[v3.0.1 and v3.1.0] Super Reflexes/Martial Arts ... NO GET HITSU!!

[Caulderone]

3 hours ago, Bopper said:

SR is not my cup of tea for tanks (I like them on Scrappers since they have lower Resistance caps), but for thematic builds it looks fun and strong. I'm always down for tank-trolling builds. 

The immortality scores across the board for a SR tanker built for resists is so nice, though.  As long as you don't mind being at 30% HP, anyway.

 

Edit:  Occurred to me I should note that this is for my SR/Fire and not for Redlynne's build(s).

SR Survival 30hp.ods

Edited April 25, 2020 by Caulderone

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

The immortality scores across the board for a SR tanker built for resists is so nice, though.  As long as you don't mind being at 30% HP, anyway.

SR Survival 30hp.ods 32.79 kB · 0 downloads

Yes! Someone who uses the tool lol. You might be the only one :). 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Caulderone said:

The immortality scores across the board for a SR tanker built for resists is so nice, though.  As long as you don't mind being at 30% HP, anyway.

SR Survival 30hp.ods 32.79 kB · 1 download

 

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Yes! Someone who uses the tool lol. You might be the only one :). 

 

I just sat at max aggro at max diff to figure that one out. 🙂 And 30% is too low when the tank AT +damres and scaling damres IO are also taken into account.

[Caulderone]

43 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And 30% is too low when the tank AT +damres and scaling damres IO are also taken into account.

That setup includes the value from the scaling IO and one stack of SMotT.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

That setup includes the value from the scaling IO and one stack of SMotT.

 

Hmm. Guess I cruise with more stacks.

[Redlynne]

I need something clarified, because I just spotted a potential opportunity that it would be a shame to pass up.

Specifically ... swapping the slotting of the Tanker ATO sets between Storm Kick and Dragon's Tail.

 

The reason why I put Might of the Tanker into Storm Kick and and Gauntleted Fist into Dragon's Tail was an effort to help ensure that the lower proc chances for Gauntleted Fist would proc more reliably against multiple $Targets so as to put up the Absorb shield for mitigation.  However, I'm now wondering if doing that was a mistake.  I just ran a mockup of the differences between swapping the sets around and got the following results.

 

Original:

Quote

Storm Kick: Might of the Tanker (4.0 PPM)

•     4.0 * ((6 / ( 1 + 29.25 / 100 )) + 0.83) / 60 = 36.48% @ Level 10
•     4.0 * ((6 / ( 1 + 95.90 / 100 )) + 0.83) / 60 = 25.95% @ Level 50

T2 Storm Kick = 0.83s/1.056s Cast/Arcanatime + 2.25s Recharge @ Level 27 for 5.04 endurance cost

 

Storm Kick: Superior Might of the Tanker (5.0 PPM)

•     5.0 * ((6 / ( 1 + 99.88 / 100 )) + 0.83) / 60 = 31.93%

---

Dragon's Tail (max 10): Gauntleted Fist (2.0 PPM)

•     2.0 * ((14 / ( 1 + 58.80 / 100 )) + 1.50) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 8 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 30,000))) = 18.10% @ Level 15
•     2.0 * ((14 / ( 1 + 99.48 / 100 )) + 1.50) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 8 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 30,000))) = 14.94% @ Level 50

T6 Dragon's Tail = 1.5s/1.716s Cast/Arcanatime + 5.04s Recharge @ Level 27 for 9.72 endurance cost

 

Dragon's Tail (max 10): Superior Gauntleted Fist (3.0 PPM)

•     3.0 * ((14 / ( 1 + 104.35 / 100 )) + 1.50) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 8 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 30,000))) = 21.98%

 

Reversed Slotting:

Quote

Storm Kick: Gauntleted Fist (2.0 PPM)

•     2.0 * ((6 / ( 1 + 58.80 / 100 )) + 0.83) / 60 = 15.36% @ Level 10
•     2.0 * ((6 / ( 1 + 99.48 / 100 )) + 0.83) / 60 = 12.79% @ Level 50

T2 Storm Kick = 0.83s/1.056s Cast/Arcanatime + 2.16s Recharge @ Level 27 for 5.04 endurance cost

 

Storm Kick: Superior Gauntleted Fist (3.0 PPM)

•     3.0 * ((6 / ( 1 + 104.35 / 100 )) + 0.83) / 60 = 18.83%

T2 Storm Kick = 0.83s/1.056s Cast/Arcanatime + 2.07s Recharge @ Level 27 for 5.04 endurance cost

---

Dragon's Tail (max 10): Might of the Tanker (4.0 PPM)

