Stalkers Placate AoE

[Spectre7878]

So I have played other games that had stalkers and one thing I would love to see in COH is Placate be an aoe. So basically it would drop all any threat on you. It works in other games, why not COH. Its just an idea. Hope I don't ruffle any feathers hehe. 

[MTeague]

None of my stalkers even take Placate anymore.  With the Chance to Hide ATO, Placate is entirely unnecessary.

Still. Maybe if it were AOE, more people would take it, and it might be of more use to those players who do not sugar-daddy their alts with ATO's.

[Vanden]

AoE placate is already available from the Concealment pool and as a purchaseable temp power.

[Spectre7878]

I understand what you both are saying, but that's why I said in the original post it should be AoE. I would not take the 3 powers in concealment pool for something my AT already does. I tried the temp power from the P2W vendor and that is how placate for a stalker should work. A stalker should be weaving in and out of battle. Seems silly to placate one foe, yet the other targets can hit you. The point of using a placate is so that you go back in to hide and can attack. Again, its just my opinion. Just think it would make the class better. 😊

[Snowdaze]

The AS, Placate, hide, AS tactic is the stalkers of yesteryear. The Issue 22 stalker buff made them a much more able fighter. Placate still reapplies hide, you then get full defense bonus. At that point you should be continuing to fight, not waiting for AS to recharge. I don't see a problem with placate on stalkers. If you make it AoE you are basically giving them a free moment of invincibility! An AoE placate is a very very powerful thing, that is why there is a cost of taking extra powers to get it or paying for it in Inf.

 

I feel this is an unnecessary change, what you are asking for already exists, you just have to decide if you want to pay the cost for it, it should not be free.

[Galaxy Brain]

8 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

The AS, Placate, hide, AS tactic is the stalkers of yesteryear. The Issue 22 stalker buff made them a much more able fighter. Placate still reapplies hide, you then get full defense bonus. At that point you should be continuing to fight, not waiting for AS to recharge. I don't see a problem with placate on stalkers. If you make it AoE you are basically giving them a free moment of invincibility! An AoE placate is a very very powerful thing, that is why there is a cost of taking extra powers to get it or paying for it in Inf.

 

I feel this is an unnecessary change, what you are asking for already exists, you just have to decide if you want to pay the cost for it, it should not be free.

So, the AT who thematically should be the best at placating enemies needs to use a pool power?

[Auroxis]

In the past I've suggested making Placate use the Focus mechanic, where it consumes 3 stacks and deals PBAoE damage(with a pseudopet) at full stacks. That way you can choose between burst DPS or burst AoE, which makes primaries with high DPS but almost no AoE (common Stalker issue) more relevant.

[Replacement]

"Hey, we know the iconic power in literally every one of your primaries is already not worth the cost of a single power selection, but hey you should spend 3 powers, one of which is guaranteed to be worthless for you, for a slightly less terrible effect every 4 minutes... With an accuracy check."

That doesn't sound like a tone-deaf response to you guys?

Does Misdirection even reset your Hidden flag?

 

27 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

In the past I've suggested making Placate use the Focus mechanic, where it consumes 3 stacks and deals PBAoE damage(with a pseudopet) at full stacks. That way you can choose between burst DPS or burst AoE, which makes primaries with high DPS but almost no AoE (common Stalker issue) more relevant.

I see you're trying to tackle a separate issue at the same time (stalker inconsistent aoe), but this makes me think of a different approach I'd like to see:

Take a page from Electric Affinity. Placate consumes assassin's focus and adds Chains (bounces to additional targets) based on number of stacks.

 

Ideally with more prominent FX so I can clearly track the chained targets.

[Nanolathe]

10 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Does Misdirection even reset your Hidden flag?

Neither one of the two Pool Power Placate-like effects do. They lack the +Self Stealth/Hide effect tag. Misdirection does give a -Resistance (11.25% ) on hit, while Pacify is mostly a worse Placate in every conceivable way.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Nanolathe

[Outrider_01]

Forget placate.

 

Turn off hide

 

No defense or resist 

 

Go blapper style in the nude.

 

Stalkers are the retarded cousins of blasters, but they got the spirit of a blaster.  Scrapper or brute, just a tanker with a lot of caffeine and sugar.  A lot of caffeine and sugar.

[tidge]

6 minutes ago, Nanolathe said:

Neither one of the two Pool Power Placate-like effects do. They lack the +Self Stealth/Hide effect tag. Misdirection does give a -Resistance (11.25% ) on hit, while Pacify is mostly a worse Placate in every conceivable way.

My experience with the Presence Pool's Pacify:

• I never witnessed it working as an AoE (It is rare I used the power however, see below)
• It does not reset  'hidden' status (vastly inferior to Placate for VEATs, Stalkers, et al.)

I played around with Pacify (on the path to Unrelenting), and the main value my toons got from it was when they needed a breather from a particularly long AV/EB fight. This is a highly situational circumstance that (in my experience) only occurs when playing solo, and even then few top-tier lvl 50 builds will need 'breathers' even during low-level content.

