Weekly Discussion 53: How to Increase Villain Population

[GastlyGibus]

Yeah, my original suggestion wasn't meant to lock players out of the other branches. It was to say "hey, if you're a mercenary, here's a contact line that focuses on contracts and bounties." The same way Praetoria doesn't lock you out of one line if you choose the other. It simply would be a method for players to choose what kind of content they want to play. 

[GastlyGibus]

Double posting, but I had another idea too.

Villains need more ways to feel like their evil-deeds are actually affecting the world. I think it'd be really cool if redside had a task-force where on completion it triggers a blueside mini-invasion event. You could also have one blueside for parity's sake, triggering an event on redside.

It could be similar to the Rikti Invasion, but maybe not on a zone-wide scale. I'm thinking more contained the way certain zone events already are, like Steel Canyon fires or Skyway Troll raves. Redside could have a strike force where you stage an invasion in Paragon City, and upon completion, you could have a certain section of a blueside zone be "invaded" by Arachnos or some other evil group, complete with supervillains and others causing mayhem. Heroes get badges for stopping the invasions, and villain get badges for completing the strike force.

[Yoru-hime]

2 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

Yeah, my original suggestion wasn't meant to lock players out of the other branches. It was to say "hey, if you're a mercenary, here's a contact line that focuses on contracts and bounties." The same way Praetoria doesn't lock you out of one line if you choose the other. It simply would be a method for players to choose what kind of content they want to play. 

My misunderstanding then. I apologize.

[Chris24601]

23 hours ago, MTeague said:

Honestly I'd like to have a few Rogue story arcs where yea, you're a mercenary, but you have the OPTION to go with it heedless of who is harmed, and you have the OPTION to say "No, that's a line even I won't cross" and have options to work to foil your employer's schemes (and if you should happen to loot his bank account while you do it, well, that would be a happy coincidence....)

This has ALWAYS been my hangup playing red-side and why my Red characters basically turn hero around level 35 or so (Hardcase the demon hunter being about the last contact I regularly deal with).

 

I have zero interest in playing complete monsters. There's a reason most stories with villain protagonists generally center on their dealing with someone even worse (ex. John Wick) or on a heist where skill and deception is the primary method of the criminals (ex. Ocean's 11) rather than just busting in, shooting everything that moves, and then taking the money.

 

Too much of CoVs content is written as if you're the antagonist of a hero protagonist (i.e. plant these toxin canisters that will poison innocent people in exchange for money) instead of how comics that actually use a villain as the protagonist are written (ex. trying to get back at someone who's wronged you, taking down a corrupt business by robbing them blind, etc.). Too many include "eliminate all witnesses" kill-alls  despite stalkers and stealth being a thing that could let you get in and out without being seen at all like a proper cat-burglar.

 

Way more options to rob from the rich and corrupt and give to... whoever you choose... particularly at level 35+ would go a long way towards making Red-side playable for me. As it is I've got one rogue at level 42 who hasn't gone hero yet solely because I've introduced a friend to the game and they wanted to play red-side; but I spend almost all the time on that toon when I'm not on with them running radio missions, blue-side rogue to hero missions followed by red-side rogue missions to hold my alignment, First/Night Ward and RWZ content because actual level 40+ red-side content is generally repugnant.

[Peacemoon]

9 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

Yeah, my original suggestion wasn't meant to lock players out of the other branches. It was to say "hey, if you're a mercenary, here's a contact line that focuses on contracts and bounties." The same way Praetoria doesn't lock you out of one line if you choose the other. It simply would be a method for players to choose what kind of content they want to play. 

That was my thought too. It’s really the only way the game could allow for different t layout types for villains.

 

 

[Eva Destruction]

I mean, personally I like playing the completely evil character who wants to take over the world and rule with an iron fist or who just wants to watch the world burn, but yes, I would also like to play a villain who just likes to take things that don't belong to them and doesn't want to hurt innocent people, and be able to take that path all the way to 50.

[Chris24601]

58 minutes ago, Eva Destruction said:

I mean, personally I like playing the completely evil character who wants to take over the world and rule with an iron fist or who just wants to watch the world burn, but yes, I would also like to play a villain who just likes to take things that don't belong to them and doesn't want to hurt innocent people, and be able to take that path all the way to 50.

Taking over the world and/or watching it burn is for the clinically insane.

 

In the first case, why put up with all the bureaucracy and scheming underlings that ruling the world would entail when you can just buy-off various politicians to pass/enforce whatever policies you want and not have to deal with either paperwork or all those plucky heroes/rebels and other would be conquerors putting targets on your back? Hell, if you buy off the right politicians and media groups you could get anti-superhero laws passed and make it look like it happened because of popular support of the masses have turned against them and you can then sic the police on them if they try to interfere with whatever you're up to.

 

In the latter case, unless you're one of those complete nihilists who wants to off themselves after killing the world, isn't it better to have all sorts of pretty and interesting places (not to mention food and nice clothes and gas for your luxury cars, planes and yachts... if this Covid thing has taught anything its the importance of infrastructure to civilization) to see as you enjoy your stolen loot and legal loopholes that allow you to indulge in all your vices without fear of prosecution? Seriously... does your supervillain want to live in a world without toilet paper? Cause if you burn the world down that's what you're going to be doing.

