Please add new difficulty levels

[Galaxy Brain]

5 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

In the end though, we still have the issue of building a character designed to trivialize 99.9% of the game.
Then complaining that the game's trivial now..

This is definitely an issue as those types of characters can blow past team content. However, that stems from a root of the average player IMO being much stronger than the content was designed for.

[Naraka]

13 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Define "gimped" in a way that is both grammatically correct, usage-correct and inoffensive.

And I'm not talking about a build that "happens to use some IOs".
I'm talking about the heavily min-maxed builds (such as some of the stuff I've been known to turn out).
There's an actual qualitative (and definitely quantitative) difference.
So no.  I won't stop using it, as the usage is correct.

Then you're attacking a strawman.  I didn't say anything about needing heavily min/maxed optimized builds AND you don't even need such a build to make the content trivially easy in most cases.

 

So you can either use a better term to describe your disagreement with my point or you can stop strawmaning and wasting your time.

 

And by "gimped" I'm talking about some intentional flaw either left open or self-imposed limitation that ignores taking certain powers.

 

17 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Insert <HUMOR> tags...
Trying to keep it light without talking down to anyone.
 

Again, you and I are talking about COMPLETELY different things when we're talking about heavily optimized builds.
You seem to think that the mere presence of IOs is "heavy optimization".
And I'm talking about a build relying on a complex confluence of bonuses and special effects SPECIFICALLY designed to trivialize 99.9% of the content in the game.

 

It'd be embarrassing for someone.  Especially if replying to something that was not said, or even intended.

Considering the quote from the original post of yours I quoted, I suppose the advice was also in jest.

 

My argument was, part of the game is building up your character.  It's the same as creating a costume, writing a bio and meshing with a team.  Saying "don't use heavily optimized builds" commits both the flaw of telling a player not to play the game, essentially AND assumes you need a "heavily" optimized build for this to be a problem.  I don't assume anything by your terms, I'm criticizing the premise of your position because regardless of what you actually said, I'm also taking into consideration what you actually meant as well as what can be assumed by others.  

 

[Hyperstrike]

5 minutes ago, reib said:

A Blaster can take alpha, can heal themself (and others), can have enough defence to avoid almost any hit, can have 3 Holds in some case, and lol with incarnate can have more damage, more heal and -regen or -res too. Than why i have to add a tank and a empath to my team? Just add Blasters and more blasters and you are fine. I done a ITF with a team of 6 blasters only. was One of the faster TF i ever seen. You really don't think this Is broken? 

And i absolutely dont care about rewards. I only talk about FUN and CHALLENGE. It Is a game and any good game Need those two components.

Honestly, no.  I don't see this behavior as "broken".
One of the things the game was praised for was blowing up the "Holy Trinity".
And if every last team member is 100% interchangeable and play is always absolutely identical, regardless of team loadout...where's the fun?

So yes, superteams of blasters or controllers can be high danger, high damage affairs.
Where superteams of tanks or brutes will be low danger low damage affairs that take a bit longer.

I used to play Pirates of the Carribbean Online.
When I played there was one class.  Pirate.
And while there were skill trees, there weren't enough skills to REALLY differentiate a leveled-out pirate from any other.

I'd MUCH rather NOT see that here.

And, as has been pointed out, simply blowing up the +/x scale accomplishes nothing.
Unless you're talking about rebalancing the game to uber-IO builds.

At which point, I'll fight it to the death.

[Hyperstrike]

6 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

This is definitely an issue as those types of characters can blow past team content. However, that stems from a root of the average player IMO being much stronger than the content was designed for.

Again, it is not the fault of the game that you have built something to negate every threat structure in the game.

Prevalence is simply a function of player volume over time.

[ShardWarrior]

10 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Honestly, no.  I don't see this behavior as "broken".
One of the things the game was praised for was blowing up the "Holy Trinity".
And if every last team member is 100% interchangeable and play is always absolutely identical, regardless of team loadout...where's the fun?

So yes, superteams of blasters or controllers can be high danger, high damage affairs.
Where superteams of tanks or brutes will be low danger low damage affairs that take a bit longer.

^ This right here.

[Greycat]

35 minutes ago, reib said:

Than why i have to add a tank and a empath to my team?

Because they are other players who enjoy those characters and this is often a social game.

And again, no AT is useless.

[Grouchybeast]

33 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

 

Generally what I'm talking about is a build designed to maximize survivability in any of a number of ways, usually relying on a complex confluence of set bonuses and special powers/conditions.

Not just finding one big bonus and "Rule of Five"ing it.
But chasing down multiple similar bonuses and taking all of them to a greater/lesser extent.

