Discussion: Disabling XP No Longer Increases Influence

[ForeverLaxx]

49 minutes ago, parabola said:

I'm more inclined to think that sadly people are just not prepared to listen to any information that disagrees with what they already believe, or what they want to believe.

This is a problem with humanity in general, unfortunately. They'll act open to learning why they're wrong, but you have to provide evidence they haven't already dismissed. Problem is, they've dismissed all available evidence already so you're stuck. They'll continue believing what they want to believe, grumbling about it, to the end of time.

[Dazl]

4 hours ago, parabola said:

Maybe you can point out the part you find offensive because I'm not seeing it? He is speaking from a position of knowledge, addressing yet another post in this thread that is trying to claim that 'water isn't wet' in economic terms. And incidentally the post he is addressing is the one that contains the genuinely offensive material.

 

The only part of SwitchFade's post that I'm on the fence about is whether Uruare is genuinely motivated by nefarious intent or is simply repeatedly demonstrating ignorance of economics. I can understand reaching the conclusion he has given the time and effort he, myself and others have spent trying to explain how it actually works, only to see the same 'sky isn't blue' arguments in return. I'm more inclined to think that sadly people are just not prepared to listen to any information that disagrees with what they already believe, or what they want to believe.

It wasn't Switchfades's post, it was him quoting the offending post that made Jimmy hiding it pointless.

[Lines]

That post is still there. And it's fine. I think it's healthy to vent, and I think these discussions should happen. Ideally as civilly as possible.

 

Jimmy literally only hid a Zapp Brannigan quote and a picture of a pigeon. They will be missed.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Lines

[Li_Sensei]

15 hours ago, Blastit said:

Using the market doesn't create inf, it just moves it around. Things that create inf other than running farming missions include task forces or doing storylines. You could have a go at those.

Just to weigh in with an excessively pedantic note, marketeers actually *destroy* inf.

 

All those 10% market fees add up when you're moving billions about.

 

:edit: forgot to add, I don't marketeer, I find it tedious and not fun.  I do occasionally farm, but I do little enough of it that I personally don't mind the change.  55M inf (plus profits from drops) for 25-30 minutes "work" was absurd.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Li_Sensei
Forgot to add a point

[justicebeliever]

50 minutes ago, Li_Sensei said:

Just to weigh in with an excessively pedantic note, marketeers actually *destroy* inf.

 

All those 10% market fees add up when you're moving billions about.

 

:edit: forgot to add, I don't marketeer, I find it tedious and not fun.  I do occasionally farm, but I do little enough of it that I personally don't mind the change.  55M inf (plus profits from drops) for 25-30 minutes "work" was absurd.

See...marketeers are ebil.  They are destroying influence as part of their master plot to take over the world!!!!   Mua-ha-ha-ha!

[Peacemoon]

What do people spend their influence on that they need to be able to make so much in a short period of time? This is a serious question. My main is veteran level 20 something and just about to get the last epic I need to finish his build.
I’m a bit worried I will lose interest in him once it’s finished. But even those epics are only worth 20mill each. So... why do you need hundreds of millions of inf?

Just to be clear farming is still really profitable, and a lot of us didn’t even know there were ways of doubling or quadrupling it, which was a bit unfair on the rest of us, no? No wonder things cost so much influence?

[EmmySky]

12 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

What do people spend their influence on that they need to be able to make so much in a short period of time? This is a serious question. My main is veteran level 20 something and just about to get the last epic I need to finish his build.
I’m a bit worried I will lose interest in him once it’s finished. But even those epics are only worth 20mill each. So... why do you need hundreds of millions of inf?

Just to be clear farming is still really profitable, and a lot of us didn’t even know there were ways of doubling or quadrupling it, which was a bit unfair on the rest of us, no? No wonder things cost so much influence?

I have 2 full t4 full set and purple and bonuses and everything toons.  One of them cost about 500m.  The other, after all the respecs to fix her, cost at least 1 b.  I have 27 toons at 50+1 that have a few procs but mostly 50 common IOs, each cost between 25m and 50m.  I have 12 toons at 45 and 1 at 42 and 9 at 40.  Again with the assorted procs and level appropriate common IOs.  I have 7 new baby toons levels 15-32 that I havent even bothered really concentrating on yet.

 

And I don't even have a lot if you look at many other folks.  I think you can see how one player can actually use a giant vat of inf, especially if they are focused on tricking them out instead of just using common IOs like I tend to do.

Edited April 9, 2020 by EmmySky
It got me! The dreaded auto-correct! I'm dying!

[Lines]

14 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

What do people spend their influence on that they need to be able to make so much in a short period of time? This is a serious question. My main is veteran level 20 something and just about to get the last epic I need to finish his build.
I’m a bit worried I will lose interest in him once it’s finished. But even those epics are only worth 20mill each. So... why do you need hundreds of millions of inf?

I wonder the same thing. All my characters fund themselves. I normally have about 20-30 mil by level 30 and I market little and often with trash I happen to loot or with a handful of cheap trash recipes from the AH. If I equip enhancements as I go, sell what I don't need, I still end up with more money than I started with.