 

See... that's the fundamental problem with most of the CoV content; it presumes you're mentally ill instead of a criminal genius. :D

 

ETA: What I would MOST like to see Red-side is the canonization of what the Live Dev running Lord Recluse said during the "Going Rogue" invasion event... "Protect the Shrimp-Industry! Do you really think we can sustain an economy off an endless cycle of bank thefts?"

Edited June 3, 2020 by Chris24601

[ImpousVileTerror]

Ok . . . SO!

       I've been writing this post since Sunday, but the topic is one which I am so passionate about, I just kept revising and double-checking stuff, and revising and- . . . et cetera.  Meanwhile, the whole thread continued on without me, and some fantastic posts were made!  Excellent points have been raised, great ideas have been shared, and wonderful perspectives have been exquisitely expressed.  At this time, I think I'll just look like a bit of a complete fool to post all of this without giving this little bit of context first (not that I'm _not_ a complete fool, mind you).  After all, a lot of what I try to say here is stuff which other posters have already said, give or take.

       Therefore, the following is what I had intended to post, just in case anyone cares for yet another perspective on the topic.

  

       The following post was pretty big.  To help you navigate it, I've broken it up in to various parts.  This should also help other members of the community who choose to apply Reputation to the parts they agree or disagree with as they see fit, rather than lumping it all together as a single prospect.  I have created a Table of Contents to help with navigation.  
       To utilize the Table of Contents if the hyperlinks fail, use your browser's Find/Search function (typically Ctrl+F) and type in the numeral and title for the respective section as it appears below.
-------

1 - Introduction

2 - Aesthetic Changes

3 - New Content (Zones / Enemies / Missions)

4 - Villain Motivation and Agency

5 - Heroes of Redside, Villains of Blueside

6 - Arachnos

7 - "There Are Plenty of Islands in the Isles"

8 - The Level 8 Strike Force

9 - Zone Events

10 - Rewards

11 - Archetypes and Null

12 - Socialization

13 - Final Thoughts

-------

 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by ImpousVileTerror
Attachment meant for later showed up early, and realized that I can now just turn the Table of Contents in to a series of URLs.

[ImpousVileTerror]

1 - Introduction:
       This is one which is probably in my Top 5 Most Passionate Subjects, and something which I've done a lot of reflection on, a lot of asking around on, and a lot of analyse of.
       So . . . be prepared for a MONSTER of a post.
 
       It's also one where we've collectively brought up the subject many times.
https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/18738-sciroccos-patron-arc-encapsulates-everything-i-dont-like-about-redside-writing/?tab=comments#comment-208906
       So often, in fact, that I already had a small compilation of threads on the subject from a previous post!
 
       Once I get some other activities/events under control, I'm going to focus my attention on the community project linked to above.  
       I've also been in touch with another player **!!!** who has been working on compiling their plans for a motivation-based villain gameplay system.  I like what ideas they were springing off of me, and I hope they finalize the first draft soon.  They plan to post it in the Suggestions Board once it's ready, although it seems a lot of other people have suggested pretty similar ideas in this very thread.
 
       And as one final note; I come from a very roleplay-focused perspective.  I like game mechanics to serve the game lore, but I also acknowledge the need for shorthand abstraction in the name of enjoyment.  I would suspect that an exact simulation would not be as appealing as the game we have now.
 

**!!!**

They just posted it!

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/19762-new-redside-content-ambitions/

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by ImpousVileTerror
Adding Link!

[ImpousVileTerror]

2 - Aesthetic Changes:
       On an entirely personal and greedy standpoint:  Please, don't "spruce up" the Isles.  The current aesthetic is personally one of the biggest draws.   The Villain zones are TEEMING with life and characterization.   If something -optional- could be done in that department, sure, okay.  But Redside is beautiful just the way it is.
       However . . . the complaint does come up often enough, so it definitely merits attention.  The draw of certain aesthetics is a deeply personal and subjective thing, but perhaps we can attempt to explore some sample mock-ups of the Isles with some different palette options, luminousity, and contrast settings.  Post those images up and see which ones obtain traction under certain criteria, such as:
- Meets the narrative resonance of the Etoile Isles as "The City of Villains."
- Inspires player interest.
- Allows for players' continued, long-term viewing of the material.
       Naturally, still image mock-ups won't give the full picture (excuse the pun) of what the Isles would "feel like" to explore and interact with within the three-dimensional space, but it would be a good step toward some market research.
 
       The feasibility on this, of course, is pretty iffy.  Doing a graphical asset overhaul of an entire portion of the game is NOT a small undertaking.  So, unless the market research shows overwhelming support of the changes, it's really not something obtainable (to the best of my knowledge . . . still wish I could see what we're really working with in terms of developmental experience, skill, time, and resource allocation).
 

 

[ImpousVileTerror]

3 - New Content (Zones / Enemies / Missions):
       Yes, please.
       But, really, that's true for every aspect of the game, no?  Generally the people decrying the prospect of "MORE" are arguing against overwhelming a limited volunteer staff with too much work, and (to the best of my reading, anyway) not arguing against content for content's sake alone.
  
