It's time to recognize Domination is bad.

[tidge]

Just now, ScarySai said:

As for the ATO thing, it would be nice if the fiery orb was actually useful, or replaced with something useful.

For the record, I don't think Dominators are the only ones who suffer from 'lack of ATO choice': It has always struck me as odd that both Tanker ATOs are damage-based, as there are primaries that can't slot them at all.

 

Now, about my little Fiery Orb: I found this to be most useful at lower levels specifically to take aggro. At higher levels (once Defense values are significant) that particular aspect is less important, but it still takes aggro. At x8 incarnate content I use the Orb(s) to judge how much damage I could be taking. I agree that it is difficult (aside from logs) to tell if it is doing anything else.

 

The only issue I have with the Fiery Orb (and to a lesser extent the Controller's Energy Font) is a variant of the issue I have with the Winter ATO procs (and Lore pets): I avoid those choices if the special FX don't otherwise match the concept of the character. Some customization would be nice, but I have no idea how we could customize the visual effects spawned by an Enhancement.

[Lines]

23 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

As for the ATO thing, it would be nice if the fiery orb was actually useful, or replaced with something useful.

Yeah, that ATO is totally replaceable for me. I've heard people loving it, especially when they can fire off a few at once, but since none of my Doms are fire type characters I just can't bring myself to use it.

 

Do ATOs count in the cottage rule?

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Lines said:

 

Do ATOs count in the cottage rule?

Nothing really counts as cottage rule tbh

[AngriestGhost]

10 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

If Domination were made into a toggle it would be an interesting change. Will it happen, who knows? 

The Domination bar deteriorates fast enough that it pushed folks to find way to make it perma, when IOs first made it possible to get enough recharge to do so.

 

One other suggestion I've previously seen (not in this thread) is to take all the benefits and move it into the AT's various powers. I"m not sure how feasible that is with the amount of manpower HC has.

 

EDIT: Domination reminds me of Champions Online's mechanic of having to build up END to be able to use your stronger powers. (Even more so than Fury). Which I don't like. Interestingly in that game players find a way around that mechanic also.

I'm warming up to the idea of Domination as a toggle.  Perhaps it could only drain the bar while active   You could set it and forget it if you like it try to actively manage it for when you want it most 

[Chance Jackson]

On 4/15/2020 at 1:14 PM, Vanden said:

No, no I don't think this is a good idea.

 

Absurd. A permadom outperforms any character with basic enhancing by a wide margin.

 

People don't like that aspect of Dominators, how is maintaining that a pro?

 

How is that different from building for the defense softcap?

 

This section just doesn't make sense. The only click a permadom needs is Domination, and they probably have Hasten, too. That's two clicks. Two is too many?

Say "two" & "too" out loud; need I say more? 😂

[Noyjitat]

On 4/18/2020 at 7:34 PM, Naraka said:

Or just reapply it before it expires because the duration is long enough to cover the recharge, especially if you have global recharge >_>

Yep

[Noyjitat]

23 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

If Domination were just a toggle of some sort I'd be fine with that.

Too radical of a change and also I'd mind because I like getting my endurance restored to 100% everytime domination activates.

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

Too radical of a change and also I'd mind because I like getting my endurance restored to 100% everytime domination activates.

Nearly forgot about that aspect. That's a good counter point. Maybe as having domination on as a toggle your end would auto refill for ever x seconds or x minutes you have it on. Or it would proc a total refill of your end, or proc an increase of your end of about 50-75%. Or the more control you use while it's toggled on the faster it fills up. Just some ideas.

[srmalloy]

22 hours ago, AngriestGhost said:

I'm warming up to the idea of Domination as a toggle.  Perhaps it could only drain the bar while active   You could set it and forget it if you like it try to actively manage it for when you want it most 

Another possibility is to give Domination a microscopic recharge time while keeping the requirement for having a full domination bar to activate, and activating Domination empties the bar. If you're making enough attacks to refill the bar before Domination runs out, then you are effectively permadom. The amount that attacks contribute to the domination bar can be adjusted to make that more or less difficult as needed. It doesn't remove the benefits of global recharge, because all your powers recharging faster means that you can attack more, but it's not so fundamental to a build that you have to squeeze it until it screams to get enough global recharge.