 

But then, I ignore purples and winter IOs in my builds (they can come later, if at all) and usually only have like three PvP IOs. I think each build costs about 150mil. I also solo or prefer smaller groups if I can, which I guess means more drops coming my way.

 

I guess it's different if you PL to 50 regularly and want to deck out the characters straight away, you'd notice the one big expenditure. But playing content and being a little bit considerate about how you use what you loot, it's easy to not make a loss.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Lines

[Gremlin]

2 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

I think you can see how one player can actually use a giant vat of inf, especially if they are focused on tricking them out instead of jusr using common IOs like I tend to do.

Exactly. If you have altitis and you want to create lots of fully specced 50s then leveling is no longer the limiting factor; generating inf is. I suspect that this is a minority sport.

[Peacemoon]

Just now, Gremlin said:

Exactly. If you have altitis and you want to create lots of fully specced 50s then leveling is no longer the limiting factor; generating inf is. I suspect that this is a minority sport.

I think it is a minority sport. Especially since IO enhancements are optional to begin with, and then trying to fully deck out your character on top of that.
Maybe like Lines said, people are used to power leveling to 50, dumping 1billion on a character, getting bored, and doing the same again. They’re almost a victim of their own actions..

 

I wouldn’t care, but arguably if people can create that much influence in such a short period of time than it negatively effects everyone else when prices go up. And you have to buy yourself into wealth by selling stuff on the AH to get the sort or levels of inf you need to then buy what you need.

I think farming is profitable enough as it is without any sly ways to double/quadruple income. So all in all, a good change by HC devs. So.. why have we taken 45 pages to come to this conclusion? 🤔 Lol

 

 

[EmmySky]

7 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

I think farming is profitable enough as it is without any sly ways to double/quadruple income. So all in all, a good change by HC devs. So.. why have we taken 45 pages to come to this conclusion? 🤔 Lol

 

 

Because people will argue with a brick wall if given half a chance, and some people want to stomp their feet and 'woe is me' where everybody can hear/see them.  😝

 

Alas...I forgot one of the most important ways I burn through influence.  COSTUMES!  Mama needs a new pair of shoes, and pants, no make that a skirt, with a lightning aura, no a smokey aura, and a jacket, ooooo hats!

Edited April 9, 2020 by EmmySky

[ivanhedgehog]

13 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

I should probably mention again, for posterity's sake, that these factors of economics, supply chain dynamics and financial metrics are what I hold a degree in and my vocation; I'm not just debating opinion here, this is well established mathematical principle...

This is still not real life. The exploit needed fixing. This did nothing to change the fact that there is a huge pool of inf(not money by the way, influence) existing that this change did nothing to reduce. As a way of reducing cash inflow it did pretty good. As a way of fixing the problem of characters with huge inf totals it did nothing. And all of the economic metrics, non of which measure "fun", can address whether the change affected fun or not. He values his fun more than he values your economics and vice versa. thats why you will never agree.

[MunkiLord]

15 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

This is still not real life. The exploit needed fixing. This did nothing to change the fact that there is a huge pool of inf(not money by the way, influence) existing that this change did nothing to reduce. As a way of reducing cash inflow it did pretty good. As a way of fixing the problem of characters with huge inf totals it did nothing. And all of the economic metrics, non of which measure "fun", can address whether the change affected fun or not. He values his fun more than he values your economics and vice versa. thats why you will never agree.

But is addressing huge pools of influence the goal? Unless we see a huge spike in prices causing people to dip into their pile, does the hoarded influence matter at all? I'm not an economist so I may be way off base here, but isn't the influence in circulation what we should care about since hoarded influence doesn't actually do anything at all?

[Gremlin]

I guess that those who hoard inf are effectively removing it from the economy and therefore reducing inflation.

[Myrmidon]

1 hour ago, EmmySky said:

Because people will argue with a brick wall if given half a chance, and some people want to stomp their feet and 'woe is me' where everybody can hear/see them.  😝

 

Alas...I forgot one of the most important ways I burn through influence.  COSTUMES!  Mama needs a new pair of shoes, and pants, no make that a skirt, with a lightning aura, no a smokey aura, and a jacket, ooooo hats!

I would not be adverse to another dozen costume slots.

[Peacemoon]

2 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

But is addressing huge pools of influence the goal? Unless we see a huge spike in prices causing people to dip into their pile, does the hoarded influence matter at all? I'm not an economist so I may be way off base here, but isn't the influence in circulation what we should care about since hoarded influence doesn't actually do anything at all?

Exactly, there’s no good way for the HC devs to get rid of hoarded influence. You just have to turn the tap off (or down) and wait for most of it to balance itself out. The main thing is to have a level playing field, which this bug was not allowing. 
 

Either that, or we tax players or a certain level of wealth. If you have more than 200 million on your character/account all inf is earned is taxed - but this is not a road we want to go down.

 

Basically, who cares if someone has billions of influence. It’s not like they can buy a mansion, sports car, and live a life of luxury. They only have access to the same enhancements the rest of us do.

[Peacemoon]

6 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

I would not be adverse to another dozen costume slots.