•     4.0 * ((14 / ( 1 + 29.25 / 100 )) + 1.5) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 8 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 30,000))) = 43.27% @ Level 10
•     4.0 * ((14 / ( 1 + 95.90 / 100 )) + 1.5) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 8 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 30,000))) = 30.34% @ Level 50

T6 Dragon's Tail = 1.5s/1.716s Cast/Arcanatime + 5.28s Recharge @ Level 27 for 9.72 endurance cost

 

Dragon's Tail (max 10): Superior Might of the Tanker (5.0 PPM)

•     5.0 * ((14 / ( 1 + 99.88 / 100 )) + 1.50) / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 8 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 30,000))) = 37.30%

T6 Dragon's Tail = 1.5s/1.716s Cast/Arcanatime + 4.91s Recharge @ Level 27 for 9.72 endurance cost

 

Here's the real quandry that I've got regarding this deciding which option is superior ... and I need some clarification to complete the decision on this.

 

Might of the Tanker has a higher probability to proc in Dragon's Tail than it does in Storm Kick ... 30.3-43.3% vs 26-36.5% pre-Superior and 37.3% vs 32% when Superior ... meaning that when chasing Resistance buffing, putting Might of the Tanker into Dragon's Tail is CLEARLY the superior choice!  However, this begs the question of how many procs per activation can be achieved when Might of the Tanker is slotted into a PBAoE attack like Dragon's Tail?  Does it work like Force Feedback where you can only get one proc per power activation?  Or is it a case where because the procs can stack that you can net more than one proc per activation in an AoE power like Dragon's Tail (given enough $Targets to roll enough proc chances against)?

 

Might of the Tanker stacks up to 3x ... and with the original slotting of putting it into Storm Kick, it is exceedingly unlikely that 3 stacks of the proc will ever occur (particularly when used in attack chains that last 8-9 seconds per rotation!).  At best, 1-2 stacks of the +Resist (All) proc would happen, and the time duration in which the 2x proc stacking would be happening would be rather fleeting (~2 seconds at most) just because of the "shape" of the attack chain(s) involved.  However, if Might of the Tanker can proc more than once per power activation, putting it into Dragon's Tail instead becomes the brain dead obvious choice since that's just about the ONLY way that this build is going to be able to "saturate" the concurrent 3x proc potential ... which would be a non-trivial amount of +Resistance added, as @Bopper has been at pains to point out in the context of use of Rune of Protection.  Except here we're talking about adding +5-10% (non-Superior) to +6.7-13.4% (Superior) Resistance (All) relative to the alternative slotting in Storm Kick with a LOT higher uptime than what I'd ever be able to achieve out of allocating more slots to Rune of Protection (I'm thinking closer to 100% uptime in $Target Rich Environments when using Dragon's Tail for multi-procs) ... which is MORE additional Resistance than I'd be able to get out of adding slots to Rune of Protection with a 34% uptime.

 

Keep in mind that Might of the Tanker offers +5% (non-Superior) or +6.7% (Superior) Resistance vs All for 10 seconds and can stack up to 3x ... meaning as much as +15% or +20.1% Resistance when fully saturated.  THAT is truly non-trivial quantities of additional +Resistance for a Super Reflexes Tanker!

 

The flipside to this would be that the chance to proc the +Absorb shield in Gauntleted Fist would be dramatically reduced ... by about HALF and would in fact proc relatively rarely compared to having Gauntleted Fist slotted into Dragon's Tail.  However, if the +Absorb only lasts for 15 seconds, that's essentially enough time for at least 4 proc chances per Absorb duration when using the Single Target without Eagle's Claw attack rotation, in which Storm Kick gets used every ~4 seconds.  Doing the math, in the worst case scenario (Level 50 non-Superior) with a 12.79% proc chance per attack, 4 attacks sums up to a 42.16% overall chance that one of those attacks will successfully proc the Absorb shield ... while in the best case scenario (Superior) with a 18.83% proc chance per attack, 4 attacks sums up to a 56.60% overall chance that one of those attacks will successfully proc the Absorb shield ... which isn't as terrible as it might have seemed from the start.  And ideally, of course, relatively few hits are going to be "leaking" through your Defenses so each Absorb proc will be relatively "sturdy" in that regard.

 

 

 

But compounding all of those factors ... and I'm not sure if this is the way that it works ... is ...

 

Is damage dealt to an Absorb shield factoring in your Resistances before applying damage to the Absorb shield?

 

Because if so ... then obviously the way to magnify/maximize the amount of damage that an Absorb shield can "soak" for you is to increase your Resistances ... which is exactly what this whole slot swapping thing would do.  Being able to add up to +15% to +20.1% Resistance vs All just by using Dragon's Tail would, in multiple contexts, EASILY balance out the reduced proc chances per attack (but greater opportunities over the same time span) of swapping the ATO sets between Storm Kick and Dragon's Tail, in addition to all of the increased damage reduction going on when the Absorb shield either hasn't procced or was ablated away by a big hit.