[Redlynne]

Domination was designed for the game pre-Inventions.  That means no set bonuses, and thus no global recharge for powers other than Hasten.  We didn't even have Incarnates back then (and we liked it!).  Under those conditions, Domination is fine when the access to recharge buffing is necessarily limited.  I forget if perma-Domination was even possible to do prior to Inventions (I think it wasn't) and the Archetype was balanced around the notion that Domination was a "sometimes" factor that couldn't be made perma.

 

I repeat, for clarity ... Domination itself is fine.

 

The problem is all of the global recharge enhancement that made it possible to achieve perma-Domination after the introduction of Inventions.

 

Perma-Domination is the abomination.  Being able to refresh Domination before Domination expires is the problem ... because it gives you "something for nothing" when you can achieve perma-Domination.  You get all of the upsides and none of the downsides.

 

It's the ability to perma the Domination factor that is broken ... not Domination itself.

 

 

 

Easiest way to fix that, with no wiggle room for workarounds, would be to prevent the Domination bar from filling while Domination is up, thereby making it IMPOSSIBLE to achieve perma-Domination.  Global recharge enhancement would give you a better uptime on Domination, but you'd never be able to get to 100% uptime like you can with perma-Domination ... because you could only fill the Domination bar while Domination is DOWN, not while it's UP.

[tidge]

IIRC, Enhancement Diversification was implemented in the same issue that released City of Villains (issue 6?) and IOs were something like issue 9.

 

While I appreciate the bluntness of Redlynne's post, I can't offer a 'like' as it is calling for a nerf of Domination by calling for the prevention of Permadom. The post should be congratulated for a higher level of self-consistency than I see in the many posts asking for fundamental changes to the way Domination works that allow for Permadom under radically different circumstances.

 

Personally I don't think that Permadom is 'something for nothing', as it requires the initial filling of the bar (small hurdle, but it is there nonetheless) and it requires serious consideration of not just power choices but also the slotting of the power choices to achieve Global Recharge. As demonstrated in the Dominator forum (and in the game itself) there are many different ways to this, and chasing Global Recharge does mean that PermaDoms must sacrifice in other areas.

[nihilii]

24 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

I forget if perma-Domination was even possible to do prior to Inventions

It was definitely possible. Getting enough kins (or rads) on the team to get your Dom to perma was a big thing back then; especially as one of the early LRSF strategies was to bring a Mind Dom on the team to permasleep AVs and let you fight them one at a time.

[Redlynne]

26 minutes ago, nihilii said:

It was definitely possible. Getting enough kins (or rads) on the team to get your Dom to perma was a big thing back then; especially as one of the early LRSF strategies was to bring a Mind Dom on the team to permasleep AVs and let you fight them one at a time.

Ah yes, team synergy.  I was thinking in terms of the soloist able to perma-Domination in the build planner.

32 minutes ago, tidge said:

calling for a nerf of Domination by calling for the prevention of Permadom.

That's because in the context of this topic, the problem isn't Domination itself ... but is rather the ability to perma the Domination power.  Being able to (re)cast Domination "too quickly" so as to achieve permanent 100% uptime is the response that I would have to the subject of the topic.  I wanted to be clear about the "shape" of what I would define as the problem, and then once that "shape" is revealed ... what are you prepared to do about it (if anything) and why ... so that you can then start to make informed decisions about the merits of different approaches to grappling with the issue (including absolutely nothing at all).  It's only when you can clearly see the options, and the implications of those options (including doing absolutely nothing different) that the true sense of what is as stake becomes clear.

[tidge]

3 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

I wanted to be clear about the "shape" of what I would define as the problem, and then once that "shape" is revealed ... what are you prepared to do about it (if anything) and why ... so that you can then start to make informed decisions about the merits of different approaches to grappling with the issue (including absolutely nothing at all).  It's only when you can clearly see the options, and the implications of those options (including doing absolutely nothing different) that the true sense of what is as stake becomes clear.

/em salute

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Easiest way to fix that, with no wiggle room for workarounds, would be to prevent the Domination bar from filling while Domination is up, thereby making it IMPOSSIBLE to achieve perma-Domination.  Global recharge enhancement would give you a better uptime on Domination, but you'd never be able to get to 100% uptime like you can with perma-Domination ... because you could only fill the Domination bar while Domination is DOWN, not while it's UP.