       What we've seen from the Base Builder, however, is that there are incredibly talented players with exquisite skill and impeccable visual design knowledge.  Giving these players access to devkit tools to build actual Zones, frankly, should be a priority.  Naturally level design with an understanding of gameplay function and resource management isn't the same thing as making a gorgeous base, but they're learnable skills.  At worst, we have the creatives make the zones as part of a first-pass, and then have the level designers refine, optimize, and populate the zones.
       Teamwork solves many problems, especially with solid direction guiding such teams.  I really believe this is one of the most feasible methods to Redside vitalization, and it also applies for the entire game at large.
  
       The prospect of New Enemies is, much like the zone work, something that is obtainable as far as I can see.  And, like the zones, we have many players who are chomping at the bit to share their creations.  Naturally, new 3D asset resources are not a simple matter, so such enemies would likely need to recycle existing assets.  As we've seen with Icon/Paragon Chat under -n conditions, there are undeniably talented creatives who can make absolutely stunning creations with what is already available, but locked away.
       Of course, new content of this kind requires a great deal of testing, so there's some overhead there.  Mathematical analyse would need to take place, balancing cycles, et cetera, et cetara.  All worthwhile, of course.  And this is the sort of thing which also seemed to offer a bigger draw back on Legacy for Beta Testing.  Again, doable, but with barriers to overcome in terms of opening up and delegating work from a managerial position.
  
       New Missions . . . this is where I'm probably an odd voice of dissent.  I'm not in the "open the floodgates" camp on this one, but also firmly against that damnable "Sturgeon's revelation" bullshit.  When it comes to this, more than anything other form of new content, I firmly believe THIS is the one which -needs- teams to create.   @holymittens  did a stellar job of the new Rogue and Vigilante arcs, though . . . how much of that was holymittens being given free reign, and how much of it was a collective effort?  In either case, I think it was great stuff, and I'm sad to see that more of it hasn't come up in the past few Pages of updates.
       But, yeah.  Writing teams.  Editors.  Directors.  Community engagement during the creative process.   No, I'm not saying "make story creation a democratic process."  I'm saying "take care to examine this particular creative process from significant, diverse points of view."  Story content by its nature occupies this position of fundamental importance.   Aside from gameplay mechanics, it is "THE Content" for games in general.  And in a game like City of Heroes / City of Villains . . . well . . . more of this subject later, when we get to the part about Villain Motivation below. (Section 4)
  
       In all three cases, of course, there's another element to examine before committing:  Computational resources.   Not the developmental resources.  With outsourcing and directed teamwork, I think that's frankly a solved problem just waiting on approval.  No . . . I mean . . . how much raw data are we adding to the PIGGs?  How much server load?  What effects would these have on both server performance and individual player performance?   Who's going to refactor and optimize all of this?  I mean, we already know that Kallisti Wharf, Night Ward, and First Ward are absolute NIGHTMARES for lower end rigs.  How much worse would it get if we just "add more?"
       And, of course, the "can't share I26 code for risk of lawsuit" spectre looms over us.  OuroDev is a good stepping stone over that, though.  But also seems the Homecoming Team are avoiding expressly instructing members of the community to focus attention in particular areas.  Whether that's due to the Team not wanting to stifle creativity, or a matter of being fearful that it would be tantamount to endorsing activities which might carry a punitive legal ramification . . . well, I hope we can get some real clarity on all of these subjects at some point, with as little mincing of words as possible.

 

[ImpousVileTerror]

4 - Villain Motivation and Agency (or "The Lackey Problem")

       Yeah

       . . . this beast.

 

       As mentioned, I tried to get a community project rolling to address this.  While it definitely garnered attention and interest, it has had little in the way of progress for a while now.   I will definitely be focusing attention on it again once I get my plate cleared, though.  It's something that has been on my radar ever since being invited to City of Villains' First Wave Beta.  And really, it's not uniquely a problem for Redside; there are Blueside, Neutral, and Yellowside Missions which are also guilty of stealing the player's agency to determine their characters' motivations, feelings, and behaviour.  It's just that when it comes to villainy, the old "Heroes React, Villains ACT" mantra that was being repeated since CoV's alpha development cycle (probably sooner, even) . . . well!  It's true in theory, but in practice the existing writing falls far short of delivering in that department.

       The most common "argument" against correcting this is the "but it's an MMO, you can't fix it."  I don't mean to get toxic in saying this, but I honestly feel sorry for people who see things that way.  It strikes me as such a dearth of creative problem solving . . . I feel awful for saying this.  English isn't necessarily the best language, but it DOES offer us some wonderful tools in terms of writing through different personages.  Much of the most problematic writing in this game is either from a First-Person or Second-Person perspective.  The best way to address villain motivation is to get in there and rewrite everything to Third-Person.

 

       Don't:

"This uptight shrink has analyzed you for a series on notable villains in the Protector. She says your violent tendencies stem from an unhappy childhood and feelings of inadequacy, and that you suffer from extreme intimacy issues. Words do not describe the rage welling inside you."

