About incarnate level shifts

[Parabola]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I made a post a while back about removing the 2nd and 3rd level shift entirely. I've since change my view. Just because I don't need them to fight +4s means nothing, especially now that I've played a lot of the squishier combos out there. Removing the level shifts is a nerf. It's a massive reduction in ability for a whole lotta characters.

So, will I /jranger the whole idea? No. Am I forced to call it a nerf? Yes. Would I honestly care one way or the other? Not really. Power creep be real yo. But I would also very much understand why a great many players with a great many characters would be more than ticked off were it to happen.

But surely it would only matter if people found themselves in a position where they were no longer able to turn the difficulty down far enough to be able to play? Otherwise they are just peeved that their number is one smaller than it was. So if there are people out there that currently can only just manage playing regular content at -1x1 while they are level shifted and so would be unable to cope with the level shift removed then they would genuinely affected. I would love to see that build though :).

[Bill Z Bubba]

24 minutes ago, parabola said:

But surely it would only matter if people found themselves in a position where they were no longer able to turn the difficulty down far enough to be able to play? Otherwise they are just peeved that their number is one smaller than it was. So if there are people out there that currently can only just manage playing regular content at -1x1 while they are level shifted and so would be unable to cope with the level shift removed then they would genuinely affected. I would love to see that build though :).

 

Never underestimate the importance of being able to turn the knob to 11.

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, parabola said:

I still cannot see what the point of it is. It just seems bad design. The difficulty curve only goes up to 54 and the alpha slot both makes 54 easier because you are more powerful and then completely arbitrarily transforms 54 from +4 to +3. There doesn't seem a need for it and removing it seems to be of benefit to everyone. If you currently run at say +2 with the incarnate shift, what is the difference with running at +1 without it? Presumably you have to remember to change when exemping down anyway so it would actually save you time.

Felt like this bit needed to be responded to.

 

The Incarnate System we see now, and related content, is incomplete. There was meant to be a second tier of powers (and XP, etc.) of which the only one we have is Hybrid (which, to me, works as an "Alpha 2.0.") We are missing Genesis, Mind, Vitae and Omega - even as far as descriptions. We also do not (I'm going to add in an editorial "fortunately" here) have the whole Battalion storyline, mobs, etc. So calling it bad design... I don't know. Calling it incomplete and potentially suffering from that? Yes.

 

As far as the "remove level shifts?" Instead of deciding what everyone likes or doesn't or what benefits or doesn't benefit everyone, how about just a command. /removelevelshift. Or an option on the menu. That way you can play however you want without affecting everyone else. *shrug* Throw some badges in on top of it. Heck, add one for completing tinpex without alpha slotted.

[Uun]

I recently joined a team running DA missions on a 50+3. Mission was to +3 x8 (mission holder was not level shifted), so mobs were even con to me. It was a joke. No challenge whatsoever and increasing it to +4 would not have helped. If the DA missions are going to grant a +3 shift, the mobs either need to go higher than 54, or the minions need to go away so you can fight only lieutenants and bosses. 

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

I recently joined a team running DA missions on a 50+3. Mission was to +3 x8 (mission holder was not level shifted), so mobs were even con to me. It was a joke. No challenge whatsoever and increasing it to +4 would not have helped. If the DA missions are going to grant a +3 shift, the mobs either need to go higher than 54, or the minions need to go away so you can fight only lieutenants and bosses. 

So the game should remove your level shifts is you aren't the leader?

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, I cannot support the OP.

 

Hard no vote.

[Uun]

51 minutes ago, Troo said:

So the game should remove your level shifts is you aren't the leader?

The lore and destiny level shifts aren’t needed in DA. Reduce to +1.

[Apparition]

39 minutes ago, Uun said:

The lore and destiny level shifts aren’t needed in DA. Reduce to +1.

Level 50 isn’t needed in the Miss Liberty TF.  Reduce to level 49.

[Snowdaze]

Explain to me what it means to be an incarnate then if you aren't effectively more powerful then the ordinary folk. OP suggestion could be done, but it defeats the game lore it is designed for.

 

If the OP doesn't want to be level shifted then they can craft and equip a T2 power. If at that point you want to complain that you aren't getting full benefit from said incarnate power then you are missing the point of the incarnate power all together. You are either more powerful, or you are not.

 

Gunna go with: leave incarnate level shifts alone. Using the extra power after 50 is a choice.