 

And at THAT point you're starting to look at nudging towards Resistances close enough to the hardcap for a Tanker that you can close the gap to 90% with Resistance Inspirations ... on a Super Reflexes/Martial Arts Tanker ... who is good at Leadership blended with a pinch of Sorcery.

 

 

 

So ... anyone have any answers before I update the build posts yet again?

And yes, @Bopper is again at fault for me even contemplating this entire line of thinking.  I'd just like to know if the presumptions I've been making here are borne out by how the game actually functions game mechanically, if that's already known.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Redlynne

[Bopper]

@RedlynneI am glad you asked the question because I was working off of incorrect information. I thought the Chance for Res proc would proc multiple times if used in an AoE. I apparently am wrong or very unlucky. I went on test server to check it out and despite being swarmed by enemies (practically saturated) and using Footstomp about 5 times, I only saw the +Resistance proc once per application. Good news, it was reliable, similar to how FF +Rch proc works...it only needs to hit once. The Absorb proc on the other hand seems to do something odd. I don't think it stacks, but also, I don't think it replaces. So if you have an absorb shield from the ATO, and it hasn't worn off yet, another ATO proc will do nothing. I can't confirm that just yet, but every time I try to get the absorb shield to stack or simply replenish, it never does.

 

I'll keep you posted if I find out anything different, but I hope that helps.

 

Edit: Follow up, ok, it's seems not only will is not replace/replenish the absorb shield when the absorb shield is active, but if seems to have a complete timeout of the proc. So if the shield dies within whatever the duration is (15-20 seconds?), you still won't get another absorb proc until after that duration ends. Kinda lame.

Edited April 26, 2020 by Bopper

[Bopper]

33 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

 

Keep in mind that Might of the Tanker offers +5% (non-Superior) or +6.7% (Superior) Resistance vs All for 10 seconds

I believe it's 20 seconds, actually. When I slot it in a damage aura in target-rich environments, I can reliably achieve x2 stacks, which makes sense now that I know it can't proc more than once (I would have thought x3 should have happened more often, but it was typically x2).

[Bopper]

35 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Is damage dealt to an Absorb shield factoring in your Resistances before applying damage to the Absorb shield?

Yes, Damage Resistance applies to damage to an absorb shield. So if you have 90% resistance, the shield takes only 1/10th the damage.

[Bopper]

Sorry for the spams, I should have consolidated the response in one post, but got too excited to test and wanted to share results right away before I finished reading your entire post. FWIW, I think swapping the slotting is a good idea. Having a reliable +resistance proc in an AoE synergizes well with SR as your biggest problem with SR, and to use your words, is to "chuck lot's of dice". Having a lot of enemies attack you, some will get through. But countering that by reliably building up your Resistance against those many enemies is good, and you should be able to maintain 2-3x stacks given how often Dragon's Tail is off cooldown. And now that I'm seeing the issues with Absorb, all the more reason to not waste it in an AoE that has a quick recharge. You can put it in a low probability to proc attack and once it does fire, you know it won't proc again anyways for quite some time.

[Redlynne]

6 minutes ago, Bopper said:

@RedlynneI am glad you asked the question because I was working off of incorrect information. I thought the Chance for Res proc would proc multiple times if used in an AoE. I apparently am wrong or very unlucky. I went on test server to check it out and despite being swarmed by enemies (practically saturated) and using Footstomp about 5 times, I only saw the +Resistance proc once per application. Good news, it was reliable, similar to how FF +Rch proc works...it only needs to hit once. The Absorb proc on the other hand seems to do something odd. I don't think it stacks, but also, I don't think it replaces. So if you have an absorb shield from the ATO, and it hasn't worn off yet, another ATO proc will do nothing. I can't confirm that just yet, but every time I try to get the absorb shield to stack or simply replenish, it never does.

 

I'll keep you posted if I find out anything different, but I hope that helps.

That helps tremendously!

 

So if the +Resistance proc is limited to one proc per use of power then the only advantage to putting it into Dragon's Tail is an increased proc chance per use but stacking to 3x deep becomes problematic due to the delays between uses of Dragon's Tail.  In which case, the best opportunity to build multiple stacks is to use Storm Kick as often as possible ... which is only possible in the current slotting arrangement when using the single target without Eagle's Claw attack chain where Storm Kick is being used repeatedly every ~4 seconds.  Under those circumstances it is possible (although unlikely) to reach 3x stacks for brief periods of time (~2 seconds worth).

