Difficulty in CoH: Community Discussion

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

AT specific Defense softcaps (somehow). Tanks and Brutes 95%. Everyone else in a range between 80% and 90%.

I guess you could do that by starting squishy ATs off with negative defense values.

[tidge]

On 3/29/2020 at 2:22 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

What are your thoughts?

I rank the game's difficulty as 'just right'.

 

I understand that it is possible to 'breeze through' the 'end-game' content with investment in certain builds, but that doesn't make me think the game is too easy. After all, we have many players asking for improvements in certain powersets and ATs! I think the challenge is where you look for it.

 

When I'm feeling like one of my builds is having too easy of a time with certain missions, I will mix things up by using Ouroboros to solo some low-level missions with a large team size. Even without increasing difficulty or adding enemy buffs, low level content can be challenging without all the lvl 50 powers and the bonuses from the 20+ IO sets.

 

There is more to the difficulty than just having tougher fights. It isn't easy to get folks on PUGs to coordinate for certain badges. I am also not a fan of simply making enemies more frustrating to defeat. I get bored with AV/GM fights that go on for 15+ minutes. I appreciate that such a challenge exists, but it isn't really for me.

[Linea]

I say it's just right.  It's easy enough for novices that want to play the simpler easier game, and at the same time there's plenty of room for optional self-imposed challenge.

 

Not everyone is playing the same game.  Or, we don't all play this game the same way.   Perspective and play-style matter.  If you made the game difficult for me, you'd make it unplayable for 95% of the player-base. 

 

• I'd love to see more difficulty settings:  +8x16 ... I have artificially played +9x8, and find it a nice challenge.   +11 however, is too hard, with minions being almost like AVs.
• Increased difficulty should also have increased reward.  Then perhaps, more people would play optional increased difficulty content.
• If you want a challenge, go to AE and search '801', then solo (or team) any of those arcs +4x8. 
  • What is 801:  A) it's where I test all my builds solo +4x8.  B) It's "What's Next?" for Tier 4 Incarnates.  C) It's intended as a mission for a team of 4-5 Incarnates.   Something that someday I may make a series of "Incarnate Radio Missions" out of.
  • I will be making more of these, applying the same mechanics and designs to other combat groups like: Council, Longbow, Malta, Carnies, etc ...
  • How is 801 Designed
    • This was designed after talking to a couple of the devs for an hour or so about difficulty and power design ...
    • Incarnate To-hit, on average, but with some Snipers.
      • This varies up and down due to AE mechanic limitations.   If you grab a Defensive Amp you'll be above "Incarnate Average".  Without the amp you'll be below average.  There are snipers with greater increased to-hit, but also anything with an Aim mechanic will be standard to-hit most of the time.  All of the Rage Mechanic mobs are roughly Incarnate to-hit for 2 minutes on then several minutes of lower to-hit.  If you move fast you're facing full incarnates, if you move slow you're facing more normal non-incarnate to-hit levels.
      • Be aware, debuffs with incarnate to-hit levels are no joke.
    • High density mobs, with at least one +perception sniper in each group.  This means adds are always a potential issue.  It also means combat can be almost non-stop, and very intense.
    • A dangerous Buff/Debuff/Damage EB at the heart of about half the groups.
    • 1 in 4 bosses and Lts are:  Buff/Debuff, Damage/Debuff, AoE Damage, or Standard Damage.
      • This means that an average x8 spawn will have one 'dangerous' Boss and one 'dangerous' Lt.  The rest are more random.
    • There's a small chance of special Status Protected Snipers or T9 Armored Snipers in each group.  There are not many of these, but you'll definitely have to deal with a few of each sooner or later.
    • There are lesser LT and Minion Snipers in most x8 groups.
    • Every x8 sized group has at least 1 minion sniper with +perception.
    • Increased damage and armor on the softer targets.  I'd increase this further, but it is currently limited by AE mechanics.

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by Linea

[ZeeHero]

On 4/2/2020 at 9:57 AM, jubakumbi said:

Kicking people off of an MMO team is part of the llama drama I avoid by simply soloing.

I simply do not play online MMO type games to meet people, herd people, teach people, listen to people, or to really 'people' at all...I play to relax my mind and people usually just mess that all up... 🙂 

The fact is, in a game with actual challenge in the mechanics, people who dont pay attention deserve to be kicked if theres not a very good reason for it- and if it wont end soon they should take it on themselves to leave.

 

If you dont like kicking people for any reason, then you're certainly 100% with me that COH should not try to add this.

[Heraclea]

1 hour ago, ZeeHero said:

The fact is, in a game with actual challenge in the mechanics, people who dont pay attention deserve to be kicked if theres not a very good reason for it- and if it wont end soon they should take it on themselves to leave.

