City of Heroes vs. Champions Online - The Data

[_NOPE_]

Seeing this reddit thread from a year ago made me wonder - how *IS* this publicly released Superhero game, created by Cryptic, released in 2009, and sponsored and hosted by a global corporation doing, by comparison to our humble illegally run servers, which are hosted by a small anonymous team of independent fans?

 

Well, let's look at our servers at this exact moment first:

 

 

Over 2400 players in the middle of a Friday during the work week? That's pretty darn good if you ask me, for an over 15 year old game that's still OFFICIALLY dead.

 

Now, let's look at the competition. What does Steam say?

 

 

Wait, wait, 163 players??? With an all time max of 984 players??? That can't be right... maybe that's because people aren't running it THROUGH Steam, so Steam can't track it? Let's check in-game. I log in, and check ALL of the possible maps (which include instanced maps, by the way), because for some reason the game doesn't keep and display data like that publicly, and I'm frustrated to find out that their search window has a limitation of 100 players at a time, so I have to take this section by section and do some math... so, here we go:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So....

86 + 96 + 17 + 75 + 51 = 325

 

REALLY? 325 people in-game right now, with a legal game that was created and released in 2009, that's supported by a multinational corporation, that presumably has a paid staff and is still making content updates? Compared with 2,400 at the same time period for an illegal game that was created and released in 2004, which officially shut down in 2012, and is being supported by players and an unpaid staff?

 

I think the data clearly speaks for itself. Cryptic made a bad choice in giving up City of Heroes and trying to recreate a wheel, that they already created pretty damn well the first time. I'm thankful that we have a team that's working to make this legitimate, and to hopefully take it into the next level. The foundation is good, fantastic. Now, we just need to see what this puppy is capable of.

 

I think that this pretty much proves beyond a reasonable doubt which superhero MMO is the greatest. Our very own beloved City of Heroes.

 

[Blastit]

I do rather like the blocking system, though. I also liked that you could tweak CO controls to the point of essentially fighting by using a targeting reticle instead of tab targeting. Made for a very dynamic feeling.

[Obus Form]

@The Philotic Knight you're the hero we need but don't deserve.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Obus Form
Quoting mistake

[WanderingAries]

[Ultimo]

Champions does do many things quite well... but many of the things that are positives for the game are also negatives.  For example, it's great having the freedom to build a character with whatever powers I want... but this allows people to make gamebreaking characters that screw the balance.

 

I like the endurance system in CO better.  I find it rather onerous here.  More often than not, I'm left fighting my own powers instead of the enemy.  That's really about it.

CO has better graphics, but somehow is less realistic and immersive than CoH.  I can't even put my finger on why.

 

City of Heroes is a better game all around, and Champions' strengths are also its weaknesses.

[spectralhunter]

CO could have been great but I just couldn't get into some of the art style.  The faces for characters are just awful.  And the campy world/storylines took away a lot of the immersion.

 

Movement is also awkward.  I always feel like I'm running in jello or something.  Not as fluid or smooth.

[Abraxus]

When it came out, I played it for 3 months.  So, I gave it a chance.  When that was over, I went back to CoH, and never looked back.  Not since have I heard anything that gave me any serious cause for regretting that decision, and this thread would seem to highlight the fact that most others felt the same way.

 

Bottom line, it just wasn't as "fun" to play as CoH by any measurement that I found important.

[Dz131]

CO had huge potential.  It could have been COH2.  However the gameplay just wasn't there.

[Dreamboat]

Their global name system was a godsend and the amount of flavour options for travel powers was really cool. Also, underwater areas. Had fun in my time with it, if I could have all the costume and power options for free like I do here I 'd probably still start it up from time to time.  /e shrug

Edited March 20, 2020 by Dreamboat

[The Bobby Llama]

2 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

REALLY? 325 people in-game right now, with a legal game that was created and released in 2009, that's supported by a multinational corporation, that presumably has a paid staff and is still making content updates?

Last I heard, CO's paid staff was like 2 people.  If it wasn't for Star Trek Online, the game would have been shut down long ago.  Maria Rousseau (aka Zeronius Rex) at Cryptic once remarked that since CO and STO run on the same server cluster, it cost the company basically nothing to keep CO running.  This was before Kaiserin came on board, and the game was in maintenance mode at the time AFAIK.

2 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

I think the data clearly speaks for itself. Cryptic made a bad choice in giving up City of Heroes and trying to recreate a wheel, that they already created pretty damn well the first time.

There's a rumor out there, and I don't know how true it is, that what we got as Champions Online was originally supposed to be a Marvel MMO, but Marvel pulled out and Cryptic had to pick up the Champions IP to get their game done.  If that's true, I can certainly see why the decision was made.  If you were running a superhero game, and Marvel came along and gave you a chance to make an even better version using their IP, would you be able to pass it up?