 

Conversely, the best place for the +Absorb proc winds up being in Dragon's Tail so as to proc a non-stacking Absorb on a delayed tempo where if the Absorb lasts for 15 seconds you want to have an attack chain that takes over 7.5 seconds to finish animating in which Dragon's Tail gets used once per rotation so as to only miss "1 chance instead of 2" due to the timing of the rotations.

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I believe it's 20 seconds, actually. When I slot it in a damage aura in target-rich environments, I can reliably achieve x2 stacks, which makes sense now that I know it can't proc more than once (I would have thought x3 should have happened more often, but it was typically x2).

Hmm ... then why does the tooltip in Mids' show a 10s duration?  Is the 10s number a PvP vs PvE setting?

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Sorry for the spams, I should have consolidated the response in one post, but got too excited to test and wanted to share results right away before I finished reading your entire post. FWIW, I think swapping the slotting is a good idea. Having a reliable +resistance proc in an AoE synergizes well with SR as your biggest problem with SR, and to use your words, is to "chuck lot's of dice". Having a lot of enemies attack you, some will get through. But countering that by reliably building up your Resistance against those many enemies is good, and you should be able to maintain 2-3x stacks given how often Dragon's Tail is off cooldown. And now that I'm seeing the issues with Absorb, all the more reason to not waste it in an AoE that has a quick recharge. You can put it in a low probability to proc attack and once it does fire, you know it won't proc again anyways for quite some time.

So ... not the answers or reasons I was looking for, but if the +Resistance stacks last for 20s instead of 10s then having an attack chain that cycles within ~8s or so turns into a pretty good compromise, although a 6.7s rotation time would obviously be ideal.  However, that gets to be hard to achieve without putting Hasten into the build (which COULD be done by dropping either Vengeance or Victory Rush).  Still, that's about 3 layers deep in meta of build strategizing at that point.

 

But yes ... TREMENDOUSLY HELPFUL @Bopper ... as always.

I'll post the update with the swap in ATO slotting sometime tomorrow.

[Caulderone]

I've always thought of it like this.

 

I want the Absorb early in the fight (lots of minions) to help eat the alpha and or give me a regen window, depending on the timing.  Hence, putting it into one of my 2 PBAoEs.  FSC got Armageddon for the Purple proc, so Combustion got SGF.

 

I want the +Resist in long hard fights vs a small number of the remaining hard hitting enemies.  I'm more likely to be using ST attacks and maybe not be using any AoEs at all.  Hence, Incinerate got Hecatomb for the purple damage proc, and then I had the choice of SMotT in either Scorch or Fire Sword.  I went with Scorch, even though its proc chance is lower, because it literally goes off twice as often.  The average procs over time was higher in Scorch due to this.

 

That may not be the right way to do it, but it was my take on it.

[Bopper]

I actually see both Redlynne and Caulderone point in choosing where you go with the absorb and resist proc. Redlynne, you have set attack chains and if you're not planning to spam dragons tail, you shouldn't change that plan because of the proc. And Caulderone makes a great point that the Absorb is better thought of as an Alpha absorber, and having that while 16 enemies attack you at once is a good idea. In the end, both options are good, so go with whatever you think is best for your gamestyle.

[Redlynne]

27 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

I've always thought of it like this.

 

I want the Absorb early in the fight (lots of minions) to help eat the alpha and or give me a regen window, depending on the timing.  Hence, putting it into one of my 2 PBAoEs.  FSC got Armageddon for the Purple proc, so Combustion got SGF.

 

I want the +Resist in long hard fights vs a small number of the remaining hard hitting enemies.  I'm more likely to be using ST attacks and maybe not be using any AoEs at all.  Hence, Incinerate got Hecatomb for the purple damage proc, and then I had the choice of SMotT in either Scorch or Fire Sword.  I went with Scorch, even though its proc chance is lower, because it literally goes off twice as often.  The average procs over time was higher in Scorch due to this.

 

That may not be the right way to do it, but it was my take on it.

 

21 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I actually see both Redlynne and Caulderone point in choosing where you go with the absorb and resist proc. Redlynne, you have set attack chains and if you're not planning to spam dragons tail, you shouldn't change that plan because of the proc. And Caulderone makes a great point that the Absorb is better thought of as an Alpha absorber, and having that while 16 enemies attack you at once is a good idea. In the end, both options are good, so go with whatever you think is best for your gamestyle.

 

Also good advice on deciding what to put where (and why).

 

However the counter to that is the fact that the attack chains I'm planning on using tend to put use of Dragon's Tail towards the front after use of Storm Kick.

Storm Kick to boost Defense by +10% (All) then Dragon's Tail for mass Knockdown(age) to blunt the incoming alpha strike.