 

As much as I will talk up the Presence pool... and prefer Provoke to all singe-target AT Taunts (except for Lord Recluse)... I feel that Pacify is the weakest link, despite it being a clever power option (IMO).

[Psyonico]

11 hours ago, Vanden said:

AoE placate is already available from the Concealment pool and as a purchaseable temp power.

And in Ninjitsu

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

19 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

And in Ninjitsu

Was about to say this myself if no one else did. There was another thread recently basically pushing for all power sets in an AT to be carbon copy with different energy flavor so sets had Balance. Well Im a big stalker player, and have always championed Ninjitsu 2ndary as the best stalker 2ndary due to its 2nd and nice pbaoe placate. Nowadays that 2nd placate, or placate in general as others have pointed out is more for the old timers like me, most now really push the fast ATo fueled scrappy stalker approach, and its not hard to slip into, that ATO really works.

 

However on my very flavor made very mortal humancentric batman homage the Black Flying Fox, that pbaoe placate is a vital tool in keeping enemies off balance. So OP if having this specific tool is really a need for your play style, play the set that fits your playstyle rather then trying to water down a sets most unique tool.

[Snowdaze]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, the AT who thematically should be the best at placating enemies needs to use a pool power?

Hmmm, well arguably they already ARE the best at placating enemies, they already get a placate in their primary. If you want extra placate functionality then having to go deep into a pool? Sure, you have the option, sacrifices can be made. I honestly hardly ever use placate, and my stalker is a Dual Blades so I even get more functionality from placate then most as it's part of the empower combo, still doesn't mean I normally use it. It's there I can, but it's rarely needed, and frankly it's more work then it's worth to AS, placate, Hide, AS; it takes FOREVER! Placate is very much a utility tool not an armor.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Snowdaze

[Psyonico]

22 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Was about to say this myself if no one else did. There was another thread recently basically pushing for all power sets in an AT to be carbon copy with different energy flavor so sets had Balance. Well Im a big stalker player, and have always championed Ninjitsu 2ndary as the best stalker 2ndary due to its 2nd and nice pbaoe placate. Nowadays that 2nd placate, or placate in general as others have pointed out is more for the old timers like me, most now really push the fast ATo fueled scrappy stalker approach, and its not hard to slip into, that ATO really works.

 

However on my very flavor made very mortal humancentric batman homage the Black Flying Fox, that pbaoe placate is a vital tool in keeping enemies off balance. So OP if having this specific tool is really a need for your play style, play the set that fits your playstyle rather then trying to water down a sets most unique tool.

Even on my BS/Nin which has at least 49% defense to all positions I find myself using smoke bomb in larger teams and placate in smaller teams/solo

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Was about to say this myself if no one else did. There was another thread recently basically pushing for all power sets in an AT to be carbon copy with different energy flavor so sets had Balance. Well Im a big stalker player, and have always championed Ninjitsu 2ndary as the best stalker 2ndary due to its 2nd and nice pbaoe placate. Nowadays that 2nd placate, or placate in general as others have pointed out is more for the old timers like me, most now really push the fast ATo fueled scrappy stalker approach, and its not hard to slip into, that ATO really works.

 

However on my very flavor made very mortal humancentric batman homage the Black Flying Fox, that pbaoe placate is a vital tool in keeping enemies off balance. So OP if having this specific tool is really a need for your play style, play the set that fits your playstyle rather then trying to water down a sets most unique tool.

Wait, so your argument is "instead of fixing the terrible power that is completely replaced with an ATO, you should play a single build"?

 

Hard pass.

[Replacement]

56 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

Hmmm, well arguably they already ARE the best at placating enemies, they already get a placate in their primary. If you want extra placate functionality then having to go deep into a pool? Sure, you have the option, sacrifices can be made. I honestly hardly ever use placate, and my stalker is a Dual Blades so I even get more functionality from placate then most as it's part of the empower combo, still doesn't mean I normally use it. It's there I can, but it's rarely needed, and frankly it's more work then it's worth to AS, placate, Hide, AS; it takes FOREVER! Placate is very much a utility tool not an armor.

You are saying leave it as it is but your arguments are supporting evidence for an improvement.

• I don't use it.
• It's more work than it's worth (AS>Hide>AS)
• It takes forever.

Just because a power is Utility, doesn't mean it should be bad at utility.

[Snowdaze]

14 minutes ago, Replacement said:

You are saying leave it as it is but your arguments are supporting evidence for an improvement.

• I don't use it.
• It's more work than it's worth (AS>Hide>AS)
• It takes forever.

Just because a power is Utility, doesn't mean it should be bad at utility.

It's not bad at utility, it does exactly what it was designed for. If you really want it to be AoE, then to maintain balance you are going to have to increase recharge and reduce duration. I'd much rather have the current longer single target effect that I can use more often.

 

Too frequently people just want something to do more, and they need to consider the full reach of what they want, because more often then not what they want is much more powerful then they think. The suggested change to Placate "level 12 power" (simply making it aoe) would for all intents and purposes would make it arguably MORE powerful then the current Moment of Glory "level 38 power" (I still want old MoG back but we arent talking about that here).

