Buffing Underpowered Support Sets

[Zeraphia]

I think there are four powersets in particular that most people identify as underpowered or at least "needs work": Sonic Resonance, Force Field, Poison and last but certainly not least, Trick Arrow. I think possibly starting a dialogue as to what people want to see improved from each set just in general may be nice to see. I'll open with some of my thoughts about each set individually:

 

Sonic has the bones to be a great set. It just needs some tweaks to help get it there. I think Sonic Siphon could have its animation time sped (2.17s is very long for a single target debuff), Sonic Replusion is pretty unilaterally seen as a "skip" power, but most of all, Liquefy is on way too long of a CD for what it does. I think bringing Liquefy's CD down to a more reasonable recharge time might help the set a bit overall. 

 

Force Field in particular is a "dated" but not "bad" set. Its trick (defense buffing) is sort of seen as more "meh" over the years due to how easily people are accruing defenses and how many other sets give defense but also substantially more "benefits" (time/cold). I don't think the way to go for this set is to make it more like Time, I think perhaps adding something like -def/-res on Replusion Bomb may be a decent idea (make sure it doesn't stack), and would make it stand out from Time. Even with that change it's not likely to become "S-tier!" but it would at least feel more powerful for teams.

 

Trick Arrow is getting buffs, but what in particular do you guys think should be buffed and how do you think this set should go in terms of its buffs? There are numerous takes on this set, and I don't think even breaking cottage rule for this set is out of the question given how poopoo'd its performance has been. 😞

 

Poison... probably seen as the best of these 4, also to some the most vulnerable of these 4. This set prones itself to dying, it doesn't offer much against alpha strikes unless you're willing to faceplant horrendously. It does excel at debuffing AV's, it does have many different specialty aspects which are appreciable, however many of its debuffs are extremely short in radius, really hurting and weakening the set in general against mobs for your time. I think improving the radius of some of the powers, reworking the heal to be better (in its current version it is a super slow to cast single target, weak heal, with an extremely slow projectile), while (possibly?) offering greater user protection would make this set play a little more forgiving or have greater overall utility rather than just being for single hard targets.

[drbuzzard]

20 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

I think there are four powersets in particular that most people identify as underpowered or at least "needs work": Sonic Resonance, Force Field, Poison and last but certainly not least, Trick Arrow. I think possibly starting a dialogue as to what people want to see improved from each set just in general may be nice to see. I'll open with some of my thoughts about each set individually:

 

Sonic has the bones to be a great set. It just needs some tweaks to help get it there. I think Sonic Siphon could have its animation time sped (2.17s is very long for a single target debuff), Sonic Replusion is pretty unilaterally seen as a "skip" power, but most of all, Liquefy is on way too long of a CD for what it does. I think bringing Liquefy's CD down to a more reasonable recharge time might help the set a bit overall. 

 

Sonic is the only one of these I play, and I do consider it underrated. However, you are correct that it could use a bit of love.

 

Liquefy, even on a perma-hasten build has too long a recharge. Honestly, while it is a good power, it's not anything close to an 'I Win' button, so the recharge is in the realm of silly (especially compared to a lot of the T9s out there). 

 

Sonic siphon, while I wouldn't skip it, is pretty 'meh' and could use a look. Perhaps the quicker animation like you suggest. That could help. 

 

Then there's sonic repulsion, which on its face looks like a dog, and should be skipped. However I teamed with a sonic once who slotted KB->KD into it, and dayum, that makes it into a great power. You put it on the same target as your sonic disruption, and you have a moving ice slick. It really is quite good. However, one has to know the trick, or it's a crap power. 

[Apparition]

As someone who had five Force Field characters before sunset and now two Sonic Resonance characters on Homecoming...  

 

I have said all of this before in this very forum, but:  Yes, the animation time for Sonic Siphon needs to be sped up by about a third, the endurance cost for Disruption Field needs to be cut by about a third, and the recharge time for Liquify needs to be cut in half.