The only real question is whether Storm Kick gets used once or twice per rotation and whether Dragon's Tail gets used once or zero times per rotation (depending on single target vs multi-target).  So under those conditions, keeping Might of the Tanker in Storm Kick for a high(er) proc chance for +Resistance that can wind up being used 5 times per 20 seconds on single target rotation without Eagle's Claw so as to "fight defensively" against a single hard $Target winds up having more merit on balance than swapping slots.  There simply aren't any attack chains available in which Dragon's Tail would be getting used more than 3 times per 20 seconds without radically changing the build from where it has settled.

 

The deciding factor then becomes the best way to achieve a mix of combat longevity (low net endurance loss over time) while generating the highest probability chances to proc +Resistance as often as possible to mitigate incoming damage to the greatest extent possible, with Absorb procs essentially being "bonus" or extra mitigation layered on top of that.  In this case, the higher tempo of proc opportunities in Storm Kick outweighs the advantage of higher proc chances in Dragon's Tail.

 

Or to put it in apples to apples terms ... Storm Kick gets used EVERY combat rotation (sometimes more than once!), while Dragon's Tail does not have the same quantity of opportunities to attack, even if Dragon's Tail will hit more $Targets per attack.  Against a single target 2 attacks at a 32% chance to proc (each) is better than 1 attack with a 37% chance to proc within the same animation time span ... and it's against the strongest and most powerful of single targets that having a better chance at a deeper stack of +Resistance becomes the most valuable.

 

 

 

So definitely glad I explored the option on this one, but given which proc effects I would rather have tied to which power usages ... I guess I'm going to stand pat with my original ATO slotting after all.

 

Because Quantity has a Quality all of its own ... particularly when relying on the Chuck Lots of Dice!! strategy to augment your build design strategems.

[Redlynne]

MAJOR UPDATE posted.

So major in fact that I needed to reorganize the posted build(s) in order to be able to fit them into the available space I'd reserved.

 

LINK

 

The incredibly huge change that I made was ... dropping Cobra Strike entirely out of the build so as to move those slots into Thunder Kick(!) ... which then enabled a rewrite of the attack chains and ... the build got BETTER because of it!  Totally wasn't expecting that result.

 

The HUGE factor that is all too easy to overlook is that pairing Storm Kick and Thunder Kick together makes it possible to use both of those powers TWICE per attack rotation in EVERY circumstance, effectively increasing the overall defensive/resistant potential of the build at a slight (and therefore acceptable) cost to Stun stacking potential (but with added Knockdown potential to help compensate).

 

To vastly oversimplify what I found ... "It's all connected, man..."

 

 

 

So I've edited everything to put the v3.0.1 Cobra Strike version in first followed by the v3.1.0 Thunder Kick variant to make cross-comparisons of relative merits easier to manage.  At this point, I'm feeling pretty darn confident that the Thunder Kick invested build is superior to the Cobra Strike one for reasons that are NOT apparent at a first glance of the build in the planner, simply looking at power picks and slots.

 

Oh and switching to Thunder Kick allowed me to move Rune of Protection earlier into the build and pick it up by Level 32.

You're welcome, @Bopper.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Redlynne

[Redlynne]

Okay ... I simply MUST toot my own horn about something here.

 

 

So I spent the past few days consolidating INF(ormation) on Redlynne (who is a Praetorian and still only Level 15, but is finishing the last story arc before moving on to Neutropolis) so as to respec into the v3.1.0 Thunder Kick version of this build (with only Level 15 slotting) and was able to put together the full 6-slotting for Thunder Kick and Storm Kick and then take the build out for a spin (against Syndicate in the Power arc).

 

Now, prior to the respec, I'd had Thunder Kick, Storm Kick and Cobra Strike, but the slotting in those attacks had been pretty anemic, due to lack of slots and wimptacular enhancement values (and because I'd been slotting up my defenisve toggles first as per prior build strategies).  While soloing, fights were a slog (for what ought to be obvious reasons) and would usually cost me about 1/4 to 1/2 of my endurance bar by the time that each fight would end.  Those fights were VERY safe however, because I'd been slotting up my defensive toggles.

 

So, previously my offensive potential had been weak.  Now with the respec, 10 out of 14 added slots by Level 15 have been spent on Thunder Kick and Storm Kick and OH MY GOODNESS what a difference this has made!  Here's the slotting again:

 

 

Level 1:    Thunder Kick    

•  (A) Overwhelming Force - Accuracy/Damage
•  (9) Overwhelming Force - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
•  (9) Overwhelming Force - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
•  (11) Overwhelming Force - Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown
•  (11) Pounding Slugfest - Damage/Endurance
•  (13) Pounding Slugfest - Disorient Bonus

Level 2:    Storm Kick    

•  (A) Might of the Tanker - Accuracy/Damage
•  (3) Might of the Tanker - Damage/Recharge
•  (3) Might of the Tanker - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
•  (5) Might of the Tanker - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
•  (5) Might of the Tanker - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
•  (7) Might of the Tanker - Recharge/Chance for +Res(All)

 

Since I could I simply went ahead and bought everything as Attuned except for the Pounding Slugfest Stun proc (because the proc didn't need to level shift).  And just look at the set bonuses I get for that!

