even have paid for a single use of a T2 blast, which with a proper build can be cast something like 15 times a minute.

[Redlynne]

My Ninja/Time/Mace Mastermind build achieves this ...

On 8/10/2019 at 5:08 PM, Redlynne said:

5.85% Max End
9% (0.15 End/sec) Recovery

 

My Peacebringer build achieves this ...

On 11/28/2019 at 11:02 PM, Redlynne said:

2.25% Max End

8.75% Enhancement(Max EnduranceDiscount)
2.5% (0.04 End/sec) Recovery

 

My Warshade build achieves this ...

On 12/9/2019 at 7:59 AM, Redlynne said:

4.05% Max End

5% Enhancement(Max EnduranceDiscount)
5% (0.08 End/sec) Recovery

 

My Gravity/Time Controller build achieves this ...

On 9/22/2019 at 7:41 PM, Redlynne said:

4.5% Max End
12% (0.2 End/sec) Recovery

 

My Mind/Nature/Primal Controller build achieves this ...

On 9/7/2019 at 6:30 PM, Redlynne said:

5.85% Max End
15% (0.25 End/sec) Recovery

 

My Time/Dual Pistols/Soul Defender build achieves this ...

On 8/6/2019 at 12:51 AM, Redlynne said:

4.05% Max End
14% (0.23 End/sec) Recovery

 

My Huntsman (Crab version) build achieves this ...

On 9/1/2019 at 9:48 PM, Redlynne said:

5.4% Max End

10% Enhancement(Max EnduranceDiscount)
11.5% (0.2 End/sec) Recovery

 

 

 

And those are all on builds that are optimized for +Recharge bonuses of +85% and up from sets ... where the endurance/recovery set bonuses are both "gravy" and useful on high recharge builds.

29 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Let me try to put into perspective how weak the bonuses are right now.

Individually, if you're only got 1 or 2 of them ... sure.  When you start stacking a few of them together though, they start making a difference (especially if you can stack up a LOT of them).  They ADD UP and they're ALWAYS ON.  That's powerful if you start building to make use of a number of them, especially since they can also stack with Accolades that can give you even more recovery over the baseline.  Combine with +Max Endurance and global Endurance Discount bonuses and it can start making quite a large difference in your endurance budget (in other words, more than you're admitting to here).

 

Or to put it another way, you're looking at the question in a vacuum ... not in the overall context of the entirety of an entire build.  The recovery set bonuses are not intended(!) to make the endurance costs of your attack powers "free" (or at least, net endurance neutral) all by themselves.  You CAN however leverage enough of them to make a difference in how the endurance budget of a build "works" over the long(er) haul for improved sustain potential in heavy combat, which is what they're meant to do ... by which I mean "improve" as opposed to "solve singlehandedly" as you seem to be inferring/implying they ought to be doing.

[nzer]

@Redlynne, maybe I'm misreading something, but those numbers seem almost comically small to me. 5.85% max end and 0.15 end/sec doesn't offset even a single cheap toggle.

[Vanden]

32 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Individually, if you're only got 1 or 2 of them ... sure.  When you start stacking a few of them together though, they start making a difference (especially if you can stack up a LOT of them).  They ADD UP and they're ALWAYS ON.  That's powerful if you start building to make use of a number of them, especially since they can also stack with Accolades that can give you even more recovery over the baseline.  Combine with +Max Endurance and global Endurance Discount bonuses and it can start making quite a large difference in your endurance budget (in other words, more than you're admitting to here).

 

Or to put it another way, you're looking at the question in a vacuum ... not in the overall context of the entirety of an entire build.  The recovery set bonuses are not intended(!) to make the endurance costs of your attack powers "free" (or at least, net endurance neutral) all by themselves.  You CAN however leverage enough of them to make a difference in how the endurance budget of a build "works" over the long(er) haul for improved sustain potential in heavy combat, which is what they're meant to do ... by which I mean "improve" as opposed to "solve singlehandedly" as you seem to be inferring/implying they ought to be doing.