 

Force Field needs a complete overhaul, cottage rule be damned.  If we didn’t have Cold Domination, Time Manipulation, nor IO enhancement sets, Force Field would be okie.  But we do, and together they all beat up Force Field and took its lunch money.  Force Field needs to pivot away from +defense to +absorb, either in part or in whole.  Add replenishing ticks of +absorb to Dispersion Bubble.

[Zeraphia]

22 minutes ago, Apparition said:

As someone who had five Force Field characters before sunset and now two Sonic Resonance characters on Homecoming...  

 

I have said all of this before in this very forum, but:  Yes, the animation time for Sonic Siphon needs to be sped up by about a third, the endurance cost for Disruption Field needs to be cut by about a third, and the recharge time for Liquify needs to be cut in half.

 

Force Field needs a complete overhaul, cottage rule be damned.  If we didn’t have Cold Domination, Time Manipulation, nor IO enhancement sets, Force Field would be okie.  But we do, and together they all beat up Force Field and took its lunch money.  Force Field needs to pivot away from +defense to +absorb, either in part or in whole.  Add replenishing ticks of +absorb to Dispersion Bubble.

I don't disagree, but what would you like to see FF turn into in order to differentiate itself from Time or Cold?

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Zeraphia said:

I don't disagree, but what would you like to see FF turn into in order to differentiate itself from Time or Cold?

Like I said, Force Field needs to pivot away from +defense to +absorb, either in part or in whole.  If in part, lower the +defense in half, and add in ticks of +absorb.  Or remove +defense entirely and make it all +absorb.  Absorption much better matches the concept of a force field.

[Force Redux]

FF:  I like my Defense. But compared to Time, which does so much more than what FF does. So additional tweaks:

 

Force bolt: improved to defender T1 attack damage with -Def debuff.

 

Dispersion Bubble: add replenishing Absorb and some DDR.

 

Detention Field: should work like Dimension Shift in Gravity, or be a Toggle hold that increases in Mag over time.

 

Repulsion Bomb. Improved damage and reduced cast time. Add a -Def component.

 

Repulsion Field: reduce End Cost. Allow KD proc to work more effectively with it. Right now it doesn't proc enough. Compare to Bonfire, please.

 

Force Bubble: provides three sub powers each with different radii: small (15'), medium (30') and large (60'). Choose the size you want. Also lower end cost.

 

Insulation Shield and Deflection Shield: each gives some DDR. 

 

These would help FF and still maintain theme. I say this as a long time FF player. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Force Redux

[Zeraphia]

7 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

FF: 

Force bolt: improved to defender T1 attack damage with -Def debuff.

 

Dispersion Bubble: gets replenishing Absorb and some DDR.

 

Detention Field: should work like Dimension Shift in Gravity, or be a Toggle hold that increases in Mag over time.

 

Repulsion Bomb. Improved damage and reduced cast time. Add a -Def component.

 

Repulsion Field: reduce End Cost. Allow KD proc to work more effectively with it. Right now it doesn't proc enough. Compare to Bonfire, please.

 

Force Bubble: provided three child powers each with different radii: small (15'), medium (30') and large (60'). Choose the size you want. Also lower end cost.

 

Insulation Shield and Deflection Shield: each gives some DDR. 

 

These would help FF and still maintain theme. I say this as a long time FF player. 

These are some fabulous suggestions! I'd be very happy if these were implemented! 🙂 Really well reasoned, but I do think possibly keeping Detention Field as is solely to not break cottage rule! Excellent ideas!

[MTeague]

I'm willing to work with changes.  But I have to ask, if only to throw the monkey wrench.... 

What is +Absorb going to really DO for force field? 

• I agree, thematic.
• I agree, would not face the "but I don't need any more +Def" you see from max-kitted-out-players at lvl 50.  
• HOWEVER... if said lvl 50 softcap players are not being hit in the first place.... are they even going to NOTICE an Absorb Shield?  Are you just trading one defensive bubble they don't need for another defensive bubble that they don't need?  I'm fine with "well the current model has too many issues we have to try something" but...  I'm far from convinced this will make people say "I have a fever, and the only cure, is more force fields!"

