Weekly Discussion 51: Kallisti Wharf!

[DougGraves]

To my knowledge I have never been to Kallisti Wharf.  I do not know what level range it is, what it looks like, or anything about it.

[chase]

I think this needs to be level 40-50 content as originally intended, not incarnate.

I agree with the people that things like the Rikti, Nemesis, etc are a bit overdone.

 

Currently in the 40-50 range, we have

• The generic hero-battling-larger-threats zone of Peregrine
• Extradimensional zones in portal
• Climbing the machinery of the massive villain organization of Arachnos
• Massive alien (alternate-reality, really) warfare with Rikti.

We lack a good morally-grey more "street level" narrative.   Not just vigilante/rogue types of content, though this is also an area where for the whole cycle of changing roles could flourish.

What I'd do:

 

Primal hero/villain forces should also take a back seat.   Arachnos has a toehold here, sure, but we have Grandville for the "rising up through Arachnos" narrative.   Let less established crime syndicates shine.   Forces like longbow and or wyvern have a similarly muted presence- their focus is elsewhere and they want the new locals to prove they can police themselves.    It's not uncommon for immigrant groups to look to "police" and "protect" themselves, so it's easy to see how factions that may have existed in Praetoria may take similar-but-different roles here, or even fragment differently.   It's also not uncommon for "host nation" criminal groups to want to get a piece of the action, and all that jockying of power can lead to strange bedfellows and shifting alliances.

Chaos, with no dominant faction would be my way:

• It's easy to see tales of corporate warfare as organizations like Syndicate fragments teaming with/jockeying against Crey, Family, and Tsoo.
• Resistance (crusader) and destroyers could mix with up-leveled Warriors, Family, and Tsoo.
• Resistance (Warden) and Loyalist (Responsibility) factions may find common goals working together if they can overcome some of the bad blood and conflicting priorities.  Other organizations may be interested in assuring they don't.
• Freed seers will be invaluable assets to organizations that can snatch them up, or they may band together in a paranoid alliance that "takes care of their own" and finds threats in the minds of everyone everywhere.
• That's just a short list, but it should already be apparent where each of these conflicts could lead to arcs where heroes, villains, rogues, or vigilantes may reasonably have an interest.

This broad, chaotic set of stories helps us also navigate the development of it:  we crowdsource:  Define the various top-factions of interest and the general tone you're seeking.   Then hold "contests," with people coming up with their own stories using AE (and maybe supplemental docs for things that can't be done in AE yet) following your framework.  Make sure contestants know that their work may be modified to add consistency or to work with the zone.

 

 

[Mister Mass]

12 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

To my knowledge I have never been to Kallisti Wharf.  I do not know what level range it is, what it looks like, or anything about it.

It is available at any character level on the Paragon City tram as the bottom choice.  If you didn’t know it was there, you would never scroll down to see it.  (I know I was playing for a month before I found it.)

 

The Homecoming team uses it as the site for costume contests.  It is the starting point for the Market a crash TF.  Higher level content will occasionally have a mission door there.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Mister Mass

[Taboo]

20 minutes ago, chase said:

level 40-50 content as originally intended, not incarnate.

this.

 

Also, could it be a place that appears calm on the surface with serious power struggles just below between same side factions. Where a hero might be considered the enemy and the villain a friend.

[Skyhawke]

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2020 at 4:09 PM, RadicalRay said:

Two Words: Batallion Invasion!

I would like to see an ending to the Coming Storm thing.  Even if it's just some missions that pop into regular arcs dealing with things others have listed, culminating in a TF that has you finally stopping the Coming Storm and resolving the Mender Silos/Lord Nemesis thing once and for all.

[mechahamham]

16 hours ago, chase said:

This broad, chaotic set of stories helps us also navigate the development of it:  we crowdsource:  Define the various top-factions of interest and the general tone you're seeking.   Then hold "contests," with people coming up with their own stories using AE (and maybe supplemental docs for things that can't be done in AE yet) following your framework.  Make sure contestants know that their work may be modified to add consistency or to work with the zone.

 

This. A thousand times this. CoH is in the hands of the players now. Solicit and promote AE arcs for this kind of content.

 

Freed Seer: "Some of my sisters have banded together for protection, but they don't know how to tell the difference between people who are merely hostile to them and people who are actively attacking them. We need to restrain them before they go to far. Please save this group of protesters, hateful though they may be, from my sisters."

 

Things like that. Give some general direction on the kinds of story arcs needed for the zone and then cherry pick. The best part? The runners up stay in AE and broaden the amount of content available for players!

[Tiger Shadow]

I'd like to be able to run my level 4-50 tip missions in Khallisti Wharf. My rogues/villains would really appreciate a non-Grandville option.

[Doc_Scorpion]

6 hours ago, mechahamham said:

Solicit and promote AE arcs for this kind of content.

There are...  any number of legal (copyright) issues in doing so.  That's why so few (as a hedge, I am not aware of any) legally run games do that.  It's the same reason HC is likely to stay far, far away from that.

