City of Heroes vs. Champions Online - The Data

[Rathulfr]

On 3/22/2020 at 2:47 PM, Generator said:

@Jaguaratron, oh I definitely remember that Jack's direction for the game was... we'll be kind and say "idiosyncratic" (I'm thinking of his fervent opposition to showing us real numbers, and also that Boss change at I3, allegedly inspired by a super tough boss fight he had on a Game Boy, and now having thought about that I'm suppressing a facial tic).  I won't lie, I wasn't all that broken up when he parted ways with Paragon.

Yeah, I completely lost all respect for Jack when he told us about his Game Boy on a plane experience, and how that altered the trajectory of game design for CoH.  It was a complete SMH moment that I'll never forget: Statesman really died that day, as far as I was concerned.

[Rathulfr]

On 3/22/2020 at 6:48 PM, Jaguaratron said:

I feel you did COH a disservice though, its aged pretty well all in all and twitch systems like blocking is a failure in a MMO because it alienates people who are not fast reacting, differently able and aging gamers, in other words those who are likely to be retained for a long run as opposed to drop it for a new shiny.

Us aging boomers have *lots* of cash to throw at the right game.  And the right game for this particular boomer would do well to not alienate me by requiring fast reactions and use of both thumbs.  My kids do not understand why I don't like most modern games.  I won't touch a console with a ten foot pole (much less both of my thumbs), and it puzzles them to no end.  I like my aging PC games and their keyboards just fine, thanks.  If CoH can develop into the future without abandoning the past, then my wallet is wide open for that.

 

[Rathulfr]

On 3/22/2020 at 7:57 PM, Sovera said:

Unfortunately zero have taken the bait. At most they play 2-3 minutes, promise to return, and I never see them again.

I've had the same experience.  I really don't understand why my friends who love WoW, ESO, Warhammer, etc. have zero interest in CoH.  I think they don't "get" the whole "be a super-hero" appeal.  Or maybe that has a negative connotation, like I'm suggesting they dress up and act like Adam West or something.  It's frustrating.

[Rathulfr]

On 3/22/2020 at 11:32 AM, ArchVileTerror said:

Excuse you, Sovera!

I'll have you know that not all of us who are super thirsty are guys!

My problem was never being able to find super thirsty gals who found me attractive.  😭

Then I found one, and she hasn't left me alone for 28 years.  🤣

[ArchVileTerror]

Congratulations on 28 years!  My spouse and I are "only" up to 12 so far.

[Seed22]

On 3/23/2020 at 1:02 AM, Blackfeather said:

Out of curiosity, how would one play a Controller or Mastermind in CO? Can one forgo those energy building attacks entirely? And what do you mean by flow?

You can't. Trust me I've tried. 41 40s, 6 are "pet" FFs. it's not horrdenous but it is bad for endgame and generic in terms of every pet master is a hodge-podge of pets instead of a set like CoH. Controllers don't exist, period.

[Seed22]

On 3/24/2020 at 2:35 AM, Blackfeather said:

I see - so in other words, freeform has the potential to make sub-optimal builds easier to create. I've heard CO is a bit more challenging than CoH as well; with that in mind, it sounds difficult to balance a character between desired powers to fit a theme and playing the actual game well.

Not necessarily! Actually, CO's difficulty lies only in endgame, and that's due to the community really. Unless the same people who lead the community in these raids show up, it's a guaranteed failure or at least a slog. But otherwise? Nah, you can build a suboptimal build and not really be pressed throughout the game. Though everyone, once again, is shoehorned into a half-done WoW clone scenario by endgame(generic healer builds, for instance)

[Shred Monkey]

On 3/21/2020 at 12:57 PM, Jaguaratron said:

You may want to look at real people sometime..... also note how they move then tell me CO uses more "realistic" proportions...

I"m confused by these statements.  The CO sliders go way further than COH in both directions and there are about 25-30 sliders to adjust.  If you like CoH's proportions, you can duplicate them in CO... But you can't even come close to duplicating CO's body options here.

[Shred Monkey]

On 3/22/2020 at 2:47 PM, Generator said:

@Jaguaratron, oh I definitely remember that Jack's direction for the game was... we'll be kind and say "idiosyncratic" (I'm thinking of his fervent opposition to showing us real numbers, and also that Boss change at I3, allegedly inspired by a super tough boss fight he had on a Game Boy, and now having thought about that I'm suppressing a facial tic).  I won't lie, I wasn't all that broken up when he parted ways with Paragon.

Wait... was this when AV's got their HP buff that put their regen over the top?   I never heard the game boy story.... that's fantastic!

[TheOtherTed]

1 hour ago, Shred Monkey said:

Wait... was this when AV's got their HP buff that put their regen over the top?   I never heard the game boy story.... that's fantastic!

Nope.  I remember the regen bug, and I didn't join until after I6.  Good times, though... if you were rad or kin!

[Blackfeather]

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

You can't. Trust me I've tried. 41 40s, 6 are "pet" FFs. it's not horrdenous but it is bad for endgame and generic in terms of every pet master is a hodge-podge of pets instead of a set like CoH. Controllers don't exist, period.

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

Not necessarily! Actually, CO's difficulty lies only in endgame, and that's due to the community really. Unless the same people who lead the community in these raids show up, it's a guaranteed failure or at least a slog. But otherwise? Nah, you can build a suboptimal build and not really be pressed throughout the game. Though everyone, once again, is shoehorned into a half-done WoW clone scenario by endgame(generic healer builds, for instance)

Ah well. Put together, it does sound like the game is flexible, but not in the ways that are meaningful for me personally - that is to say, fun and varied (and influential) crowd control, along with an enjoyable pet archetype. Not exactly riveting tanky/blasty/healy hero material, but that's mainly how I play in CoH.