2 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

I think that this pretty much proves beyond a reasonable doubt which superhero MMO is the greatest. Our very own beloved City of Heroes.

👍

[Dreamboat]

4 minutes ago, The Bobby Llama said:

There's a rumor out there, and I don't know how true it is, that what we got as Champions Online was originally supposed to be a Marvel MMO, but Marvel pulled out and Cryptic had to pick up the Champions IP to get their game done.

I've always thought this was pretty much accepted truth. I remember the teaser trailer for Marvel Online (or whatever working title it had) at the time, and then nothing came of it and we got Champions (hey, they never released the 360 version they announced either!). I think if you look at stuff like the desert area that's a huge part of early game, I'd bet all my inf that was going to be some form of designated Hulk quest arc area.

Edited March 20, 2020 by Dreamboat

[Grouchybeast]

4 minutes ago, Dreamboat said:

I've always thought this was pretty much accepted truth. I remember the teaser trailer for Marvel Online (or whatever working title it had) at the time, and then nothing came of it and we got Champions (hey, they never released the 360 version they announced either!). I think if you look at stuff like the desert area that's a huge part of early game, I'd bet all my inf that was going to be some form of designated Hulk quest arc area.

Just think, if Marvel has stuck with it, the game could've piggybacked on the MCU success and had film tie-in plots etc.

 

It would've been pretty amazing if they'd randomly snapped half of every player's characters after Endgame.

[Dreamboat]

1 minute ago, Grouchybeast said:

Just think, if Marvel has stuck with it, the game could've piggybacked on the MCU success and had film tie-in plots etc.

 

It would've been pretty amazing if they'd randomly snapped half of every player's characters after Endgame.

The weird thing is that Marvel Heroes (fun game - Thing main here!) was doing this! Adding new paid movie tie-in costumes, movie tie-in dungeons and so on, and Disney pulled the plug on it. To this day I've no idea why.

[Ultimo]

15 minutes ago, Dreamboat said:

The weird thing is that Marvel Heroes (fun game - Thing main here!) was doing this! Adding new paid movie tie-in costumes, movie tie-in dungeons and so on, and Disney pulled the plug on it. To this day I've no idea why.

There's actually a couple of videos on YouTube that explain the fall of Marvel Heroes...  Apparently there was some politics, and some poor judgement (we'll call it that) on the part of certain highly placed individuals.

[PyroNugget]

don't want to derail this thread but, Marvel Heroes was made by Gazillion and headed by Dave Dohrman, he is a grade A , 1st class scumbag. i mean typical 80's era spend all the company's money on hookers/coke and had more than a few in office harrassment cases going.....Disney found out.plug pulled FAST. an artist(stellar work) that worked for that game  handle of "The Dink" also did THIS GAME!!! hope she somehow finds out about HOMECOMING.

 

for the O.P.--champions online failed so many ways,opening day MEGA NERFS,the whole agro system, the FACES were just horrid, game world and story  and basically eveything was just too cartoony.

glad to be home.

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

...That's supported by a multinational corporation, that presumably has a paid staff and is still making content updates? Compared with 2,400 at the same time period for an illegal game that was created and released in 2004, which officially shut down in 2012, and is being supported by players and an unpaid staff?

 

To be fair, in my understanding, the CO staff is tiny.  If it's 10 actual people (and not just a bunch of interchangeable hats), I'd be shocked.

 

 

3 hours ago, The Philotic Knight said:

I think that this pretty much proves beyond a reasonable doubt which superhero MMO is the greatest. Our very own beloved City of Heroes.

You KNOW it brother!

[Ironscarlet]

I alpha tested Champion online and the art was really bad a lot of bugs  and just chaos at the start. I gave it a chance 2 yrs ago and it warped into a great game I loved the freeform concept but looking for team system was bad. Content was bad and the art was still bad. That being said if it had the art and LFG system of COH it might have worked. 

 

I liked COH better because its has a fun factor I just cant explain. What they made in 2002 worked thry made that awesome yum yum sauce its not to grindy, I can jump on find a quick group get my fix and get off. It feels like a game and not a job. Also you get a connection to you character that is a needed in a MMO and I believe it becomes your character in the vast amount of option you have to create them. Champion online had this customization, but it was not as fun to play in my opinion because of the art. For this reason people start Champion but not many stay. With COH you want to play again every one needs breaks but for example you take a break 6 months go by and something makes you remember COH again you want to play it, 6 months go by on Champion Online and I don't feel the same way.

Edited March 21, 2020 by Ironscarlet

[Snarky]

I played CO after the Snap.  I cannot say I wanted to like it, but I wanted something real bad.  It...felt small.  Then I did a freeform and ….yeah.  So. Game Over.  Then I went to Wow.  Because, after all, I wanted something really bad.