[SurfD]

Pretty much.  The heavy level shift bonuses are already restricted to what is basically intended as incarnate level content anyway, so I am not really seeing an issue here.  Being +1 everywhere else in 50 content isn't exactly gamebreaking (especially compared with the fact that your T4 incarnate powers are still fully functional basically EVERYWHERE until you exemp far enough down to lose them).  Running as +1 in radio missions in Peregrine Island or the like is nothing compared to being able to obliterate crap with Ion judgements and the like.

[Uun]

8 hours ago, Apparition said:

Level 50 isn’t needed in the Miss Liberty TF.  Reduce to level 49.

I know you're giving a tongue in cheek response, but I'd like to see something done to MLTF. Before the snap, it used to be hard. Now it seems like any random team can do it under 30 minutes. Maybe part of the problem is speed runs at +0 (do the AVs still always spawn at 54 or do they adjust based on notoriety?), but even at +4 it seems a lot easier than it used to be. 

[Uun]

6 hours ago, SurfD said:

Pretty much.  The heavy level shift bonuses are already restricted to what is basically intended as incarnate level content anyway, so I am not really seeing an issue here.  Being +1 everywhere else in 50 content isn't exactly gamebreaking (especially compared with the fact that your T4 incarnate powers are still fully functional basically EVERYWHERE until you exemp far enough down to lose them).  Running as +1 in radio missions in Peregrine Island or the like is nothing compared to being able to obliterate crap with Ion judgements and the like.

I largely agree, except for the DA content. It was intended as incarnate content, but it fails. If you're +3, max level DA content will only be +1 to you. You should be able to fight mobs +2 or +3 to you, the same way you can anywhere else in the game. Telling me to remove my T3 or T4 slots is not a solution.

[Snowdaze]

Can someone explain to me what the need to only run content that is purple con is? I understand the want for a challenge, but that shouldn't be at the expense of normal difficulty settings or current game design. There is no need to "force" a harder time on people. I enjoy a challenge as much as the next person, I however do not enjoy multiple team wipes when I'm on a lvl 25 team that the leader insists on running at +4! That's just a terrible idea and slows progress for those that want to advance. 

If anything research should be done to potentially add +5 through +7, and for the love of all things, limit the terror of it's mass wiping potential to 50+'s! And leave the current incarnate system alone!

Edited May 13, 2020 by Snowdaze

[Apparition]

Honestly, I am now convinced that veteran levels were a mistake.  It worked for Resurgence due to the very small player base, but they do much more harm than good on a server the size of Homecoming.  Veteran levels allow people to obtain Incarnate abilities too quickly and too easily, leading to a bunch of whining on the forums and Discord that “the game is too easy.”

 

IMO, it would have been better for the health of the game for veteran levels to be removed, but it is too late for that.

[Snowdaze]

10 hours ago, Apparition said:

Honestly, I am now convinced that veteran levels were a mistake.  It worked for Resurgence due to the very small player base, but they do much more harm than good on a server the size of Homecoming.  Veteran levels allow people to obtain Incarnate abilities too quickly and too easily, leading to a bunch of whining on the forums and Discord that “the game is too easy.”

 

IMO, it would have been better for the health of the game for veteran levels to be removed, but it is too late for that.

yes and no, While I agree at current they are too easy, they also are not the easiest way to incarnate out. Speed running the first DA arc allows you to get salvage much quicker then you can with the current vet level system.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Snowdaze
changed "slavage" to salvage, lol slavage!

[Bill Z Bubba]

16 minutes ago, Apparition said:

IMO, it would have been better for the health of the game for veteran levels to be removed, but it is too late for that.

 

It's never too late for change. Just remains in question whether the change is good/bad/needed/whatever.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

Speed running the first DA arc allows you to get slavage much quicker then you can with the current vet level system.

 

Odd. I thought the 1st DA arc WAS the current vet lvl system. 🙂

[tidge]

16 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Honestly, I am now convinced that veteran levels were a mistake.  It worked for Resurgence due to the very small player base, but they do much more harm than good on a server the size of Homecoming.  Veteran levels allow people to obtain Incarnate abilities too quickly and too easily, leading to a bunch of whining on the forums and Discord that “the game is too easy.”

 

2 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

yes and no, While I agree at current they are too easy, they also are not the easiest way to incarnate out. Speed running the first DA arc allows you to get slavage much quicker then you can with the current vet level system.

 

I appreciate the Homecoming verteran levels. At a very gut level: on Live, I missed the "Level Up!" effects. More specific to the Live Incarnate system: I disliked having to slog through (only) Incarnate Trials just to get specific experience just to be better at slogging through Incarnate Trials.