[ArchVileTerror]

I don't have the quote in front of me, but I have a memory of reading something from Jack along the lines of his expectation for City of Heroes Archvillains to be on par with what we know today as "Dark Souls Hard."   ie:  Banging one's head against it, until you finally triumph through sheer tedious reattempts.  Multiplied eight-fold by being on a full team.

[Redlynne]

Yeah, that sounds like Jack ... 😟

[_NOPE_]

Except that Demons' Souls didn't come out until 2009 and Dark Souls in 2011, AFTER both CoH and CO were out. Doesn't add up. 

[Generator]

6 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

Wait... was this when AV's got their HP buff that put their regen over the top?   I never heard the game boy story.... that's fantastic!

No, at the very start of Issue 3, Bosses were buffed to ridiculous levels (big boosts to HP and Dmg, if memory serves).  Made things untenable, having these damn things everywhere.  Eventually they were forced to roll that back.  Am I misremembering that as the point at which the Elite Boss rank was created?

[ArchVileTerror]

Emphasis:  "with what we know today as"

I am using modern parlance to paraphrase what was originally stated by Jack.

[ZeeHero]

CO could have been better than COH but that chance passed not long after its launch. CO's art style is decent outside derpy male character looks. definitely competes with COH given how much higher rez it is- and the fact people have FINGERS.

 

COH wins becuase it was developed far longer, and better than CO, CO cant even be said to be developed anymore its like one tiny release of 4 missions every year.

 

Also the dev in charge of CO while she seems to have good intentions- lets face it she's more clueless and awful than emmert.

[ZeeHero]

On 3/24/2020 at 1:05 PM, Rathulfr said:

I've had the same experience.  I really don't understand why my friends who love WoW, ESO, Warhammer, etc. have zero interest in CoH.  I think they don't "get" the whole "be a super-hero" appeal.  Or maybe that has a negative connotation, like I'm suggesting they dress up and act like Adam West or something.  It's frustrating.

I find COH completely lacking in gameplay. but that does not mean I don't love it and see its appeal.

 

COH does what no other game out there right now does. you can become POWERFUL. take on armies. and can do it in MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.

 

Not to mention a darn good character editor. not as good as CO's outside a few places where COH comes on top like power editing, but good enough.

 

If I want a real challenge, I dont look to COH becuase that is the last place one should expect to find it. I have FFXIV and raid savage raids there. that, and the occasional Ultimate prog satisfies the need for challenge. in COH the challenge is always in the RP when I am RPing them (my characters) facing desperate odds.

Edited March 30, 2020 by ZeeHero

[Robertium77]

Hi.

 

The only two things I liked a lot of CO were, lifting cars (even trucks) and body customization. 

 

Nothing else.

 

 

[ZeeHero]

Being able to target yourself is not a valid consideration for balance at all. if FF users could bubble themselves FF might not be so awful compared to other support sets.

 

TBH any buff in COH which cant target the user, should be able to and you could do it without changing the balance of power significantly.

[ZeeHero]

On 3/24/2020 at 1:05 PM, Rathulfr said:

I've had the same experience.  I really don't understand why my friends who love WoW, ESO, Warhammer, etc. have zero interest in CoH.  I think they don't "get" the whole "be a super-hero" appeal.  Or maybe that has a negative connotation, like I'm suggesting they dress up and act like Adam West or something.  It's frustrating.

I think it's the same reason COH can't hold my interest for long periods. COH gameplay itself has not aged well- very poorly in fact, the combat is absolutely awful compared to even WoW.

 

Sure, COH does basically everything else better, but the combat system is a huge part of retention if someone doesn't get deep into storyline RP.

[DoctorDitko]

44 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

combat is absolutely awful compared to even WoW.

I'll never play WoW, can you elaborate?

 

[BasherBot]

3 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

I'll never play WoW, can you elaborate?

 

WoW uses tab targeting and a "Global Cooldown" (GCD) for it's combat system... it's one of the first to implement it iirc

 

basically you can only attack every 2 seconds (I might be wrong there), but not every skill has it's own internal cooldown to compensate (almost every class has a skill they can spam out to "fill" their GCD rotations while they wait on cooldowns). A couple years back they added a new stat called Haste that lowers cooldowns of some spells/abilities while also shortening your GCD wait time (with a minimum or a 1 second GCD iirc).

[nightroarer]

1 hour ago, ZeeHero said:

I think it's the same reason COH can't hold my interest for long periods. COH gameplay itself has not aged well- very poorly in fact, the combat is absolutely awful compared to even WoW.

 

Sure, COH does basically everything else better, but the combat system is a huge part of retention if someone doesn't get deep into storyline RP.

I like the CoH combat system. Getting CoH back for the sheer fun of the gameplay--including combat--has been fantastic. The mechanics are not perfect, but they are better than the other major superhero games out there.

 

DCUO could not hold my interest at all, and I hated the combat mechanics there. I played CO after CoH shut down, but it never lived up to its predecessor. There are elements of CO I wish we could add to CoH, but overall, CoH wins out.

 

The great irony in that regard is that early last year, my wife, daughter, and I were running together in CO and my daughter said wistfully: "I miss City of Heroes." Two weeks later, we found out about Homecoming. Our superhero niche came home. 🙂

[wolfshadow31]

---

I couldn't get into the other Superhero games.  I gave CO a chance both before and after CoH shutdown.  I just didn't like it.  Once I found out CoH was back, it was like a dream come true!  Long live City of Heroes! 😄