[Rikis]

I liked the game well enough, but since you can't play as your own created villain, I never actually spent money on it. Or more than a couple of hours. Shame.

[Coyote]

CO had a good "action style"... combat movement, attacks and how they're activated, etc. Everything else wasn't close to CoH, especially the stories.

[the_visviva]

I DO like the Nemesis system though. I used to suggest something similar in CoH. Heroes could go to a police station to see "Paragon's Most Wanted". Villains would go to "Rouge Island Bounties" And there, using Mechanics similar to AE they could craft a Nemesis. The Nemesis could then show up Randomly in Radio/Newspaper and Bank Missions.

[_NOPE_]

There *is* one mission in the game where you fight your "shadow self", so there's that. MAN it was tough as an FF Defender to beat another FF Defender. So. Much. KNOCKBACK! 

[biostem]

My thoughts, (in no particular order):

 

1. CO's freeform system is a double-edged sword - I find myself constantly tempted to just create tankmages all the time.

 

2. Because CO has you take an "energy builder" attack, you're basically shoehorned into a fairly boring attack, until you have enough energy to fire off the attack you actually want to use, (not always a big deal, but it's there).

 

3. With very few powers actually having a cooldown, it isn't uncommon that you pad out your build or otherwise take other powers, until you can get the actual attack power you want, and just spam it over and over again.

 

4. While the block mechanic is quite nice, I find it rarely rewarding to take an additional power to replace the default block.  There are a few that provide a bonus while you are using other attack powers, but they tend to cost a lot of advantage points to obtain said benefit.

 

5. There are many fantastic costume options and a wide ability to customize your character, but regular human faces just look off and the facial expressions system they have look awful.

 

6. Mez effects are nearly useless in CO.

 

7. Being able to target yourself, like point 1 above, is a double-edged sword;  Buffing abilities are generally balanced with this in mind, and rarely last more than a few seconds, and provide buff values that aren't that significant.

 

8. I love the variety of travel power available, but their function, (like how rocket boots have a faster in-combat & top speed, but need to ramp-up to their maximum speeds, while others can be charged to instantly put you at their maximum, but are slower in combat), means that if you want faster in-combat speeds, you must select certain animations.

 

I'm sure there are more, but I'll leave it at this for now...

[@Ghost]

5 hours ago, Dreamboat said:

I think if you look at stuff like the desert area that's a huge part of early game, I'd bet all my inf that was going to be some form of designated Hulk quest arc area.

I had always heard the stories that it was meant to be a Marvel MMO, and I had always thought it was extremely weird that the game had these random locales as their earliest beta zones.

 

It took me ages to put two and two together. The radioactive desert for Hulk, some remote place in Canada for Wolverine/Weapon X, Monster Island for the Savage Land. I suppose it could all be coincidence, but it definitely feels like they repurposed and reskinned things on a shoestring budget and just did the best they could.

[Ultimo]

I forgot about the Nemesis system.  That had (has) incredible potential, but they refuse to do anything with it.

 

That's the issue with THIS game, actually.  We can play as a Villain, but we don't really do anything villainous, and we're forever shoehorned in as lackeys to one or another NPC villain.  My CoV character, Lord Dire, is based on Dr. Doom, and should really be coming up with his OWN diabolical plans.  In fact, I once wrote up a lengthy AE story where he essentially takes over Arachnos, forcing the heroes to ally with Lord Recluse and his lieutenants to defeat Dire.  The final battle was epic, with the entirety of the Freedom Phalanx, Arachnos and every other major hero and Villain I could think of involved... until you take on Dire himself.  It's too bad we can't do this sort of thing with our own characters.

I once wrote up a detailed system that would let our Villain characters work toward some goal.  Essentially, you would choose a goal (eg. Conquer the world), then choose a method (eg. build an army of robots and conquer the world conventionally).  Once that was done, you would be provided with a list of objectives to accomplish this goal (eg. Raid metalworks for materials, computer shops for circuitry, assembly plants for machinery, and so on).  These objectives would take considerable time to accomplish, and notably, could be assigned to OTHER PLAYERS, allowing you to hire other people to do missons for you.  As you get closer to completing your objectives, you'll encounter more and more resistance from more and more powerful heroes.  Once you were done with all the objectives, you would have the materials needed to accomplish your goal.  You would enter the "final mission," where you would be facing the most powerful of foes as they try to stop you.  Notably, you're NOT supposed to win this mission.  If you manage to do so, you would trigger a major event WORLDWIDE (eg. the army of robots would invade every zone, everywhere), which would persist for a while before being finally defeated.  You yourself would be promoted to ARCH VILLAIN during this time, and flagged as PvP active, regardless of where you were.  Once the event ended, all would return to normal, and you could start again.

 

I don't know how feasible this would be, but this was back in the old days with the original dev team.  Still, an attractive idea, I think.