I am NOT talking about generic IO build with most of the desireable uniques in the game shoved in.

This sort of 'decent IOs with the nice uniques' build is exactly the sort of build that my duo partner and I are running.  We're going through Dark Astoria at the moment, and we're deliberate not slotting Incarnate level shifts because they make the game too easy.   It seems like a shame to be running content specifically designed to get Incarnate salvage, but not be able to use that salvage to make cool shiny things because it makes the game significantly less fun to play.

 

 

[Hyperstrike]

37 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

This sort of 'decent IOs with the nice uniques' build is exactly the sort of build that my duo partner and I are running.  We're going through Dark Astoria at the moment, and we're deliberate not slotting Incarnate level shifts because they make the game too easy.   It seems like a shame to be running content specifically designed to get Incarnate salvage, but not be able to use that salvage to make cool shiny things because it makes the game significantly less fun to play.

 

 

^^^^^
THIS!

[reib]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

Because they are other players who enjoy those characters and this is often a social game.

And again, no AT is useless.

Many people DONT enjoy play that AT's anymore because they FEEL useless. It Is a balancement problem, not a kindness problem. I don't think the answer can be "dont do a good build" and "be kind with other players". This Is not an answer and this game still have BIG balancement problems.

Edited March 31, 2020 by reib

[Troo]

Survivor mode or something similar:

 

Hardcore mode:

 

[Troo]

4 hours ago, reib said:

A Blaster can take alpha, can heal themself (and others), can have enough defence to avoid almost any hit, can have 3 Holds in some case, and lol with incarnate can have more damage, more heal and -regen or -res too. Than why i have to add a tank and a empath to my team? Just add Blasters and more blasters and you are fine. I done a ITF with a team of 6 blasters only. was One of the faster TF i ever seen. You really don't think this Is broken? 

And i absolutely dont care about rewards. I only talk about FUN and CHALLENGE. It Is a game and any good game Need those two components.

The Imperious Task Force is not the highest level content. It is level 35-50.

 

When a level 35 or even level 40 blaster only team does it...

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Troo

[Coyotedancer]

1 hour ago, reib said:

Many people DONT enjoy play that AT's anymore because they FEEL useless. It Is a balancement problem, not a kindness problem. I don't think the answer can be "dont do a good build" and "be kind with other players". This Is not an answer and this game still have BIG balancement problems.

 

Sorry, but you're not going to get to rebalance the game around high-end set-builds, much less min/maxed Incarnates... That's a bad idea, because in the process of making it a "reasonable challenge" for that set of players you'll end up turning the game into City of Dark Souls for EVERYONE ELSE.

 

Not everyone out there in the City teams. There are a lot of solo and duo/trio players.

 

Also, NOT everyone is running even a mediocre set-build. Most of *US* here on the forums take advantage of IOs... But we're not "typical". We're not a representation of the Average Player. Forum users never have been, and probably never will be, no matter how forgiving HC's market economy is. You have to recognize and accept that when you start looking at balance changes. 

 

You don't get to throw out the low-end and the middle-of0the-road just for the sake of entertaining the above-average much less the Bleeding Edge.

[Naraka]

15 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Not everyone out there in the City teams. There are a lot of solo and duo/trio players.

Is that not what the difficulty options are there for?  That players feel +4/x8 solo is a build goal might be a generosity of the current set-up and not intentional.

 

There's also the option of turning bosses off.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

Also, NOT everyone is running even a mediocre set-build. Most of *US* here on the forums take advantage of IOs... But we're not "typical". We're not a representation of the Average Player. Forum users never have been, and probably never will be, no matter how forgiving HC's market economy is. You have to recognize and accept that when you start looking at balance changes. 

I still would love to have some data mining on this, but I strongly believe what I said earlier about the average player most likely dabbling in IOs on HC. People playing the game nowadays either played it in the past or were introduced to it by a veteran who likely plays with the person and shows them the ropes, at least the vast majority IMO. Of those groups, they either just had experience with the system or are being taught about it, and the info is out there and naturally falls into a player's lap as they play.

 

The average forum user is a step above the average player most likely in terms of making builds and specific knowledge, but I dont think the "average" HC player in 2020 is that far behind.

[golstat2003]

15 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I still would love to have some data mining on this, but I strongly believe what I said earlier about the average player most likely dabbling in IOs on HC. People playing the game nowadays either played it in the past or were introduced to it by a veteran who likely plays with the person and shows them the ropes, at least the vast majority IMO. Of those groups, they either just had experience with the system or are being taught about it, and the info is out there and naturally falls into a player's lap as they play.