I'm comparing the single largest possible +Recovery bonus to only one power with average end reduction slotting and a laughably low rate of usage and the set bonuses are already coming out looking bad. When you start to factor in that you're going to be using that example power way more than twice a minute, and using numerous other powers as well, probably with their own endurance reduction enhancements, it's obvious that the +Recovery set bonuses can't even hope to compare. Take your Grav/Time Controller: their set bonuses give that Controller an extra ~12.5 endurance every minute. How much End do you think your Controller spends in a minute? How much End do you think has been saved from slotting endurance reduction? Do you think either is anywhere close to 12.5 end? Because I don't.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Vanden

[Bopper]

Now that you reminded me, Endurance can go from 0% to 100% in one minute, whereas Health goes from 0% to 100% in four minutes. That is likely why we're seeing Recovery bonus values 1/4th that of Regeneration bonuses. Also, I recall Regeneration is linear with respect to HP/sec, so adding +X% regen always results in adding +Y% in HP/sec. Since Recovery works the same way, we know stacking will also have a linear relationship to endurance recovery rate. What actually matters is the endurance consumption to endurance recovery ratio. Similar to defense and resistance getting closer to cap has an exponential benefit, the same is said for the closer endurance recovery gets to endurance consumption, as the time until endurance drain will grow exponentially. 

 

Luckily, there are three ways to combat that: Increase Recovery, Increase Endurance Discount (set bonuses and enhancements), and Increase Max Endurance. 

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, nzer said:

@Redlynne, maybe I'm misreading something, but those numbers seem almost comically small to me. 5.85% max end and 0.15 end/sec doesn't offset even a single cheap toggle.

Its because they arent supposed to.

 

End management is already ridiculously easy as there are many ways to do it.

 

1. + end procs - my average build has at least three in every one.

 

2. Enh values in both end reduction per power, and endurance generation in stamina, superior conditioning, phys perfection... Etc.

 

3. Inherent stamina.  It's already free now.

 

4. Set bonuses.  They aren't designed for 1 set bonus or even many to remove all end issues. just like all the rest of the set bonuses have a cumulative effect.  But also like other set bonuses you have to actually plan your build with all aspects in mind-res, def, regen, recovery, end, dmg, procs for it to come together.

 

I'm not one to shrug away things that make it easier but end management is sufficient as is right now.

[Redlynne]

7 hours ago, nzer said:

@Redlynne, maybe I'm misreading something, but those numbers seem almost comically small to me. 5.85% max end and 0.15 end/sec doesn't offset even a single cheap toggle.

Well, since you're picking my Mastermind build to hold up as an example ... let's use it.

 

With all Toggles running and all Accolades active and all slots in place (for set bonuses to be active), my Mastermind build features a total throughput of:

Endurance Recovery: 3.48/s

Endurance Usage: 1.46/s

Maximum Endurance: 115.9

 

With the exact same Toggles running and all Accolades disabled and all slots removed (for set bonuses to be negated), my Mastermind build features a total throughput of:

Endurance Recovery: 2.08/s

Endurance Usage: 2.15/s

Maximum Endurance: 100

 

So the Whole Of Build difference in endurance usage between NOTHING and EVERYTHING COMBINED is ...

Endurance Recovery: +1.40/s

Endurance Usage: -0.69/s

Maximum Endurance: +15.9

 

I'd say that going from a net negative of -0.07/s throughput to a net positive of +2.02/s throughput in the holistic context of an entire build plan WOULD (what did you call it?) "offset even a single cheap toggle" ... and I'm not even including the effect of procs for +Endurance here (which pushes things even further positive with Panacea and Performance Shifter procs).

 

Oh and in case you missed it ... +0.15 endurance/second is more than DOUBLE the endurance cost of Combat Jumping, which is everyone's go to example of "a single cheap toggle" ... because IT IS "a single cheap toggle" (and you're welcome to refute that notion, but I wouldn't recommend it).

 

You're also missing the fact that increasing Maximum Endurance will ALSO have a knock on effect of increasing Endurance Recovery.  Every +1% to Maximum Endurance will also increase endurance per second recovery.  So having both will multiply the effectiveness of endurance recovery bonuses.  From a game design standpoint, that means that if you let either Maximum Endurance OR Endurance Recovery set bonuses get "too big" then you wind up with a runaway situation (mathematically speaking) where in combination they become "too good" and all limits on performance imposed by having a LIMITED endurance recovery rate simply VANISH.