 

If you dont like kicking people for any reason, then you're certainly 100% with me that COH should not try to add this.

Those other games, the ones I left quickly, not only have misfeatures like elaborate boss fight choreography.  They also have other sorts of dramas like public loot, gear repair fees, and 'need or greed' rolls.  It seems to me that these mechanics all but guarantee an angry and elitist player base and constantly inject tedious drama into what ought to be a pastime.  The greatness of COH in large measure revolves around the fact that it allows group cooperative play without any of that junk. 

 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Heraclea
sp

[ZeeHero]

10 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

Those other games, the ones I left quickly, not only have misfeatures like elaborate boss fight choreography.  They also have other sorts of dramas like public loot, gear repair fees, and 'need or greed' rolls.  It seems to me that these mechanics all but guarantee an angry and elitist player base and constantly inject tedious drama into what ought to be a pastime.  The greatness of COH in large measure revolves around the fact that it allows group cooperative play without any of that junk. 

Lol, I dont know what game you had such a bad experience in but the community in FFXIV is better than anything on HC. At least on my data center that kind of stuff is far rarer than the dramas I see so often on HC.

 

its not a "misfeature" to have true mechanics, if anything COH's combat is a misfeature. definitely not a selling point for the game.

[Celestial_Fury]

The game certainly feel like it is easy at level 50 outside of some Incarnate trials.

 

HOWEVER, i would like to point out that most players and teams that i ever encounter go out of their way to fight the most trivial content for the fastest reward.

 

I do not see so many teams that enjoy tackling on Malta, Carnival, Rularuus and other annoying enemies that can actually crush you when they are +4.

 

Most of the time, level 50 teams i see everyday are pretty much 1 fully geared character carrying the rest of the team in missions specifically tailored so that it will be trivial and riskless for maximum reward. ( Council Missions and such for heroes that can negate most of their damage ).

 

I am personally not looking for bigger challenges but it is a lie to pretend that it does not exist. Most people simply avoid it.

 

[ZeeHero]

COH should not try too hard to add bigger challenges as I've said. COH strength is not in challenge or combat. it would be foolish to ruin what it is now becuase of people demanding it be hard.

[Wavicle]

I wouldn't object to increased rewards for certain more difficult enemy groups.

[Celestial_Fury]

1 minute ago, ZeeHero said:

COH should not try too hard to add bigger challenges as I've said. COH strength is not in challenge or combat. it would be foolish to ruin what it is now becuase of people demanding it be hard.

Exactly, we have something good going on and i do not want a game i love becoming like "these" other MMOs i stopped playing.

 

[ZeeHero]

Just now, Celestial_Fury said:

Exactly, we have something good going on and i do not want a game i love becoming like "these" other MMOs i stopped playing.

 

well thing is FFXIV is an excellent game, for an MMO its 100% the best there is right now. However COH is very old, and different to begin with. trying to make it like FFXIV would only end in awful failure and ruin it.

[Apparition]

58 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

well thing is FFXIV is an excellent game, for an MMO its 100% the best there is right now. However COH is very old, and different to begin with. trying to make it like FFXIV would only end in awful failure and ruin it.

 

I have heard great things about both FFXIV and its community.  Sadly, I very much dislike the fantasy genre.

[ZeeHero]

5 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

I have heard great things about both FFXIV and its community.  Sadly, I very much dislike the fantasy genre.

At least its not bland fantasy. It's full of magitek and lasers, nigh all powerful space robots, and dragons who are aliens.

 

Not to mention a time travelling sentient giant robot fortress.

Edited April 5, 2020 by ZeeHero

[Wavicle]

I thought of another possibility that might be a little more feasible.

Give Special IOs, Set Bonuses, and maybe even Incarnate Powers each a score, invisible to players, that stacks.
Then have mission difficulty (probably via mob Damage, HP, and Accuracy, but not ToHit) scale with that score.

This way the game stays as it is for people with SO builds but gets harder for everyone else, and scales with their actual Builds.


You could even make having your missions react to this score an optional setting.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Wavicle

[Grouchybeast]

39 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I thought of another possibility that might be a little more feasible.

Give Special IOs, Set Bonuses, and maybe even Incarnate Powers each a score, invisible to players, that stacks.
Then have mission difficulty (probably via mob Damage, HP, and Accuracy, but not ToHit) scale with that score.

This way the game stays as it is for people with SO builds but gets harder for everyone else, and scales with their actual Builds.


You could even make having your missions react to this score an optional setting.

So I'm playing in a duo.  I have IOs, they have SOs.  Difficulty?