 

Overwhelming Force
(Thunder Kick)

• 12% (0.94 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 3% DamageBuff(All)
• 28.11 HP (1.5%) HitPoints

Pounding Slugfest
(Thunder Kick)

• 8% (0.62 HP/sec) Regeneration

Might of the Tanker
(Storm Kick)

• 2% DamageBuff(All)
• 35.14 HP (1.88%) HitPoints
• 7.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 4.5% Resistance(Toxic,Psionic), MezResist(Immobilized) 7.5%, MezResist(Held) 7.5%, MezResist(Stunned) 7.5%, MezResist(Sleep) 7.5%, MezResist(Terrorized) 7.5%, MezResist(Confused) 7.5%
• 5.25% Resistance(Smashing,Lethal), MezResist(Immobilized) 8.75%, MezResist(Held) 8.75%, MezResist(Stunned) 8.75%, MezResist(Sleep) 8.75%, MezResist(Terrorized) 8.75%, MezResist(Confused) 8.75%

That's +20% Regeneration just from Thunder Kick alone ... +3.38% HP between the two of them ... and an additional +5% Damage, just from those slots.

But the REAL kicker (ahem!) was how the combination PLAYED ... because it was just poetry in motion.

 

 

 

To back up just for a moment, I had contemplated putting 5 slots of Kinetic Combat plus the Pounding Slugfest Stun proc into Thunder Kick, but the set bonuses didn't add all that much value to the build overall and the recharge factored into the Kinetic Combat set would lower the proc chance for both the Knockdown AND the Stun procs, reducing the value added from both.  However with the 4+2 combination of Overwhelming Force with Pounding Slugfest, not only did I manage to achieve a much higher +Regeneration AND +Max HP buff (thereby compounding the Regeneration gain!) than I had any right to be gaining from a 6 slotted single attack power(!), but I was even able to minimize the amount of recharge slotted into Thunder Kick so as to keep the Stun proc chance as high as possible.  Win-Win-Win!

 

Additionally, the Kinetic Combat Knockdown proc is set for 3 PPM, which even with +0% recharge would result in a 19.15% proc chance.

By contrast, Overwhelming Force has a flat 20% Knockdown chance, regardless of recharge enhancement.

Even better yet, by limiting the recharge slotted into Thunder Kick to the maximum extent possible, the Pounding Slugfest Stun proc chance is ~14-15% for every kick, which then markedly increases the mez potential of Thunder Kick (which natively has a 10% chance for a 7.152s mag 2 Stun).  This combination means that ~22% of the time you use Thunder Kick you're going to produce a Stun duration of either 7.152s or of 8s duration, with either being a mag 2 Stun (and the odds of getting both for a mag 4 Stun is a mere 1.5% chance).  The beauty however lies is how OFTEN Thunder Kick is getting used, since it recharges FAST (3s base) and so easily meets the Chuck Lots of Dice!! threshold of usefulness.  Heck, even using Thunder Kick merely TWICE yields a ~41.5% chance of successfully getting a Stun proc (either from Thunder Kick itself or from Pounding Slugfest) ... and at THREE attacks the odds improve to ~55.2% chance for at least one Stun proc (either from Thunder Kick itself or from Pounding Slugfest) ... all without needing to "slow down" or spend extra endurance on using Cobra Strike (which only has a 75% chance to Stun natively).

 

In other words, the suppressive mez potential of this 4+2 slotting in Thunder Kick is simply incredible ... but then when you add in the (flat) 20% chance for a Knockdown it starts getting even more gobsmacking, since between the 10% chance of Thunder Kick to Stun, the ~15% chance of Pounding Slugfest to Stun AND the 20% chance to Knockdown from Overwhelming Force you're looking at a whopping 38.8% chance of ONE of those three things happening every time you use Thunder Kick ... and if you hit a $Target with Thunder Kick twice (very easy to do) then the odds of getting (at least) ONE of those three procs happening increases to ~62.5%(!!!).

 

To put it mildly, Thunder Kick is finally living up to its promise as an IN YOUR FACE attack power with a kick to it.