I'm not in disagreement but I can also say a compromise might be a better offer than just outright gutting it.  You know, players adapt and so the game evolves and all that jazz.

 

Back a few pages, I suggested allowing for perma-Domination but to keep the "burst power" feel of the AT, put separate modes within domination: upon clicking it, you get the full powered domination with a free END bar, mez protection, double mag mezzes/increased duration mezzes but this is fueled by the domination bar that will slowly deteriorate.  Using attacks and controls will slow down the decay but the max duration will be 90sec.  Once the bar is dry, you lose the double mag mezzes/increased duration and only get the mez protection.  If Domination is available before it expires, you can click it again for more END and continued mez protection but without the bar, no double mag mezzes.  Ideally, if you wanted to leverage the higher control, you wait until the bar is full to click Domination, but if you want to stay protected, you click it on recharge.  Those that don't have perma-dom sort of don't have a choice, they can only click it when it's available.

 

I've heard people say Dominator without perma-dom is garbage and just have to wonder, what about all the powers that aren't affected by domination?  Earthquake and Ice Slick can still neutralize a spawn, Arctic Air Conductive Aura can still mitigate foes while you attack, Carrion Creepers and Singularity can divert mobs' attention and none of those are affected by Domination.  Heck, if there's another control AT on the team, you can just stack your efforts to duplicate double mez and focus on damage.  I can see the mez protection being the ulterior motive in all this (which is why I kind of would like go keep that as the prize here) but even that is pretty OP, all things considered.  What other AT gets mez protection that effective with all those other benefits and no downside?  Tankers, the guys that mostly don't have multi-spawn AoE mass mez/nukes?  

Edited April 20, 2020 by Naraka

[kenlon]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

That's because in the context of this topic, the problem isn't Domination itself ... but is rather the ability to perma the Domination power. 

I would have to disagree - the problem is not with the ability to permanently have up Domination, but with the gap in-between perma and not-quite-perma. 

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, kenlon said:

I would have to disagree - the problem is not with the ability to permanently have up Domination, but with the gap in-between perma and not-quite-perma. 

Ah, so the problem isn't the forest ... it's all of these damn trees! 

[kenlon]

41 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Ah, so the problem isn't the forest ... it's all of these damn trees! 

No, I just disagree with you on whether having Domination up all the time is bad.

 

Frankly, Dominators should have just had the mez resist and mag increase baked into their base powersets, rather than having it dependent on a clickie. But if it's going to be on a click power, then that power should not have a situation where having 122% global recharge leaves you with a thirty second plus downtime, and 123% means no downtime ever.

Edited April 20, 2020 by kenlon

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, kenlon said:

if it's going to be on a click power, then that power should not have a situation where having 122% global recharge leaves you with a thirty second plus downtime, and 123% means no downtime ever.

So ... having a downtime for Domination is okay?

Or are you trying to argue that Domination should have no downtime ever, regardless of global recharge buffing?

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, kenlon said:

No, I just disagree with you on whether having Domination up all the time is bad.

 

Frankly, Dominators should have just had the mez resist and mag increase baked into their base powersets, rather than having it dependent on a clickie. But if it's going to be on a click power, then that power should not have a situation where having 122% global recharge leaves you with a thirty second plus downtime, and 123% means no downtime ever.

That the extra mez power is reserved in a click that you have control of using is what makes Dominator's inherent (domination double-mag mezzes) different from Controller's inherent (containment chance for +1 mag).  As for having mez protection baked into the powerset, in what way?  Having mez protection granted upon casting a mez?

 

As for not having a situation where global recharge of certain magnitudes having drastically different outcomes, I think that's what the OP is trying to push to iron out.  Problem is, the only way to make progress is to admit there is a problem.  Having armor-level mez protection at all times and an effect that causes click mez powers to completely eclipse any other control AT at all times on top of mid-to-high levels of damage output layered ontop of other goodies like free endurance bar if you just get the magic number of recharge bonus is a problem?  Eh...I'm sure it's fine.  I mean, Blasters can get capped defense and stuff and Controllers get OP effects from stuff like Time Manipulation/Nature Affinity, right?  And Tankers/Scrappers/Brutes have been unkillable for years so it's aight...

[BluWitch]

I was going to read more of this thread, but TBH, didn't enjoy the presumptuousness of this idea that 'bad' is an objective judgement and not actually nearly always subjective.