 

I'm playing in a duo.  I have IOs, they have SOs, but they're level 40 and I'm a side-kicked level 20.  Difficulty?

 

I'm in a team of eight.  Two of the players are on SOs, six are on IOs.  Difficulty?

[Wavicle]

17 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

So I'm playing in a duo.  I have IOs, they have SOs.  Difficulty?

 

I'm playing in a duo.  I have IOs, they have SOs, but they're level 40 and I'm a side-kicked level 20.  Difficulty?

 

I'm in a team of eight.  Two of the players are on SOs, six are on IOs.  Difficulty?

Yes, I thought about that sort of situation.

 

Perhaps an average of all the teams scores?

 

Perhaps Options...team average, mission holders score, or classic?

[Lines]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Yes, I thought about that sort of situation.

 

Perhaps an average of all the teams scores?

 

Perhaps Options...team average, mission holders score, or classic?

I think this is a bit of a swing and a miss.

 

Part of the solution is to not force particular difficulty levels onto anyone, but give people more options with which to control difficulty and challenge themselves, particularly in ways that test high level, endgame-build characters. I dunno if this solves anything for anyone.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Lines said:

I think this is a bit of a swing and a miss.

 

Part of the solution is to not force particular difficulty levels onto anyone, but give people more options with which to control difficulty and challenge themselves, particularly in ways that test high level, endgame-build characters. I dunno if this solves anything for anyone.

This suggestion doesn’t do precisely that? Offer expanded difficulty options?

[Lines]

Just now, Wavicle said:

This suggestion doesn’t do precisely that? Offer expanded difficulty options?

It would mean that if I wanted to make sure I was always pushing myself, I'd have to always team with other fully IO'd people to get the highest average score. Teaming with SO'd people would bring the average team difficulty down.

 

It would be very hard to feel in control of those options if there's an invisible meta score to try and keep track of.

 

At least, that's how I'm interpreting the idea.

[Wavicle]

37 minutes ago, Lines said:

It would mean that if I wanted to make sure I was always pushing myself, I'd have to always team with other fully IO'd people to get the highest average score. Teaming with SO'd people would bring the average team difficulty down.

 

It would be very hard to feel in control of those options if there's an invisible meta score to try and keep track of.

 

At least, that's how I'm interpreting the idea.

I see what you're saying. There's something of a matter of perspective there, but I understand your point nonetheless.

[ZeeHero]

10 hours ago, Wavicle said:

I thought of another possibility that might be a little more feasible.

Give Special IOs, Set Bonuses, and maybe even Incarnate Powers each a score, invisible to players, that stacks.
Then have mission difficulty (probably via mob Damage, HP, and Accuracy, but not ToHit) scale with that score.

You could even make having your missions react to this score an optional setting.

It'd damn have to be. some people enjoy being rewarded for their work building a character by feeling unstoppable. no need to ruin it.

[Blastit]

4 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

It'd damn have to be. some people enjoy being rewarded for their work building a character by feeling unstoppable. no need to ruin it.

Actually being unstoppable might not be a good idea, though. If you simply want to feel unstoppable you could just make a def-based character and run missions at -1x8.

 

 

 

I feel like people are contorting themselves into looping pretzels to come up with all manners of exotic optional difficulty systems in order to accommodate an IO system that lets you build overpowered characters. Adding invisible scores to IOs so that the sets don't actually make your character too much stronger is such a silly idea. If you feel that you have to suggest that, just decrease the numerical bonuses that the sets give so that you can no longer build characters that render support and crowd control sets irrelevant.

[skoryy]

19 minutes ago, Blastit said:

I feel like people are contorting themselves into looping pretzels to come up with all manners of exotic optional difficulty systems in order to accommodate an IO system that lets you build overpowered characters. Adding invisible scores to IOs so that the sets don't actually make your character too much stronger is such a silly idea. If you feel that you have to suggest that, just decrease the numerical bonuses that the sets give so that you can no longer build characters that render support and crowd control sets irrelevant.

So make support and crowd control mandatory instead?  Since when in the history of CoH has that been a thing?

[Galaxy Brain]

4 minutes ago, skoryy said:

So make support and crowd control mandatory instead?  Since when in the history of CoH has that been a thing?

Flipside, talking with the SG about this last night, essentially the only meta relevant sets for both either debuff enemies, boost stats not normally touched by IOs, or offer lots of damage with their control. If you dont check those boxes you feel superfluous in high end teams.

[Blastit]

15 minutes ago, skoryy said:

So make support and crowd control mandatory instead?  Since when in the history of CoH has that been a thing?

I didn't suggest that.