       Do:

"Doctor Vanover is a popular newspaper psychotherapist who writes for the Rogue Isle Protector.  She has published her analyses on the psyches of a number of notable villains, $MISSION_LEADER included.  Vanover makes sweeping generalizations about violent tendencies stemming from an unhappy childhood and feelings of inadequacy, followed up by claims of extreme intimacy issues.  She's likely angered many villains with publicized claims like these, which makes her a valuable target for kidnapping."

 

       As much as the rewritten version of this is "scrubbed" of the original flavour, and as much as the original flavour was "fun," this rewrite places all the power to define the player-character squarely in the hands of their player.  It also doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility of the original motivation either.  The player can still say, to themself or to their teammates, "words do not describe the rage welling up inside of me!"   It is the player's choice now, as it always should have been.

 

       This isn't impossible.  This isn't even difficult.  It's not some imaginary ideal which can't be obtained.  But it would be a truly massive undertaking.   We're talking about doing editorial work on pretty much the entirety of the game's writing.  A task where whoever works on this project would need to retain the original intent of the material, and keep as much impact as possible.  Hence my attempt to encourage it as a community project.  Distributed work is productive work, assuming it has strong direction.  And the more we do this work, the better we can become at refining it.

       Obviously, not everyone will be a fan of this kind of change.  There are clearly players here who are expecting and enjoy an experience where they trust the author to know the player-character better than the player does.  I think that kind of writing is perfectly fine and dandy . . . for games like Uncharted, or The Last of Us, or even Mass Effect.  But City of Heroes, and ESPECIALLY City of Villains?  No thank you.  I will not speak for everyone, but I -AM- certain that I am not alone in wanting agency over my own characters.  I have done a LOT of research on this particular issue and the impact it has on other players' enjoyment.  A lot.

 

       Of course . . . 

       A complete rewrite of the game's narrative content is NOT the only way to start addressing this issue.

       Or at least, it's not the easiest way.

       While some people were apparently up in arms about it, the premise behind  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/19486-more-info-when-looking-at-contacts/ is solid.   If we were to apply that treatment to Redside content, we could forewarn players about what motivations the content is written to express.  I think that would be a huge improvement, giving players the authority to say "okay, hold on.  This arc says 'Villain wants money?'  Yeah, not my villain.  Pass."

       But then naturally, we would then have to provide more content to compensate for the loss of potential paths that player will now choose to take.  But the prospect of new content is generally received more favourably than the suggestion of changing existing content, even if the change is relatively superficial.

 

       Someone **!!!** approached me recently with a lovely idea, which I -really- hope they'll post soon.  But, to wet some appetites, the concept is pretty simple:  A new villain chooses a Motivational Contact at character creation.  Much like the Epic Archetype Contacts combined with the Yellowside "Path" Contacts, this Contact would be persistent throughout the entire villain character's career from level 1 to level 50.  Every 5 Levels they would give the player a story arc which is specifically catered to the Motivation the player chose at the start.  Beyond that, I have lots of ideas of how I'd implement this idea, but it's someone else's baby.  I am going to give them a chance to post their take on it before I twist the idea in to my own thing.

 

**!!!**

They just posted it!

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/19762-new-redside-content-ambitions/

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by ImpousVileTerror
Adding Link.

[ImpousVileTerror]

5 - Heroes of Redside, Villains of Blueside

       This is an idea which I really like.   It's also an idea which I know a non-zero number of people vehemently oppose.  Complaints range from the standard "it'll break the game," to the "narratively there's no justification," to the "but it'll make PvP happen."

 

       The game might be pretty fragile, with little changes completely shattering seemingly unrelated components that are "miles away" from the affected code, but as someone who was part of City of Villains Beta . . . I know that it's already possible.  The potential exists within the game code already for this to be added (or, more accurately:  Polished and reactivated).   It's not an insignificant amount of work by any stretch of the imagination; no mere toggle flip . . . but it IS possible.  And even if the code which existed during the City of Villains Beta is not stable enough to use, we DO have Rogues and Vigilantes; the proof is in the pudding right there.  Even if we have to create a NEW Hero Alignment and a NEW Villain Alignment, with their own unique rules for cross-alignment Zoning, it -is- doable.

       The most significant challenge after the coding itself is that each zone would need to be changed to accommodate an opposing alignment Hospital, like the ones in Pocket D or PvP zones.  These would also need to be protected from opposing alignment interference (both player and NPC).  That's a daunting prospect, if only for the potential grief it could cause new players . . . but "bounce back" teleport areas exist, so these barriers don't necessarily need to be one-hit-"arrest" Drones.  Alternatively, the "invading" player would get bounced back to some other zone's Hospital on their native side.

 

       Narratively there is a TONNE of justification!   The Mayhem missions.  The Rogues Gallery and NPC Hero factions.  The Longbow and Arachnos bases in enemy territory.  Not to mention that there are Heroes who have lived their whole lives in the Etoiles (Sea Witch, Scrapyard, Iron Widow), and . . . well, throw a Rock, and you'll hit any number of Villains in Paragon City.  Now . . . yes, there is a -little- problem in terms of "shouldn't all Heroes and Villains be instantly hostile to one another under these conditions?"   Yeah, ok, there's a bit of a narrative disjoint there.  But diplomatic immunity is a thing.  It might take a little mental gymnastics to get there, but I think we can come up with firmer justifications.