[arcane]

I wouldn’t call poison underpowered. It’s volatility in terms of survivability is a reasonable tradeoff for its supreme debuffing imo.

 

For trick arrow I hope they will add another effect to poison gas arrow and/or disruption arrow with at least one of the two doing some -Regen. I also think flash arrow could afford to do a little more ToHit DeBuff even if at the cost of increasing the endurance and/or recharge.

Edited June 9, 2020 by arcaneholocaust

[Apparition]

41 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I'm willing to work with changes.  But I have to ask, if only to throw the monkey wrench.... 

What is +Absorb going to really DO for force field? 

• I agree, thematic.
• I agree, would not face the "but I don't need any more +Def" you see from max-kitted-out-players at lvl 50.  
• HOWEVER... if said lvl 50 softcap players are not being hit in the first place.... are they even going to NOTICE an Absorb Shield?  Are you just trading one defensive bubble they don't need for another defensive bubble that they don't need?  I'm fine with "well the current model has too many issues we have to try something" but...  I'm far from convinced this will make people say "I have a fever, and the only cure, is more force fields!"

Even if a player character has 90% defense to everything, all mobs still have a five percent chance to hit, and some stuff hurts.  Then there are things that hit regardless of defense, like the blue patches.  For those, an absorption shield would come in quite handy.

[ShardWarrior]

4 hours ago, Apparition said:

Force Field needs to pivot away from +defense to +absorb, either in part or in whole.

Interesting idea.  I wonder if something like having incoming enemy fire be reflected back at the attacker?  Reflection may make for an interesting mechanic.

[Leo_G]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

I'm willing to work with changes.  But I have to ask, if only to throw the monkey wrench.... 

What is +Absorb going to really DO for force field? 

• I agree, thematic.
• I agree, would not face the "but I don't need any more +Def" you see from max-kitted-out-players at lvl 50.  
• HOWEVER... if said lvl 50 softcap players are not being hit in the first place.... are they even going to NOTICE an Absorb Shield?  Are you just trading one defensive bubble they don't need for another defensive bubble that they don't need?  I'm fine with "well the current model has too many issues we have to try something" but...  I'm far from convinced this will make people say "I have a fever, and the only cure, is more force fields!"

I'm in agreement but also I have some regard for the cottage rule as well. 

 

If I were adding something, I'd suggest a damage buff to one of its powers that bypasses damage caps. Like a power that adds damage procs /effects like Shock Therapy's T9 but better. 

[Patti]

I like the sound of absorb in force field.  Also gives a reason to recast and take advantage of vigilance.

[MTeague]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

Even if a player character has 90% defense to everything, all mobs still have a five percent chance to hit, and some stuff hurts.  Then there are things that hit regardless of defense, like the blue patches.  For those, an absorption shield would come in quite handy.

Fair enough. I'll acknowledge, I don't have a better idea myself. 

I just do think it's likely to be a subtle effect that most players won't even notice, and FF will still be treated as "doesnt' do anything" by the same players who already don't notice it.

But maybe I'm just not seeing the other half of the equation since I tend to exemplar a LOT and only rarely run incarnate content.

[MTeague]

58 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Interesting idea.  I wonder if something like having incoming enemy fire be reflected back at the attacker?  Reflection may make for an interesting mechanic.

REFLECTION, I love the idea of.  I have no idea if the engine supports anything like that , though.

 

EDIT:  though I think for simplicity's sake, we'd probably need a "you can't reflect a reflect" rule to keep infinite chaining

Edited June 9, 2020 by MTeague

[ShardWarrior]

23 minutes ago, MTeague said:

EDIT:  though I think for simplicity's sake, we'd probably need a "you can't reflect a reflect" rule to keep infinite chaining

I was thinking something along the lines of a proc chance on a couple of the powers.  Something along the lines of the discussions of adding an Absorb proc into Resilience over in the Regen set. 

[Patti]

Reflectionmaybe could use henchies' damage share code?