 

The average forum user is a step above the average player most likely in terms of making builds and specific knowledge, but I dont think the "average" HC player in 2020 is that far behind.

If you're talking about vets sure. New players . . . ehhhhh. I've seen too many complaints over just the last month that "getting IOs are too hard" or the "market is too hard to make inf on" to fully believe that new players have a good enough grasp on the IO system. Those of us who played this game on live years ago   . . . different story.

[Coyotedancer]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I still would love to have some data mining on this, but I strongly believe what I said earlier about the average player most likely dabbling in IOs on HC. People playing the game nowadays either played it in the past or were introduced to it by a veteran who likely plays with the person and shows them the ropes, at least the vast majority IMO. Of those groups, they either just had experience with the system or are being taught about it, and the info is out there and naturally falls into a player's lap as they play.

 

The average forum user is a step above the average player most likely in terms of making builds and specific knowledge, but I dont think the "average" HC player in 2020 is that far behind.

 

It may be a reflection of the server I play on, or just the different focus of the players I often find myself running with.... But from observation, the proportion of "Knows and enjoys tinkering with character builds, and can do it well" vs. "Not interested/not skilled/not really sure it's all worth the bother" people really doesn't seem that much different from the Live days. 

[Ruin Mage]

Good lord, another one of these threads. RECAP TIME AGAIN:

• The game is easy by design of Paragon Studios and Homecoming's Quality of Life changes (likely adopted from SCORE)
• +4/x8 is the end all be all because it's not as simple as making mobs level 56. 54 is the cap outside of Incarnate shifted mobs in iTrials/Dark Astoria/etc.
• Difficulty levels would just be number changes. Guess what would happen? We'd steam roll over +6 mobs, it would just be a little more tedious on bosses/AVs. No one in their right mind wants an hour long AV fight or close to it.

If the game is too easy, there are plenty of games out there to fulfill your desire for a challenge. CoH is not challenging anymore. It's an old game that has been figured out head to toe.
Homecoming, to my knowledge, does not have the capacity or power to turn the game on its head or deliver what people keep asking for in regards to "game too easy." and all the other related topics.

[SwitchFade]

12 hours ago, reib said:

Many people DONT enjoy play that AT's anymore because they FEEL useless. It Is a balancement problem, not a kindness problem. I don't think the answer can be "dont do a good build" and "be kind with other players". This Is not an answer and this game still have BIG balancement problems.

I'm sorry, but this honestly very exaggerated. To entertain a claim such as this I'm going to need some hard data as such,

 

1. Number of people in the sample you took

2. Number of ATs they have

3. Number of those ATs that have full io kit

4. Number of those ATs that are at 50+ incarnates

5. Your selection method for your sample population, to eliminate bias

6. Questions that eliminate bias

7. What content they "felt useless" in

8. How often they play and with whom

 

Without even half of that, you're espousing your own personal opinion, which I disagree with but respect, although it is not factual. Attributing it to a majority of a population is a mistake, at best.

 

I am happy to hear your evidence, though.

[ClawsandEffect]

16 hours ago, reib said:

A Blaster can take alpha, can heal themself (and others), can have enough defence to avoid almost any hit, can have 3 Holds in some case, and lol with incarnate can have more damage, more heal and -regen or -res too. Than why i have to add a tank and a empath to my team? Just add Blasters and more blasters and you are fine. I done a ITF with a team of 6 blasters only. was One of the faster TF i ever seen. You really don't think this Is broken? 

And i absolutely dont care about rewards. I only talk about FUN and CHALLENGE. It Is a game and any good game Need those two components.

 

And here's your problem right here. 

 

If the game is too easy, stop using Incarnate powers in content that was never designed with them in mind.  You may not realize this, but Incarnate powers were intended to be used in content that we never got to see because the game was shut down before Paragon Studios had a chance to actually design any of it.  Using Incarnates in regular game content is like taking a Top Fuel drag car to a friendly street racing event and complaining that no one can beat you. 

 

 

[reib]

18 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

I'm sorry, but this honestly very exaggerated. To entertain a claim such as this I'm going to need some hard data as such,

 

1. Number of people in the sample you took

2. Number of ATs they have

3. Number of those ATs that have full io kit

4. Number of those ATs that are at 50+ incarnates

5. Your selection method for your sample population, to eliminate bias

6. Questions that eliminate bias

7. What content they "felt useless" in

8. How often they play and with whom

 

Without even half of that, you're espousing your own personal opinion, which I disagree with but respect, although it is not factual. Attributing it to a majority of a population is a mistake, at best.

 

I am happy to hear your evidence, though.