 

       PvP is not necessary.  The alignment code is a lot more robust than some people seem to think it is.  Again, not an insignificant amount of work to implement, but the code would even potentially allow for players to choose whether or not to flag themselves for PvP as part of their alignment.  

"Conditional" is the current behaviour when a Rogue or Vigilante attempts to join a team containing a Hero or Villain respectively.

"Neutral" would function like the Warburg PvP, where members of a given alignment can attack one another OR join up in to a team, at their discretion.

 

       The next significant hurdle, though, is adjusting all of the Contacts.   Most of the Redside Contacts are already flagged specifically for Villains, as I recall, but Blueside?  Some of them are a little . . . confused.  Turning a Rogue away for not being a hero at times, but then allowing a Rogue to complete what is clearly a heroic story arc just because it wasn't explicitly flagged as "Hero" in the code.  THIS would be yet another can of worms' worth of work.  Additional Contacts would also need to be added, lest the Heroes of the Rogue Isles and the Villains of Paragon City just end up being a bunch of Street-Sweeping tourists.  Ultimately, though, this would also give a wonderful opportunity for Vigilantes to get the much unrepresented "cleaning up the City of Villains" gameplay they were promised when the middling alignments were first introduced.

       This also wouldn't necessarily "solve" the problem with people feeling the Isles are too dreary, but might at least motivate those players to play alignments or in zones they wouldn't normally consider.

 

       At the very least, investigating this for the Hazard Zones . . . there's potential there.  Boomtown seems the most accessible.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by ImpousVileTerror
Attachment glitched out.

[ImpousVileTerror]

6 - Arachnos

       Again, I'm kind of a dissenting voice here, but I -like- Arachnos.  I like the aesthetic.  I like the lore.  I like the potential they have for telling interesting stories from both the players and from the mission/content authors.  I like the transhumanism and social Darwinism turned up to Eleventy-billion, with both the messy and ugly ramifications of each.  They really are a great tool to use to justify so much of the limitations that come up with creating a setting where morality and rules of law are antagonistic to the player-characters.  If anything, I think Arachnos should be demonstrated to be -more- competent and effective.  They're not perfect; oh no, I'm not -that- delusional.  But they DO have a stranglehold on the Isles for a series of good, narratively-justified reasons.  They should be threatening and menacing, but continue to appreciate the "free agents" which the player-villains represent.

 

       That said . . . "underground" / anti-Arachnos paths for player-villains would NOT be a bad thing in the slightest.   Having non-Arachnos Hospitals and Trainers in every zone, and the possibility to piss off Arachnos enough for them to become hostile to the player-character would be a breath of fresh air for a LOT of players.  Each Island could have its own underground.  Vahzilok in Mercy.  Family in Oakes.  Goldbrickers in Cap.  Sky Raiders in Sharkhead.  Tsoo in Martial.  Crey in Grandville.   All of these organizations do not necessarily need to be hostile to player-villains.  They could offer the amenities to the villains in exchange for all sorts of favours, or just because they're afraid of the player-villains.  Lots of options here!

 

       And, dating back to the old Jenkins meme during City of Villains Beta, there was this thread where a player was under the impression that City of Villains was going to be all about the player's rise through various existing villain factions in the game.  The thread was a bit on the toxic side of things, as I recall, and it became the Jenkins meme to squelch some ranty complaints . . . but the idea still has some potential legs to stand on.   Not at all a small undertaking (are ANY of these ideas, though?), but creating a Faction Reputation system, which player-villains could navigate to try and make various NPC Villain Factions either Neutral or even Allies.   That has a very compelling ring to it . . . but I can see it being an undertaking that would require the equivalent of a whole new expansion's worth of code and content.

 

[ImpousVileTerror]

7 - "There Are Plenty of Islands in the Isles"

        I notice some people are asking to take over the Rogue Isles.   Ambitious!   Also impractical for several reasons.   However, that doesn't mean that player-villains couldn't potentially take over -some- islands.   Naturally, we can already roleplay that much, and just play pretend.  The free Base Building fills that role nicely.   But it would also be nice if the game rewarded us with something of this nature.  Perhaps tied to the likes of the Motivation Contact mentioned above, or linked to existing Strike Forces or similar challenging content.  An island fortress for every villain who dares prove themself strong enough!  Truly inspiring!

       The developmental resources to make something like this, however, would be monumental.  We'd be looking at a whole new Expansion to the game if we really wanted to deliver on this idea to its basic level of necessity.  I hope to some day find myself with the time and capacity to write a design document along these lines, including a breakdown of stages of implementation to make it more accessible for development . . . but that's a distant dream right now.  If someone else wants to tackle it, I would be happy to be a consultant!