Edited May 18, 2020 by Snowdaze

[MTeague]

9 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

IThe suggested change to Placate "level 12 power" (simply making it aoe) would for all intents and purposes would make it arguably MORE powerful then the current Moment of Glory "level 38 power" (I still want old MoG back but we arent talking about that here).

I've having REAL trouble seeing how you can view that statement as true.  

 

MoG lets you soak all kinds of incoming damage for it's admittedly short duration. Attacks already chained will basically bounce of you.  You can keep attacking, and KEEP MoG's protection for the duration of the power.  A PBAE placate is basically a glorified "You're Asleep but only to me".  If you damage them, they can attack you immediately after, and will, if you don't one-shot them.

 

A PBAE placeate would most likely either be used as a Phase Shift "get me the hell out of here!" when you bit off more than you can chew, but too bad for you if there's alreayd incoming firepower, it's GOING to hit you anyway, or, you could use a PBAE placate to pacify a squads of minions around a boss while you knife that boss down. 

 

I'm seeing MoG as leaps-and-bounds-more-valuable than iether of those two options.

[Psyonico]

I think the only thing that needs to happen with Placate is the time between activation and going hidden needs to be shortened, now it's at least 1 second, maybe closer to 1.5-2 seconds.

[Snowdaze]

2 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I've having REAL trouble seeing how you can view that statement as true.  

 

MoG lets you soak all kinds of incoming damage for it's admittedly short duration. Attacks already chained will basically bounce of you.  You can keep attacking, and KEEP MoG's protection for the duration of the power.  A PBAE placate is basically a glorified "You're Asleep but only to me".  If you damage them, they can attack you immediately after, and will, if you don't one-shot them.

 

A PBAE placeate would most likely either be used as a Phase Shift "get me the hell out of here!" when you bit off more than you can chew, but too bad for you if there's alreayd incoming firepower, it's GOING to hit you anyway, or, you could use a PBAE placate to pacify a squads of minions around a boss while you knife that boss down. 

 

I'm seeing MoG as leaps-and-bounds-more-valuable than iether of those two options.

No you do have valid points and to you MoG is more powerful thats fine, I did say it's ARGUABLY more powerful. Consider level, flat out a power that would stop a group cold (to you) for 20 seconds?! There is a reason controllers and dominators have powers like that! They are notably more fragile and in return have powerful control aspects. 

 

With a pbaoe placate, In essence with a ton of patience, you 'could' in effect go from level 12 to level 50 with never being taking a point of damage, you might as well just farm the character up to 50 and put it on a shelf at that point.

[Snowdaze]

I will say, I am open to the idea of dropping the prerequisites for the concealment pool for stalkers alone, if at all possible. It wouldn't be beyond the realm of theme for them since they already have incredibly similar powers to the pool, given the stipulation they take the placate from their primary.

 

In short I would be ok with Hide and placate counting toward the 2 power requirement for the concealment pool.

[Replacement]

38 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

It's not bad at utility, it does exactly what it was designed for. If you really want it to be AoE, then to maintain balance you are going to have to increase recharge and reduce duration. I'd much rather have the current longer single target effect that I can use more often.

 

Too frequently people just want something to do more, and they need to consider the full reach of what they want, because more often then not what they want is much more powerful then they think. The suggested change to Placate "level 12 power" (simply making it aoe) would for all intents and purposes would make it arguably MORE powerful then the current Moment of Glory "level 38 power" (I still want old MoG back but we arent talking about that here).

While we are in disagreement, I appreciate your approach, here.  Looking at the end-goal of what an aoe placate means, and how that compares to other abilities.

 

Your fear then, is that setting this to aoe essentially makes you invincible for the duration, since you cannot hit what you cannot target.

 

My counterpoint, then, would be a low target cap.  For example, we could start with a target cap of 4 and only creep upwards if it feels warranted.  This would, afterall, end up on a Beta server first. 

This is also why I like my chaining suggestion earlier, which has an associated cost (Assassin's Focus opportunity cost) as well as a target limit instead of just "this whole raid's worth of mobs."

[Snowdaze]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

While we are in disagreement, I appreciate your approach, here.  Looking at the end-goal of what an aoe placate means, and how that compares to other abilities.

 

Your fear then, is that setting this to aoe essentially makes you invincible for the duration, since you cannot hit what you cannot target.

 

My counterpoint, then, would be a low target cap.  For example, we could start with a target cap of 4 and only creep upwards if it feels warranted.  This would, afterall, end up on a Beta server first. 

This is also why I like my chaining suggestion earlier, which has an associated cost (Assassin's Focus opportunity cost) as well as a target limit instead of just "this whole raid's worth of mobs."

I still feel unless it cancels all affected upon you attacking one, it is still a very measured increase in power, as you will be able to continue attack with out fear of reprisal from other enemies.

[Replacement]

52 minutes ago, Snowdaze said:

I still feel unless it cancels all affected upon you attacking one, it is still a very measured increase in power, as you will be able to continue attack with out fear of reprisal from other enemies.

I'd take that exchange.