7 hours ago, Bopper said:

Now that you reminded me, Endurance can go from 0% to 100% in one minute, whereas Health goes from 0% to 100% in four minutes. That is likely why we're seeing Recovery bonus values 1/4th that of Regeneration bonuses. Also, I recall Regeneration is linear with respect to HP/sec, so adding +X% regen always results in adding +Y% in HP/sec. Since Recovery works the same way, we know stacking will also have a linear relationship to endurance recovery rate. What actually matters is the endurance consumption to endurance recovery ratio. Similar to defense and resistance getting closer to cap has an exponential benefit, the same is said for the closer endurance recovery gets to endurance consumption, as the time until endurance drain will grow exponentially. 

 

Luckily, there are three ways to combat that: Increase Recovery, Increase Endurance Discount (set bonuses and enhancements), and Increase Max Endurance. 

THIS.

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

but end management is sufficient as is right now.

AND THIS ...

[Grouchybeast]

Regen and recovery bonuses also tend to come early in the set.  Often they're the 2 piece bonus.  It's very easy to stack up multiples of them, and so they're weaker bonuses than the later set bonuses.

[Outrider_01]

Endurance reduction + Incarnate click, BOOM! 500% while it slowly works down until your click again. 

 

I would take endurance reduction bonuses over +recovery anyway, they apply faster with every power used, blue skittles, and endurance reduc in the power itself; also with a power set that has endurance reduction power itself or +end straight from the enemy (not electric low chance powers, just the straight AoE type designed for it).  +recovery is pretty trivial unless you are running all those toggles and spamming like a sugar crazed kid.

[Vanden]

6 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Oh and in case you missed it ... +0.15 endurance/second is more than DOUBLE the endurance cost of Combat Jumping, which is everyone's go to example of "a single cheap toggle" ... because IT IS "a single cheap toggle" (and you're welcome to refute that notion, but I wouldn't recommend it).

Combat Jumping is not a good example of a cheap toggle; it's a known major outlier. A typical toggle is more like .21 End/sec, and an expensive toggle could be as high as .52 End/sec, like Dispersion Bubble.

 

To say End management options from IOs are sufficient is just myopic. They are not. If the IO sets you want to slot don't have good endurance values, and you didn't choose power sets with endurance management powers, you have no real options. Global Endurance cost reduction bonuses are present in all of four enhancement sets, and sets with +Max End are relegated to unpopular sets in niche categories or that don't go to 50, and the majority require four-slot investments. +Recovery bonuses are the only End management set bonus options with presence in a variety of popular sets.

 

Let's do another comparison, this time to Accuracy set bonuses. To hit a +3 enemy 95% of the time, a typical attack needs ~100% accuracy enhancement. An average accuracy slotting in a power is around 40-60%, which means set bonuses would need to be around 60-40% to make up the difference. This is quite achievable. As it happens, 40% +Recovery would also be a good, noticeable amount of +Recovery; it's around what you get from slightly underslotted Stamina, or both +Recovery uniques together with a Performance Shifter. These two types of set bonuses, with roughly equal value to a build at similar numbers, have vastly different numbers in set bonuses. The smallest Accuracy set bonus is 3%, and the second smallest Accuracy set bonus is 5%, already bigger than the largest Recovery set bonus. With my proposed 2.5 multiplier to the current Recovery set bonuses, they would still be smaller than the equivalent Accuracy bonuses at all levels, which should illustrate both that my proposal is not as major as it may seem, and that the current values are laughably weak.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Vanden

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Vanden said:

With my proposed 2.5 multiplier to the current Recovery set bonuses, they would still be smaller than the equivalent Accuracy bonuses at all levels, which should illustrate both that my proposal is not as major as it may seem, and that the current values are laughably weak.

How small they seem is inconsequential.

 

In a vacuum yes they are smaller than various other bonuses.

 

The issue is with a good build there are NEVER any end issues anymore.  Ever.

 

 

Never ever.

 

 

Ever.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

How small they seem is inconsequential.

 

In a vacuum yes they are smaller than various other bonuses.

 

The issue is with a good build there are NEVER any end issues anymore.  Ever.

 

 

Never ever.

 

 

Ever.

EVER   🙂

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

Combat Jumping is not a good example of a cheap toggle