       Having representation of the material and resources used to maintain the Isles would also be good.   We have Sharkhead as the primary industry island, and Cap au Diablo as the main information technology hub.  But Port Oakes isn't QUITE port enough.  And while I don't know if the official lore expressly states it anywhere . . . yeah, krill farms are -totally- a thing.  Using people as the only ingredient in NutriPaste would be silly.  Obviously the human meat and human meat by-product content in each tube of NutriPaste is less than 2%.  Factory accidents.   And the fact that they're generally DNA matches for people who were enemies of the Family are TOTALLY coincidental.

        Not to mention that there are EXPRESSLY stated to be uncharted islands south of the Arachnos-controlled Etoile Islands.  The Isles are RIPE for expansion!

 

[ImpousVileTerror]

8 - The Level 8 Strike Force (honestly, this numbering just happened by fluke)

       I've been slowly writing a Level 8 Strike Force titled "Not A Lackey"

       Set in Port Oakes, the premise is:  A property tycoon wants to build some new grand towers on the south-eastern coast of Port Oakes, but needs to scare some locals out of their homes so that his construction crew stop objecting to the work orders to bulldoze homes.  Since the tycoon can't find construction crews that are professionally competent AND psychotic enough to just bulldoze people's homes with the people still in them, he's hiring Villains to do that dirty work for him.

       The thing is, he's going to be completely insufferable.   Dismissive.  Grandiose.  Egocentric.  Complete megalomaniac.   And to top it off, he'll finish his mission recruitment screed with the line:  "Now shut up, and do what I'm paying you for, you worthless lackey."

 

       At that point, the mission leader can either choose to take the job, which will be underwhelming and end the Strike Force after a single mission with a pitiful reward, and no Badge.

       OR

       The team leader can select the reply which is tantamount to "I'm not your lackey" which launches the -actual- Strike Force, where the player-villains go around Port Oakes absolutely ANNIHILATING all of the businessman's assets, just to prove the point.  During this rampage, hints will be dropped to a big score, which leads in to the rest of the story arc.  The grand finale would find the player-villains coming back around to apply a coup du grac to the tycoon's "little empire," while scoring a big payout from the grateful, but terrified Port Oakes locals.  

       This Strike Force would award the badge "Not A Lackey" for player-villains to wear proudly (until they get something more appropriate).

 

       So, it sounds a little "heroic" on paper, and I would be taking my own advice and writing the arc with less of a firm hand on player-character motivation . . . but generally the idea is to provide an experience for low level villains which says "you can, and may blaze your own path, despite what you Contact wants from you."  While that would set a poor precedent if nothing else changes on Redside, I think it would be a great first step to vitalizing Redside with an example of what COULD be offered.

       @holymittens  . . . is this something we might be able to collaborate on?

 

[ImpousVileTerror]

9 - Zone Events

       These pretty much already exist in every zone except Mercy, to some degree or another . . . but I dunno.  They're all rather one-and-done and reactionary, like the Hero Zone Events.  If we don't invest in some of the other ideas proposed, perhaps Villain Zone events could take some inspiration from:   https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/17554-make-red-side-great-again/?tab=comments#comment-194213

       Give players the authority to trigger the Zone Events.  Maybe have three to five events per Zone.  This can circle back to our other ideas about motivation as well.  A Zone Event that's about stealing.  A Zone Event that's about becoming infamous.  A Zone Event that's about gathering loyal followers.  Each of these in each Redside Zone.

 

[ImpousVileTerror]

10 - Rewards

       As addressed numerous times here and in other threads; if you flat-out increase rewards to be better than Blueside, you're not attracting players who want to experience Villain content.  You're attracting people looking for rewards.  These people will just go wherever whenever they want.  I certainly can't see people who are chiefly motivated by Inf or Merits or anything like that as the target audience of this weekly discussion.

       Of course, -balancing- rewards is a must.  As it stands, Redside seems to have a LOT of Defeat All missions in story arcs which have single-digit Merit rewards tied to them.  That's just a pain in the ass.  A system which automatically balances rewards based on Shard's alignment population could also be interesting, if a nightmare to implement.  But we shouldn't forget Yellowside if that comes up!

 

[ImpousVileTerror]

11 - Archetypes and Null Sheen, Chummer

       Honestly, I don't see Null the Gull as a problem.

       Crazy, I know, right?

       I like that players have choices.  The fact that Null exists does change the dynamic of the alignment system, but I really like how divorced from the original gameplay alignments have become.  Alignments, as far as I'm concerned, should primarily relate to the player's definition of their own characters.  Using alignment to gate content . . . eh, I'm not a fan of gated content in general, but at least there's some thematic cohesion there.  On the flipside of that, I think it would also be nice if we leaned in to Null's function with some in-lore justification.   Falsified Hero Licences/Arachnos Villain Registration, stuff like that.  So, our characters aren't necessarily "True Heroes" or "True Villains," but instead using Null (or a replacement NPC/Contact) to get a "day pass" to the other side.

       In other words:   Make it ludonarratively resonant, rather than something that's merely a "gameplay cheat."