Obviously i have no evidence, It was not a Murder or something like that but i Always liked to play trollers and empaths too but now i dont feel necessary. With 2 or 3 ppls full IOed in team i have no time to hold and my heal Is not needed. It Is something i feel every time i play that AT'S. With Blaster usually i have no time to use Aim+Bup, i shot my Nova without or Is to late. Yesterday night i played Miss Liberty TF with 7 random guys and was Crazy. Was only run and kill, run and kill...more similar to Mario Kart than CoX...

[reib]

6 minutes ago, ClawsandEffect said:

 

And here's your problem right here. 

 

If the game is too easy, stop using Incarnate powers in content that was never designed with them in mind.  You may not realize this, but Incarnate powers were intended to be used in content that we never got to see because the game was shut down before Paragon Studios had a chance to actually design any of it.  Using Incarnates in regular game content is like taking a Top Fuel drag car to a friendly street racing event and complaining that no one can beat you. 

 

 

It Is not incarnate problem. I have only few and at First stage. IO's making the big difference. I can have 40% defence WITHOUT incarnates. They are the cherry but i think IO's are the real "problem". And how you convince hundreds of players Who use It to dont? It Is not more smart making content or try to solve the problem instead to Say "dont use"?! Is not Just me. I dont play solo so much. It Is a mmorpg, It Is a Mass problem. "Dont do" It Is not smart, is illogical and dont work with 90% of players Who playing with. Sorry than but Always Say the same thing dont make that thing smarter. 

Edited March 31, 2020 by reib

[ClawsandEffect]

Just now, reib said:

It Is not incarnate problem. I have only few and at First stage. IO's making the big difference. I can have 40% defence WITHOUT incarnates. They are the cherry but i think IO's are the real "problem".

Then don't use them if you want the game to be more challenging. The game is perfectly playable without them, and was in fact designed to be played without them. 

 

IOs will never be removed from the game, so there's no help there. And adding more difficulty levels is problematic for other reasons already covered above. 

 

You want the game to be more challenging? Get a group of people together who will run characters with no IOs used. We have a thousand character slots, pretty sure one can be spared for a non-IOed character. 

[Greycat]

13 hours ago, reib said:

Many people DONT enjoy play that AT's anymore because they FEEL useless. It Is a balancement problem, not a kindness problem. I don't think the answer can be "dont do a good build" and "be kind with other players". This Is not an answer and this game still have BIG balancement problems.

This is not "kindness." This is acknowledging you share the game with other people. Not everyone cares that they're min-maxed doing 9000 DPS and the entire map falls down dead when they walk in. And where did I ever say "Don't do a good build?"

 

Again, no AT is useless. If you want to talk about individual sets feeling underpowered at various stages, that's a different conversation. But an AT is not a powerset, and part of the fun of the game is seeing how different primaries and secondaries interact and how that changes how you approach the game.

[reib]

11 minutes ago, ClawsandEffect said:

Then don't use them if you want the game to be more challenging. The game is perfectly playable without them, and was in fact designed to be played without them. 

 

IOs will never be removed from the game, so there's no help there. And adding more difficulty levels is problematic for other reasons already covered above. 

 

You want the game to be more challenging? Get a group of people together who will run characters with no IOs used. We have a thousand character slots, pretty sure one can be spared for a non-IOed character. 

Maybe you guys dont wanna understand (and i know my english Is so bad too). It Is not me. I see any lvl 50 in any team any night use It. Than if i use It or not make no difference. Answer that. How you convince any 50 player Who dont read forum to not use IO's and incarnates? It Is not more smart and logical try to do something Who can make that mechanics working? I feel stupid repeat same thing 10 times and have 10 times the same answer. IT IS A MASS PROBLEM. if you prefere think It Is not and i m the problem Is good for me. It Is ok, i only try to talk about a problem, Just that.

Edited March 31, 2020 by reib

[reib]

7 minutes ago, Greycat said:

This is not "kindness." This is acknowledging you share the game with other people. Not everyone cares that they're min-maxed doing 9000 DPS and the entire map falls down dead when they walk in. And where did I ever say "Don't do a good build?"

 

Again, no AT is useless. If you want to talk about individual sets feeling underpowered at various stages, that's a different conversation. But an AT is not a powerset, and part of the fun of the game is seeing how different primaries and secondaries interact and how that changes how you approach the game.

Ok. Tankers are useless now. You can do everything without. It Is a entire AT. All controller primaries are almost useless(i have many trollers and i like It). Defenders Who buffs defence are useless. Pure healing Defenders are useless. Only debuffer and some buffer make difference. If you dont see that maybe we dont play the same game...dont know.

Edited March 31, 2020 by reib