 

It is common for my 'new' level 50 toons to play out a significant amount of pre-Incarnate content before I even start slotting Incarnate slots. The unlocking of Incarnate slots as I'm playing non-Incarnate material is a welcome change, as I get to decide my approach to Incarnate content... when/if I get to it.

[Parabola]

19 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

 

I appreciate the Homecoming verteran levels. At a very gut level: on Live, I missed the "Level Up!" effects. More specific to the Live Incarnate system: I disliked having to slog through (only) Incarnate Trials just to get specific experience just to be better at slogging through Incarnate Trials.

 

It is common for my 'new' level 50 toons to play out a significant amount of pre-Incarnate content before I even start slotting Incarnate slots. The unlocking of Incarnate slots as I'm playing non-Incarnate material is a welcome change, as I get to decide my approach to Incarnate content... when/if I get to it.

Yeah I don't have a problem with the vet levels either. Having to jump through specific hoops isn't generally fun and this way you are encouraged to participate in a wide range of content.

 

I don't want it to be harder to become incarnated, I just have certain reservations about what being incarnate looks and plays like.

 

Still don't understand the fuss about losing the level shift in regular play vs having to add a +5 difficulty to achieve much the same thing but I'm clearly swimming against the tide on that one!

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, Snowdaze said:

yes and no, While I agree at current they are too easy, they also are not the easiest way to incarnate out. Speed running the first DA arc allows you to get slavage much quicker then you can with the current vet level system.

 

 

Yes, but so does BAF farming and Lord knows that there is a ton of that.  There is always at least one BAF farm running on Excelsior, if not two.  But that is for salvage, not Incarnate threads.  Even then, you still have to do something specifically for the Incarnate salvage, unlike veteran levels.

[Snowdaze]

8 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

Yes, but so does BAF farming and Lord knows that there is a ton of that.  There is always at least one BAF farm running on Excelsior, if not two.  But that is for salvage, not Incarnate threads.  Even then, you still have to do something specifically for the Incarnate salvage, unlike veteran levels.

I really havent noticed BAF farms on Everlasting, Even so I think a BAF takes longer then the first DA arc. Ultimately I dont really see a problem. People are running content and receive something for it, this is good. And still there are people with high vet level who aren't incarnates because they either dont want to be, dont know how to be, or havent gotten around to be. Being an Incarnate is very much a choice, and as long as it's a choice, I fail to see a problem.

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

 

Yes, but so does BAF farming and Lord knows that there is a ton of that.  There is always at least one BAF farm running on Excelsior, if not two.  But that is for salvage, not Incarnate threads.  Even then, you still have to do something specifically for the Incarnate salvage, unlike veteran levels.

You have to do something for veteran levels. Earn xp. Incarnating out via BAF after BAF is bloody easy.

Edited May 14, 2020 by golstat2003

[SurfD]

9 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

 

Yes, but so does BAF farming and Lord knows that there is a ton of that.  There is always at least one BAF farm running on Excelsior, if not two.  But that is for salvage, not Incarnate threads.  Even then, you still have to do something specifically for the Incarnate salvage, unlike veteran levels.

The thing is though, speed running the Heather Townshend arc is still going to be less involvement for more reward than running a BAF.   It takes me about 15 minutes to run my MM through the arc (which is FAR from as efficient as i can be if I try really hard), which Guarantees 1 common salvage, and a shot at the full range of Common/uncommon/rare/vrare salvage tables.    I can do that twice, easily, in the time it usually takes for a BAF to form and complete a run. And I can do that at any time I want.  

 

It's also a lot faster than relying on Vet Levels to gear up.   Especially once the Emp Merits start dropping off.    Yes, vet levels are awesome in the early stages for helping you fill out blank spaces in your build, but threads are basically useless past t2.  Nobody except people with shitloads of money to burn is going to spend 25mil INF to create a Rare component using threads when they can just run a few Heather Townshend arcs and hope to get lucky.

 

It's entirely possible that the early payout for Vetran Levels in regards to Threads / Emp merits is a bit on the heavy side, but it's kind of hard to say.

Edited May 14, 2020 by SurfD

[Snowdaze]

1 minute ago, SurfD said:

which Guarantees 1 common salvage, and a shot at the full range of Common/uncommon/rare/vrare salvage tables.

quick correction.... the random non-table drop can be any rarity...

[SurfD]

1 minute ago, Snowdaze said:

quick correction.... the random non-table drop can be any rarity...

Wait, really?  I don't thin I have ever seen it drop anything but a Common.  Maybe just bad luck on my part then.  Nice to know, which bumps the potential payout up even more.