 

But then it gets even better when you actually watch the animations owing to the way that Thunder Kick animates and how that interacts with the the Overwhelming Force Knockdown proc ... because it looks like you're kicking your $Target in the face SO HARD that it knocks them tea kettle over saucers in a way that LIFTS THEM OFF THEIR FEET!  The way it looks is simply almost too perfect fit for the way that Thunder Kick animates!  It's just beautiful to see.  🤣

 

 

 

So ... yeah.

 

Thunder Kick Does Not Suck.

 

Provided you slot it right (of course) ... and you use it "right" in concert with Storm Kick to maximize the damage buffing you get from Eagle's Claw.  Right now, I'm thinking that the 4+2 slotting for Thunder Kick is very nearly as optimal as can be had right now, and especially within the overall context of this build in particular.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Redlynne

[Caulderone]

I keep looking at Enflame in the updated 3.1 TK build and wondering if it is worth it and I couldn't figure out a better thing to go there.

 

Then, it occurred to me finally.  You could replace it with Conserve Power for a significant improvement, for 90 seconds anyway, in the With EC attack chain's sustain.

 

I think that could be a worthwhile swap.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Caulderone

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Caulderone said:

I keep looking at Enflame in the updated 3.1 TK build and wondering if it is worth it and I couldn't figure out a better thing to go there.

 

Then, it occurred to me finally.  You could replace it with Conserve Power for a significant improvement, for 90 seconds anyway, in the With EC attack chain's sustain.

 

I think that could be a worthwhile swap.

I'll readily grant that Enflame being included in the Thunder Kick build is THE most "expendible" option for replacement with a(nother) One Slot Wonder™ power.  Conserve power would make for a very decent alternative option if a one slot Enflame does not appeal to you.

 

There's even a curious synergy with Victory Rush if you have Conserve Power.

 

Victory Rush lasts for 120s and has a 300s recharge time (which cannot be enhanced to recharge faster).

Conserve Power, with a single 50+5 common Recharge Reduction IO, lasts for 90s and would have a ~252-255s recharge time as a One Slot Wonder™ power in the context of this build.

120+90=210

 

So if you use Victory Rush ... let the 120s duration run to completion ... and then use Conserve Power at some point within ~50s of Victory Rush expiring, then Conserve Power will recharge in time for use again after the next Victory Rush ... and you'll only have ~90s of downtime when neither Victory Rush nor Conserve Power are in effect.  On top of that, the Thunder Kick version has the longevity of endurance to attack continuously during that ~90s downtime (which could be split before and after Conserve Power even!) and not exhaust itself before the next Victory Rush cycle.

 

Yes, that does sound like a remarkably viable alternative.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Redlynne

[Redlynne]

21 hours ago, Caulderone said:

I keep looking at Enflame in the updated 3.1 TK build and wondering if it is worth it and I couldn't figure out a better thing to go there.

 

Then, it occurred to me finally.  You could replace it with Conserve Power for a significant improvement, for 90 seconds anyway, in the With EC attack chain's sustain.

 

I think that could be a worthwhile swap.

Credit for this idea added to the write up of the v3.1.0 explanation (now including v3.1.1 edit).

[Crater Kate]

Not to threadomancy too badly, but I really like where you've ended up in the 3.x builds. SR is my favorite secondary and has a lot of weird misinformation about it out there - I particularly like the focus on healing and regen as that is the set's *actual* weakness, and Sorcery is a very clever way to get to some important slots while sidestepping Fighting and the completely dead Boxing/Kick. 

 

In fact, I like where this is at so much that I cannibalized it for my SR/Staff. Well, I say cannibalized. I used the shell of the build... and most of the white meat... some of the dark meat, too... really, the appendages have claws instead of pincers and that's about all I changed... but it's MINE damnit!

 

 

(Look, I'm lazy, ok?)

 

I took this out for a spin on the beta server and ran some +4/x8s vs. Carnies - ie, a pretty irritating enemy group that'll always give you something of a run for your money.

 

It kind of... completely melted them?

 

I won't lie, it was a little hair raising at first, having to get used to living in the red all the time. But once you stomach that and realize Your Health Bar Doesn't Mean Anything^TM - it was just a faceroll! They'd hit me down to 20%, 10%, heck even 5% health - doesn't matter, keep hitting things, passively heal to full lol. Every. Damn. Time. And staff was doing really - if not great - at least respectable dmg to everything. AoE blender as Staff does, and Serpent's Reach was really gnarly ST (which is maybe not surprising).

 

But yeah. This way of building SR basically solves all the major problems I've had with the set. It's like, a *little* light on Def for Incarnate content out of the box, but given that this was built for MA with Storm Kick vs Staff with Guarded Spin, it performs really really smoothly in practice.

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, Crater Kate said:

That's ... pretty impressive, actually.