[Outrider_01]

Want to throw in Electrical Affinity.  Its new, but it doesn't seem to be well thought out and is clunky like running a marathon wearing one boot and a sneaker. 

 

• Static is cool, but it serves no other purpose then increasing the number of targets to buff; at almost 20 stack there is no benefit over 5 unless you are in a raid.  90% of the time you are in a regular group; except for a large MM group and up to 42 pets.
• Faraday Cage is useless, 10 second resummon pet shield that adds +5 static.  Problem is the stationary summon and its the same size as Toggle bubbles while Maneuvers is twice, but it doesn't move so requires a lot of summoning.  For a ground summon, it should have a bigger radius.  Only benefit is the mez protection to your own character, like melee level.
• Galvanic Sentinel is a debuff pet, but it moves a bit slow and does zero damage.  I can't tell if this thing is dying off to fast or the 2 duration is wearing off it gets aggro easily, the hitpoints are low while the heal can't keep up.
• The 4 primary buffs Rejuvenating, Energize, Insulating, and Empowering are good but they need a slight duration increase.  It becomes an attack chain, you can't use your other set that much
• Rejuvenating Circuit needs a buff, for a heal its kind is kinda week with that target cap but not much benefit beyond 5 static 95% of the time,  Building static should increase something beyond the target cap
• LOL endurance drain, yeah its always a theme with electric but it just doesn't have much use and really limits the entire set with how many endurance modification.   Not enough -damage debuff outside the T1 and Galv Sent yet you gain aggro like crazy.
• Ampped - T9 defense god mode, should be more of a group buff and not a single target.  Especially as you can buff Galvanic Sent by accident if you lose your intended target.
• Defibrillator - This, This is the one power that needs a huge change.  That activation is so short range I have been stopped by my own team trying to rez someone by a pixel.  7 melee target AoE rez, same radius as Howling Twilight.  If you are going to go with a melee code, at least make it act like Spine Burst or other PBAoE attack so the rez just activates as that 7 melee to target kills the 25 radius when it doesn't activate.
• Static stack building vs Water blast building, works against each other.  when you are building 1 vs the other, more minor issue.

Its not really a bad set, it just feels like a 2004 release era set.  Practically complain about everything I know, but after a week of "Oh, these buffs are nice!" I got into the habit of acting like a heal bot.  Was getting frustrated, as I couldn't find a rhythm that broke it; buffs are so nice but frustrating to not cast them with the short recharge after enough haste.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Force Redux]

On my FF thoughts, I wanted to keep a few things in mind:

 

1. Not to radically change the powers from what they are. A lot of folks like the theme,and I feel that making a significant change in function and mechanics was counterproductive.

 

2. Improved what it does. As FF is the "Super Reflexes" of support sets, it should have some way of buffing Defense Debuff Resistance (DDR). Yes, many characters at Incarnate and with IOs can cap Defense, but keeping it is another thing altogether. This would help protect what FF grants. As the premier Defense-based super set it really should have been a given right from the start.

 

As well, improving the attacks (and damage) from the early Defender design philosophy of poor solo powers, can also help FF offer something else. A decent ranged attack helps Controllers and MMs. A decent ranged AoE that can take a -recharge proc helps everyone, Defenders included. It can also help out the more ST focused sets, such as Ice. Adding some -Def to both also helps FF contribute somewhat to group kill speed by virtue of some IO options. 

 

Giving Force Bubble optional sizes still keeps the power, but removes some of the common complaints about it's utility on various maps.

 

Repulsion Field, in a world of Bonfire available to many ATs, needs a review of how it handles procs and End Cost. Yes, it's mobile, but also caster centered, whereas Bonfire can be cast around corners or farther ahead with less aggro/risk...and it has damage. 

 

3. Add in some additional, yet thematically appropriate extras. Absorption in DB rounds out the protective nature of the set with a mechanic that is very suitable and should prove useful on many teams.

 

Detention Field is generally worthless, by common concensus , and needs to be reworked to function with actual team dynamics. This power didn't have wide use even in the slower team speed of Live, before IOs and Incarnated sped up team play. It was a clunker then, and it's a clunker now. It needs to do some sort of useful crowd control.