 

I'm not very good, nor do I want to be, at micromanaging all of the little min/max details and numbers but I have 3 lv50 (non-perma) Doms so far, they rank among my favorite characters (especially my Dark/Dark) and playing each them is "subjectively" really a ton of fun for me, even though only one has incarnate stuff so far. (side note- I don't really play solo very much, or want to)

 

Anyways, off to make Dom #4 (plant?idk) and then go team up, escape reality, and have as much fun as subjectively possible!

[...]

On 4/15/2020 at 11:02 AM, Replacement said:

If you like current Domination because it requires you to be "this tall to ride" in regards to knowing IOs well enough to Permadom, your opinion is not welcome here.

The goal is to see Domination become accessible without impacting the performance of people who already enjoy their Dominators.

 

You definitely started off on the wrong foot here. Tempted to just /jranger.

 

Anyway, I mostly play dominators. Domination is fine. Permadom is a strong buff with that you have to work toward.

 

But it's not as if you can't use domination before you have 90% global recharge. Your thinking is too binary. Yes, permadom is gravy. But domination is still great before permadom.

 

What I would like to see is synaptic overload and ground based effects (static field, etc) affected by domination. That would be a lovely change. I'd absolutely fall in love with electric control then.

 

But I suppose my opinion isn't welcome here. 

[kenlon]

7 hours ago, Redlynne said:

So ... having a downtime for Domination is okay?

Or are you trying to argue that Domination should have no downtime ever, regardless of global recharge buffing?

Having a downtime on Domination isn't the issue. The issue is that if you have 123% global recharge you have no downtime at all. If you have 122% global recharge, you don't have "almost perma" Domination, like you would with other powers (Short a few percent on Dull Pain/Hasten/Practiced Brawler, etc? You'll eat a few seconds of downtime, then the power is back up.)

 

Instead, you have to then build the domination bar back up from scratch, delaying you significantly longer. That discontinuity is the problem with the implementation of Domination. It behaves unlike all other long duration click buffs in the game.

[Replacement]

14 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Easiest way to fix that, with no wiggle room for workarounds, would be to prevent the Domination bar from filling while Domination is up, thereby making it IMPOSSIBLE to achieve perma-Domination.  Global recharge enhancement would give you a better uptime on Domination, but you'd never be able to get to 100% uptime like you can with perma-Domination ... because you could only fill the Domination bar while Domination is DOWN, not while it's UP.

Sadly, this wouldn't work. At least, as specified here. Right now, Domination stays full while Domination is up and only empties out whenever your character passes to the state of "Domination=false".

 

What you would need to do to achieve what you've said here is to a) change Domination to empty on activation and b) go a step further and prevent it from refilling while active.

 

This is... Significantly more impactful than what I was proposing (which was just part A).  I don't think I would want to start at a point so drastic.

 

@Vooded I think we're getting close to the point of fixing things like Synaptic Overload with the new pseudopet tech being rolled out, fingers crossed.

5 hours ago, BluWitch said:

I was going to read more of this thread, but TBH, didn't enjoy the presumptuousness of this idea that 'bad' is an objective judgement and not actually nearly always subjective.

Would it help if I clarified that it's bad design?  It's extremely powerful, actually, but the sudden binary tipping point is bad from a game design standpoint. Novice players don't know that they they can completely change their power scale, Veteran players have to choose between neat and optimized... And most importantly, there's no smooth progression between these extremes (these issues exist for other builds, but none of them have a 1% recharge tipping point).

[Grouchybeast]

5 hours ago, kenlon said:

Having a downtime on Domination isn't the issue. The issue is that if you have 123% global recharge you have no downtime at all. If you have 122% global recharge, you don't have "almost perma" Domination, like you would with other powers (Short a few percent on Dull Pain/Hasten/Practiced Brawler, etc? You'll eat a few seconds of downtime, then the power is back up.)

And Redlynne's proposal would fix that.  If it's impossible to perma Domination, then the whole issue of almost-perma being significantly worse than perma no longer exists.  Everyone uses Domination as it was originally designed, a situational click buff.

 

You can say 'I want to keep perma Dom as a general principle of any changes', but you can't claim that Redlynne's solution doesn't fix the issue of haves and have-nots.  It absolutely does.