Also really nice to see that the Super Reflexes "core" can be ported over to other secondaries reasonably well with understandable adjustments due to the unique interactions of Storm Kick with Super Reflexes.

6 hours ago, Crater Kate said:

SR is my favorite secondary and has a lot of weird misinformation about it out there

This is true.  There is a LOT of Conventional Wisdom™ that isn't all that WISE about Super Reflexes.  A lot of it is just a combination of uninformed and misinformed leading to thinking that is far too simplistic to be taken at face value.

6 hours ago, Crater Kate said:

I particularly like the focus on healing and regen as that is the set's *actual* weakness, and Sorcery is a very clever way to get to some important slots while sidestepping Fighting and the completely dead Boxing/Kick.

I would like to think that this particular combination is the REAL insight that I was able to discover and share with the community, so as to expand Realm Of The Possible.

I just really dislike the Fighting pool, because the pool is basically "selfish" in that Tough and Weave only apply to yourself, not to your Team.  Using Sorcery (Rune of Protection specifically) to get around the "need" for the Fighting pool for Tough as a mule for Resistance set enhancements was one of those one of those WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THIS BEFORE?!?!?! moments when I stumbled across it.  I just sat there staring at the build planner ... stunned ... for a couple of minutes as I tried to mentally process ALL of the implications, and kept coming up with additional knock on effects that propagated and reverberated throughout the build because of the cascading influences to how everything added up to a cohesive whole.

 

And then once I found it, I knew with absolute certainty that keeping it to myself would be an error of the first order ... so I HAD TO post it, so as to get the word out and shift the boundaries of the possible and the (falsely) assumed.

7 hours ago, Crater Kate said:

I took this out for a spin on the beta server and ran some +4/x8s vs. Carnies - ie, a pretty irritating enemy group that'll always give you something of a run for your money.

 

It kind of... completely melted them?

😎

7 hours ago, Crater Kate said:

I won't lie, it was a little hair raising at first, having to get used to living in the red all the time. But once you stomach that and realize Your Health Bar Doesn't Mean Anything^TM - it was just a faceroll! They'd hit me down to 20%, 10%, heck even 5% health - doesn't matter, keep hitting things, passively heal to full lol. Every. Damn. Time.

💝 💝 💝

 

I'd argue that a large part of why that happens is because of how all the set bonuses and Tanker ATO procs and scaling resistances start stacking up as your HP falls, since they will start combining to push you towards the Resistance hardcap while also staying at the Defensive softcap.  That means that as your resistances scale upwards, the amount of incoming damage leaking through your defenses will fall, potentially down to below your regeneration rate ... and when your regeneration exceeds the damage you're taking over time, you can't be defeated by anything other than a big single hit spike in damage (which is unlikely to happen because of your defenses, but could still happen if you're unlucky, and if you Roll The Dice enough, you'll eventually be unlucky enough for that to happen).  So it's "not absolute invulnerability" under every condition (but then again, what is?), but it is a rather successful method of reaching for a Protection In Depth scheme for survival that fills in the gaps of Super Reflexes so as to make the powerset a strong contender for remarkable survival in ways that can surprise the Player (as you found).

7 hours ago, Crater Kate said:

But yeah. This way of building SR basically solves all the major problems I've had with the set.

You're welcome.  😎

 

Sometimes you just have to experience things for yourself before it all comes together for you and you Get It ... and when that happens, it's a wonderful thing.

You're welcome.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just tanked Recluse on an MLTF with my SR/Claws BZB. Hadn't tried before now. Was not an issue. 🙂

[killigraphy]

I fuck with this build so much....the only problem?

 

MA is probably the worst looking set since Psionic melee. Storm Kick's 10% to everything is too beastly to ignore however. They need to change MA's storm kick, with MC's storm kick animation. Besides that, this build S tier.

[CaptainLupis]

I just got my SR/MA tank to 22 after running it through Praetoria, and few Talos missions, and was thinking about what direction to take her, as I already had softcapped def (when using storm kick) even just using common IOs. Then I saw you link this in Bill Z's scaling damage res thread. After my head stopped swimming I thought, damn, I've already taken boxing, tough and cobra strike, looks like I managed to do everything wrong! Ah well, I still have my free respecs at least, so I might give your way a try.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, CaptainLupis said:

I just got my SR/MA tank to 22 after running it through Praetoria, and few Talos missions, and was thinking about what direction to take her, as I already had softcapped def (when using storm kick) even just using common IOs. Then I saw you link this in Bill Z's scaling damage res thread. After my head stopped swimming I thought, damn, I've already taken boxing, tough and cobra strike, looks like I managed to do everything wrong! Ah well, I still have my free respecs at least, so I might give your way a try.

Counterpoint: If you were having fun, you weren't doin it wrong.