 

Just some extra thoughts. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Force Redux

[gameboy1234]

31 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

Detention Field is generally worthless, by common concensus , and needs to be reworked to function with actual team dynamics. This power didn't have wide use even in the slower team speed of Live, before IOs and Incarnated sped up team play. It was a clunker then, and it's a clunker now. It needs to do some sort of useful crowd control.

Making Detention Field a toggle seems to be the most obvious and easiest.  I'd like to see Detention Field get one of those two-powers-in-one where you get two buttons instead of one.  One buttons is Detention Field like is now but with a toggle control, and the other is a small targeted AOE hold.  Nicer for when you just want to zap a group rather than take one target totally out of the fight.

 

I'd also like to see Force Field get some sort of "gather together" type of power, like a targeted AoE.  Drop your target and everything in range gets yoinked towards the center.  Maybe add this to Repulsion Bomb, just rename it to Implosion Bomb.  Up the damage too as requested and you're there.  That would make the FF set unique and interesting again.

 

Adding DDR seems like a no brainer.  I don't have a good sense whether adding Absorb to the shields will help.  This might be really tough to balance, but if the devs are willing to give it a go I'd play test it.

 

Adding damage to Force Bolt for Defenders is fine.  Please whatever you do don't touch the -Fly and KB in this for Masterminds.  Knocking things into corners and knocking enemies out of the sky for my pets to chew on was the best thing about this set back on live.

 

[Replacement]

I always think it's weird that Poison's interesting schtick was added post-launch (the splashing).

Poison, I agree with what we've seen in other threads - splash more of the powers, increase splash radius.

I'd add 2 more: better vfx for enemies splashed, increased potency and recharge on the heal. A lot of folks want to see it sped up, but I'd rather just use it less often. Probably make it a HoT in 3 big chunks (and maybe just the first big chunk to splashed allies).

 

3 hours ago, Patti said:

Reflectionmaybe could use henchies' damage share code?

This is actually a really interesting idea. Iirc, original devs said they couldn't damage reflect, but this seems feasible if paired with some method of first tagging an enemy with a "mark" debuff. Such as from one of those redundant kb toggles. And/or Force bolt.

My only concern would be exploits. Depending on the specifics of how damage gets split, testing would be needed to ensure you couldn't use this to trash GMs.

 

Additional FF thoughts: I like the +absorb but don't want to see the set go all in on it. I wouldn't mind seeing some ally +damage.  think it's easy to forget that FF is really good for the +defense for most of the game. So the best buffs to it are probably the kinds that aren't strong enough to be noticeable until late game. Whatever that looks like.

 

[Zeraphia]

13 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Want to throw in Electrical Affinity.  Its new, but it doesn't seem to be well thought out and is clunky like running a marathon wearing one boot and a sneaker. 

 

• Static is cool, but it serves no other purpose then increasing the number of targets to buff; at almost 20 stack there is no benefit over 5 unless you are in a raid.  90% of the time you are in a regular group; except for a large MM group and up to 42 pets.
• Faraday Cage is useless, 10 second resummon pet shield that adds +5 static.  Problem is the stationary summon and its the same size as Toggle bubbles while Maneuvers is twice, but it doesn't move so requires a lot of summoning.  For a ground summon, it should have a bigger radius.  Only benefit is the mez protection to your own character, like melee level.
• Galvanic Sentinel is a debuff pet, but it moves a bit slow and does zero damage.  I can't tell if this thing is dying off to fast or the 2 duration is wearing off it gets aggro easily, the hitpoints are low while the heal can't keep up.
• The 4 primary buffs Rejuvenating, Energize, Insulating, and Empowering are good but they need a slight duration increase.  It becomes an attack chain, you can't use your other set that much
• Rejuvenating Circuit needs a buff, for a heal its kind is kinda week with that target cap but not much benefit beyond 5 static 95% of the time,  Building static should increase something beyond the target cap
• LOL endurance drain, yeah its always a theme with electric but it just doesn't have much use and really limits the entire set with how many endurance modification.   Not enough -damage debuff outside the T1 and Galv Sent yet you gain aggro like crazy.
• Ampped - T9 defense god mode, should be more of a group buff and not a single target.  Especially as you can buff Galvanic Sent by accident if you lose your intended target.
• Defibrillator - This, This is the one power that needs a huge change.  That activation is so short range I have been stopped by my own team trying to rez someone by a pixel.  7 melee target AoE rez, same radius as Howling Twilight.  If you are going to go with a melee code, at least make it act like Spine Burst or other PBAoE attack so the rez just activates as that 7 melee to target kills the 25 radius when it doesn't activate.
• Static stack building vs Water blast building, works against each other.  when you are building 1 vs the other, more minor issue.