 

       Similarly, if you lock off Archetypes, you're just punishing players' creativity.  This will just end up with bitter resentment, and it won't actually inspire anyone to play Redside; just power-level through it until they can switch sides.  Forcing players "to stay" on Redside?   That will just breed contempt for Redside.  Providing motivation for players to CHOOSE to stay on Redside is what will win people over.

 

[ImpousVileTerror]

12 - Socialization

       One of the hurdles that exists is communication.  Players looking for groups and teams have to expressly state which side they're on, which sometimes leads to resentment, from what I've witnessed in the LFG channel from time to time.  I've even heard that the game still apparently has cross-alignment chat in Shard-wide channels shut off by default.  Is that true?   If so, that's pretty awful, and should be corrected.  I think the solution there is to further improve the ease of use for existing social tools, which has the added benefit of improving quality of life for all players regardless of alignment.   A little tag in the chat to see which alignment someone is when they send messages would also be handy.  H = Hero, G = viGilante, R = Rogue, V = Villain, P = Power, S = reSponsibility, W = Warden, C = Crusader.  (While we're at it, getting a numerical value next to a character's name based on your Rating of that Player could be a handy feature, as suggested in another thread, but I digress!).

       A dedicated social space Redside might help.  I do my best to run the Rikti Monkey Fight Club Events in Sharkhead Isles ( https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/15702-monkey-fight-club-its-not-a-secret-anymore/ ) . . . but that's not nearly as accessible as what Blueside has in Atlas Park (and -had- in Galaxy City).  Some additional spaces made expressly for roleplay would be wonderful.   Perhaps in that Arachnos building which Redside players now start next to . . . post some signage, indicating which doors players can enter.  THEN, add 5 rooms to it.  A meeting room similar to Lord Recluse's Lieutenants Chamber in Grandville.  A Magical room.  A Technology room.  A Science room.  And something else flavourful . . . like a prison full of Longbow and would-be heroes.  BONUS POINTS!  Add a feature so that as you complete various Redside missions, Heroes that you defeat will show up in these prison cells, much like how Hestaby's spouse shows up next to him when you complete the Atlas Park Story Arcs.

 

       Player-run-and-GM-supported, or even GM-run Redside events would also be a HUGE motivator.  Have some contests or other events where GMs can reward Merits to attendees.  At the very least it might convince a few people to -visit- the Isles for a while.  And once they're visiting, maybe they'll do a little bit more.

 

[ImpousVileTerror]

 13 - Final Thoughts

       As others have suggested, Redside might not be popular, but it IS loved by the people who love it.  Any sweeping changes made in an attempt to attract the Heroic Players are likely to just vex the current Villainous Players we have, while those Bluesiders are probably (at most) going to dip their toes in to try it, and then head back to the Blueside which they already prefer.  Similarly, people who are just playing for reward grinding will flip-flop wherever the "money is at."

       However, if development energy focused on enhancing the Redside experience with MORE STUFF, and didn't lose anything in the process, that would be a much healthier long-term prospect.  Give Redside the priority on rewriting content to provide players with more agency.  Give Redside new and interesting story arcs.  Give Redside the first taste of new gameplay features before they get proliferated to Yellowside and eventually Blueside.

       Of course, that's not to say that maybe Rogues and Vigilantes shouldn't get priority first.  As demonstrated by many contributors in this thread, there are plenty of people with all kinds of different expectations and desires.  Maybe Redside doesn't need more Villain'ness.  Maybe it needs broader representation.  The walls have been torn down, in no small part thanks to Null the Gull.  Let's EMBRACE that fact!  Let's move in to new territory where Redside doesn't necessarily means Villain Side, but also that Blueside doesn't necessarily mean Hero Side.  We have the opportunity to blaze some new paths here!

       As ever; let's get wild!   Let's get crazy!  Let's get CREATIVE!  And let us do it as a Team, together!  Homecoming represents a New Sunrise.  Paragon City and the Etoile Isles can still feel like home, even if we carve out entirely new experiences in both places, so long as we preserve what came before as well.

 

[Redlynne]

And people (like me) accuse me of writing walls of text ...

[MTeague]

Honestly, I'd just be happy if Arachnos 100% ceased to exist.  I know, they wanted a Dark Mirror counterpart for States, etc, some big organization that could explain why it wasn't total anarchy or just steamrolled by NATO or the USA or Any Nation Really Peeved At What the Villains Have Done Lately.

But I'd have prefered if the Rogue isles were essentially a Failed State, with multiple oligarchs and shady organzations and black markets, but not an NPC Evil Overlord.

However, I'm realistic enough to know, this, will never change.  Much too much baked into the cake now. 

 

I do like the current CoV asthetic, but I do think it makes sense for areas that are controlled by certain factions to be better looking. 

Slums should be slums.  Aeon City should and does look nice.  St Martial is a prime example.  The glittering facade of money and power and dark underbellys all around. 

Nerva is.... Not my favorite zone.  Longbow has taken over half of it, and it's allowed to stand?  What?  They should have all been eviscerated long ago. 

And the islands in Nerva are MUCH too far spread apart.  It's really not a feasible zone to travel without flight or teleport unless you really really enjoy swimming. A smaller tighter archipelago would have been better.