If you wanted to be really evil then costume changes would cost a % of current influence rather than a standard fee, and start introducing more of that sort of charge to things, for example AH costs.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Peacemoon

[Myrmidon]

15 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

If you wanted to be really evil then costume changes would cost a % of current influence rather than a standard fee, and start introducing more of that sort of charge to things, for example AH costs.

 Transfer the influence that is on the character elsewhere and have free costume changes? I’m in!

[ivanhedgehog]

35 minutes ago, MunkiLord said:

But is addressing huge pools of influence the goal? Unless we see a huge spike in prices causing people to dip into their pile, does the hoarded influence matter at all? I'm not an economist so I may be way off base here, but isn't the influence in circulation what we should care about since hoarded influence doesn't actually do anything at all?

They said they were addressing "income inequality". This change really didnt affect that. It changed inf generation but that wasnt the reason for the change. Good or bad can be debated, but that isnt the actual question. The income gap didnt change. Are marketeers just hoarding their banks? are farmers just hoarding their banks? Are their 10s of thousands of toons sitting there with 20 mill + or - sitting there that havent logged on in 6 months?  Inflation happens when too much liquid cash is in circulation. We have various opinions as to what prices will do in the next few months and the AH last 5 prices tool is not very helpful. Just think if you had to bid on what your groceries would cost when you got to the cashier.  One of the issues is the 2x xp/zero inf tokens. They act as a deflationary force because they prevent inf generation. Maybe make something like that that makes a 50 get more incarnate and vet  xp and drops in exchange for 50% inf generation? That would reduce inf generation while still giving a valuable reward.

[ivanhedgehog]

46 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Exactly, there’s no good way for the HC devs to get rid of hoarded influence. You just have to turn the tap off (or down) and wait for most of it to balance itself out. The main thing is to have a level playing field, which this bug was not allowing. 
 

Either that, or we tax players or a certain level of wealth. If you have more than 200 million on your character/account all inf is earned is taxed - but this is not a road we want to go down.

 

Basically, who cares if someone has billions of influence. It’s not like they can buy a mansion, sports car, and live a life of luxury. They only have access to the same enhancements the rest of us do.

So you are saying that this change had no purpose? "who cares"?

[Peacemoon]

27 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 Transfer the influence that is on the character elsewhere and have free costume changes? I’m in!

Haha I did think about that, and it would turn into an arms race of players vs the devs, which is exactly why we shouldn’t go down that road. I mean, it would be a shame if there was a 7 day delay on inf transfers through email... 😆

[Peacemoon]

2 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

So you are saying that this change had no purpose? "who cares"?

Reread the first paragraph you’re quoting 

[Lines]

2 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Maybe make something like that that makes a 50 get more incarnate and vet  xp and drops in exchange for 50% inf generation? That would reduce inf generation while still giving a valuable reward.

That's a pretty solid idea.

 

You unlock that stuff really quickly as it is, though, but still good.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

This is still not real life. The exploit needed fixing. This did nothing to change the fact that there is a huge pool of inf(not money by the way, influence) existing that this change did nothing to reduce. As a way of reducing cash inflow it did pretty good. As a way of fixing the problem of characters with huge inf totals it did nothing. And all of the economic metrics, non of which measure "fun", can address whether the change affected fun or not. He values his fun more than he values your economics and vice versa. thats why you will never agree.

Sigh.

 

That's not how economics works.

 

Currency not currently in circulation is not available and cannot be considered, thus is not a contributing factor to either inflation or deflation. Further, it has no impact on supply, demand, determinates of either or market basket pricing trends. Currency being added or removed is another matter.

 

For example, since one seems necessary again, when a regulating entity such as the federal reserve decides to control aspects of economic flux, such as inflation, it will use one of several tools. In this example, that would be issuance of a "bond," which is a note. This note (or IOU) has a face value, possibly coupon rate, a maturity date and other characteristics. The note will also have a yield to maturity (YTM).

 

The basic principle: inflation is growing too fast, remove money from circulation. How? Issue federal bond, someone buys bond.

 

What does this do? I gave my money to the federal reserve In exchange for a promise to repay me at some later date. The Fed takes my money and holds it. This is key, HOLDS it, does not redistribute it to others.

 

This money is now OUT of circulation, reducing the total amount of currency in circulation, DEFLATING the economy. That's the point, inflation causes an increase in the market basket of goods, especially so in an economy where all goods are normal and substitutable. This change restrains inflation, normalizing pricing.

 

What you're discussing is an entity increasing circulating currency, which is another issue, one which requires a different solution, such as currency revaluation, price fixing, subsidization, taxation, penalty, sanction or seizure.

 

By the way, currency, money, exchange measure, unit of value, etc are the same principle and debating semantics does not negate immutable principles of economic math, where the basic principles of human barter and exchange exist using an exchange intermediary.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by SwitchFade

[lemming]

Disclaimer: Haven't looked at the code, so I expect that this is more complicated than a simple fix, hence why the devs went with the current.

 

Turning off XP should get an influence boost equal to the amount of XP without any boost based on outside factors.  (2xp from the P2W, various day jobs, patrol, etc)

Only item to possibly factor in would be debt reduction.