Its not really a bad set, it just feels like a 2004 release era set.  Practically complain about everything I know, but after a week of "Oh, these buffs are nice!" I got into the habit of acting like a heal bot.  Was getting frustrated, as I couldn't find a rhythm that broke it; buffs are so nice but frustrating to not cast them with the short recharge after enough haste.

I have to agree to an extent that when I played EA it wasn't that it wasn't powerful and didn't have its uses... it was just that it was way way way way too clicky for me to play on anything other than a mastermind to really get the "shine" out of the set. It's just too busy trying to build up Static, I have to agree with the feeling of being a "healbot" and the Sentinel I wish was just an non-targetable  (for enemies) debuffer like Voltaic Sentinel but still allowed you to gain Statics with it if needed. I understand the appeal it has now, but that's just how I personally feel with it. 

 

(IIRC) as you build more static, the more the power/heal chains. 

 

I felt like Ampped should've probably given the secondary effects/defense/proc damage to one target, the the proc damage spreads to the entire group and it would've been excellent!

 

I hadn't noticed the Defib, but I'm sure it is as much as a problem as you say. 

 

The final thought, yes 100%. This is the main issue with the set, it is too clicky due to feeling constantly pressured to build Static over and over again.  Combining this with a secondary that has a "combo" mechanic like Water is horrendous and needs to be investigated IMO. 

[Mikewho]

EA fell into the same trap as Empathy, and I pointed this out in the beta: practically no offense. These days teams often don't have trouble surviving, meaning a lot of the time EA isn't contributing much.

It's fine at keeping the team alive, but offers almost zero offensive options. I suggested addressing that, but was told that wasn't something they wanted to do.

[arcane]

I find Electrical Affinity pretty dang exceptional in a lot of ways but do acknowledge endurance drain simply does not feel like a potent use of one’s time. Especially when using your most potent endurance drain power costs you all of your static stacks. Oh and galvanic sentinel is just useless if you’re on a team, which you should be with such a set. 
 

Besides that, I think the circuits, Amp Up, and Faraday Cage are extremely powerful if used properly, and I wouldn’t call the set underpowered as a result.

Obviously I can’t make an argument that Force Field isn’t in need of some serious help, but wish people would focus on improving the utility of the shields and leave set-defining PvP powers out of it. Force Bolt and Detention Field are awesome as is thanks 🙂

 

 

[Naraka]

19 minutes ago, Mikewho said:

EA fell into the same trap as Empathy, and I pointed this out in the beta: practically no offense. These days teams often don't have trouble surviving, meaning a lot of the time EA isn't contributing much.

It's fine at keeping the team alive, but offers almost zero offensive options. I suggested addressing that, but was told that wasn't something they wanted to do.

This is completely false.

 

It not only has an offensive buffing power that directly increases damage, it has indirect means of increasing damage via +ToHit, +END and +Rech buffs.

 

The prospect of Shock Therapy being too clicky, I feel that some sets need to be.  There are far too many sets that are set-and-forget or that have main bread-n-butter clicks that are used once a fight.  Having some sets favor more micromanagement is going to benefit certain styles and ATs more which isn't a bad thing.  It's called variety.  In the case of variety, there will exist inequality and that is okay.