 

 

[metacore]

EDIT: OK so while I was writing the below IVT posted their detailed and excellent write-up that one of their points covers the same as mine below but with more data.

===============
CoH/V has a limited population across all zones as is.
As an oceania player when I log in after work its usually pretty quiet on Blueside - looking for a team or any content is often met with silence.
So moving ~20% of that to Redside would make it even harder to find teams during quiet periods.

Increasing Rewards for staying Redside.
As ugly as it sounds we have the give the players a REASON to go Red and stay Red.

But what if...
what if we removed the blocks from playing in Blue, Red or Gold?
What if any player could jump into any zone on any side?
As a Hero shouldnt I be able to go into the bad city to take down a terrorist cell, without it needing to be a Task Force?
As a Villain shouldnt I be able to sneak (or charge with a shout) into the goody two shoes city to wreck havoc, steal money/jewels/special item X or assassinate the Mayor without needing a Strike Force?
I get that Gold zone is a different reality/dimension/whatever but by now its known about by the general populace. Why cant Blue/Red character go there to have a look and maybe help one of the factions (obv Gold side is level 20 capped so post-20 not much to do unless you exemplar down).

The fact that a Hero is running around in villainville or a Villain is running around in happytown makes no difference than them running in their "own zones" regarding the NPC's/enemies as they attack you anyway. Hero or Villain running in Talos will get attacked by the Warriors. Hero or Villain running in St Martial will get attacked by the Carnies.

This means the Weekly TF/SF can be whichever side you want.
Dont like the Blue WTF that week then do the Red WSF.
Tired of the KR/SC areas jump into Port Oakes/Cap.

This will allow the players to play in whatever zones they want without any need to "switch sides" or lock themselves out of playing with others.
If anything it opens the ENTIRE game to everyone.
"Running lvl 45 Redside content LFM" means ANYONE can jump in.
We already have submarines/helicopters to take villains into the Blueside. What would a Hero use to get into Redside (for those without a SG with both Red/Blue/Gold(?) teleporters or who wont use the Global TP Bases)?

The problem it does have is Heroes playing with Villains as that is roleplay breaking (in a nutshell).
We obviously allow this for certain activities but apart from the roleplay perspective what else does it break/hurt? When running an ITF or MSR or SBB or iTrial does anyone even care if the team members are from the "other sides"? How can you even TELL (apart from looking at their badges for side-specific ones)? Even if you can does anyone?

Keep the Alignments because A) its less things and system/sub-systems to change, B) allows people to still define themselves as Hero/Villain/Rogue/Vigilante.
Maybe add a "only team with people the same alignment, or 1-step away alignment" flag if you want to NOT team with the other side?

Edited June 4, 2020 by metacore

[Sillow]

Add a City of Villains Homecoming theme to the forum (or if there already is one, let me know where it is in options) >:) Feels to me like the name and the blue prime people towards heroes subconsciously. 

 

I try and keep my characters villains in game but it's very inconvenient. Probably has been said but I'll say it anyway: removing the restrictions for heroes/villains in terms of going places and inviting people to teams would be nice. If everyone's a hero except for me, I have to get all the way over to RWZ before getting an invite instead of just being able to accept one while I'm in ouro.

 

Also I feel like there's a bias towards the hero classes in terms of balance. I came back after a year to find fury smoothed out and brute max dps capped while Tankers get more aoe/easier defense and resist caps/competitive damage. People make brutes outside of wanting to farm AE content ya know. It was like this last year when CoH came back and blasters had all these crazy new secondaries alongside instant snipes, as well as scrappers doing crazy damage abusing zapp/moonbeam. Blasters feel better than their counterparts on redside, Tankers feel better than their counterparts on redside, and scrappers feel better than their counterparts on redside. Defenders also have that weird inverted relationship where they have the best modifiers so sets like sonic or dark end up being better than rolling the same thing as a corruptor. When I came back last year and immediately started pushing content on Torchbearer, these things were noticeable. Now it's all been boiled down to Fire/fire blaster, TW/Bio scrapper, and Cold/fire def or fire/cold corr, along with the current bug making tar patch insanely powerful. 

 

Now could I be a villain version of those hero classes? Sure. But in my head Brute/Corr/Masterminds/Doms/Soldiers/Stalkers are so ingrained with the villain identity that seeing them in this relatively weaker state hurts. Could I also solo the entire game with any of those classes and IOs? Yeah, of course. City of X has never been a hard game. It's just increasingly more time intensive compared to being efficient with instant snipes and crits and all that jazz.

 

I was grateful seeing some of the love Dominators saw last year especially with earth assault. I want more of that. I would like to see interesting buffs to Brutes to give them an identity that's just not "compromise between tanker and scrapper" at the moment. It's crazy to me how wide AOE is for tankers is after being a brute guy all my life. I want mastermind henchmen to run faster through instances or have a recall button like t4 inc to drop them unsuspectingly on a group of mobs. I would like to not have to throw out upgrades. 

 

Just make it easier to be a villain and those of us who love the redside will happy wait 7 days to keep our alignment frenzy without having to drop it to join the rest of the community 😛