[TalonBlue]

If there is going to story content in KW then for the sake of continuity, I think the Arachnos were being set up to be the primary threat in KW if you go by the story arcs that take place after the Magisterium and Emperor Cole falls.

[ArchVileTerror]

While that's true in a for-profit context, Doc (and even then, companies have found ways around such legalities for ages now), Homecoming provides us with the opportunity to do a -lot- of things differently due to its inherent not-for-profit structure.

However, as we saw with holymittens, there's certainly no shortage of talented writers able to provide meaningful content for this game.  While I know I'd be thrilled to be a part of the writing department, what little we've seen the Team tackle so far, I'm still fairly confident we don't need to dip in to AE contests yet.

[chase]

8 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

There are...  any number of legal (copyright) issues in doing so.  That's why so few (as a hedge, I am not aware of any) legally run games do that.  It's the same reason HC is likely to stay far, far away from that.

Most of the risk is whether the submitters of user generated content were the actual creators of it- in this case, plagiarism or heavy lifting from other sources.   Some of the community-vetting can detect things that go beyond homages.  In many ways, Kallisti Wharf with community-driven content wouldn't present much more risk than AE already does.   It's still content in the game directly delivered by the game to other people in the platform.   Making it "official" makes very little difference- particularly when you consider that community-driven aspect of this could be as well-hilighted as AE content is.

[Zombie Hustler]

On 5/20/2020 at 8:01 AM, laudwic said:

One of the many things I like is that CoH has litter in zones, places that look just dirty.  There shouldn't be any here, there shouldn't be paper flying in the wind.  Its clean in this zone.  When adding people walking around, add people cleaning up.  Everyone walking around should be clean.  Not shaggy people pushing shopping carts.  There are no homeless on the streets of Kallisti Wharf.  

In the main parts of the streets, there shouldn't be enemies.  This is the safe community in Paragon.  They pay to keep it safe to keep the other dangers out.  In the alley's there will be mobs but I think it would be better that they are not directly in sight.

This part of your post got me to thinking of something that could combine some of the different ideas here, and maybe do something really dynamic with KW.

 

What if this utilized some of the dynamics of Recluse's Victory and Warburg in a way that reflected changing aesthetic among the voting population of the zone? Something along the lines of: Heroes run Hero missions and the zone gets nicer; villains run Villain missions and it becomes seedier. Maybe Villain missions lead to a representative tied to Arachnos getting "elected" in the district and making the place more villain-friendly (or vice versa).

 

This could be even less black and white than Hero/Villain, but maybe somehow tied to side switching mechanics and mission runs. Don't know how/if this could work, but imagine if it somehow weighs the number of morality missions undertaken in the zone to determine the look and feel? Or even just bases that on the number of heroes vs. villains vs. rogues vs. vigilantes in the zone at a given time.

 

Maybe some missions or story arcs would only be available when the zone is phased one way or another? ("It's going to get much worse around here before it gets better" one hero mutters as he waits for the "redemption" story arc to activate)

 

TLDR: Allow the players' approach to content in the zone to impact the zone's appearance like in some of the PvP zones, but without the PvP.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Zombie Hustler

[Doc_Scorpion]

6 hours ago, ArchVileTerror said:

While that's true in a for-profit context, Doc (and even then, companies have found ways around such legalities for ages now), Homecoming provides us with the opportunity to do a -lot- of things differently due to its inherent not-for-profit structure.

You don't have to make a profit to get into legal hot water over copyright.  It's a consideration when evaluating Fair Use, but it is emphatically not a free pass or a get-out-jail-free card.

Also, not-for-profit doesn't mean you can't or don't make a profit (though our Dev team chooses not to), it means there's no owners (or partners, or shareholders, etc...) that make a personal profit.  A non-profit or not-for-profit can make a profit, they just can't distribute it - it must be used for operations and/or the stated purpose of the organization.  (The non profit I'm part of is hurting bad right now because our operating funds for the year come from the profits from a now cancelled (due to the virus) annual event.)
 

5 hours ago, chase said:

Most of the risk is whether the submitters of user generated content were the actual creators of it- in this case, plagiarism or heavy lifting from other sources.   Some of the community-vetting can detect things that go beyond homages.  In many ways, Kallisti Wharf with community-driven content wouldn't present much more risk than AE already does. 

IANAL - but the lawyers I've dealt with (FWIW as part of a non-profit) say different.  When the organization places it's imprimatur onto a piece of content by officially publishing it, they assume responsibility for the content.  If it violates copyright or trademark, they're potentially liable.

Anyhow, this is getting off topic and I've said my piece.

[Delta]

One thing that I feel would be cool is if there are NPC heroes and villains roaming around the area kinda like the villains seen in Brickstown. You could have the heroes on the villain side working to clean the area of villainy while the villains on the hero side of the zone work to bring more crime/influence to their side. These heroes/villains would not belong to any group/organization, instead setting their own paths. With these characters, I would set them up similar to the prisoners during the prison break zone event in Brickstown in terms of levels. You could also give them minions/sidekicks like regular mobs, but tailor to that specific villain/hero.