Can you help an MM newbie decide on a his powersets?

[Damoklese]

Hey everyone,

 

So my friend and I duo in COH exclusively.  It has become our goal to find a couple of characters that we can use to get through the majority of the game's content in a duo. We both have over a dozen characters in the 22-32 lvl range, and are still struggling to find that perfect duo that gives us everything we want, and also allows us to complete challenging content.

 

Tonight I decided it was time to stop avoiding masterminds.  I am primarily a controller/defender fan.  I love using debuffs and buffs to control the battlefield, or just using control to control the battlefield.  I tend to simplify my builds to make them fast and dependable, rather than going for anything that is too "convoluted" or requires a lot of quick thinking/actions per minute.

 

So I was hoping some of you experienced MM players could help me decide on what route I should go for my first MM.  I am basically looking for a combination that:

 

1) Can reasonably control the battlefield.

2) Can duo AVs with a damage dealer (preferably before level 50)

3) Has sufficient damage to take things out at a pace that isnt grueling

4) Doesnt have too many issues with endurance. (I hate not having endurance)

5) Is not difficult to play, but is also not boring.  (So.. for example.. bots/ff strikes me as very boring..with alot of sitting and watching your pets.  While ninjas/kin seems way too chaotic and fast paced, and not at all reliable) Somewhere in the middle of those. 

 

I have been looking at Beasts/Nature, and Demons/?.  I would love to have a storm controller but the endurance issues worry me a bit, also storm seems to underperform in boss fights.  If there is a storm combo that doesnt have those issues though, im all ears.

 

Any help and information is greatly appreciated.  I am scouring the forums here for what info I can find as well.  Thank you for reading! I hope yall can help me out.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Damoklese

[Force Redux]

Demon/Dark will do everything you want to do. And goes well with any duoing partner.

 

I'm not a fan of Storm, but there are folks here who report great success with Demon/Storm as well. More damage than with Dark, but Dark is a bit safer and more controllery.

 

Dark is literally the Swiss knife of secondaries, with tools for many situations. Many of it's best powers come early (unlike Storm):

 

Twilight Grasp

Howling Twilight

Tar Patch

Darkest Night

Shadowfall...

 

Dark Servant arrives at 38, but it's worth the wait, he's an invaluable ally.

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Force Redux

[Seigmoraig]

Demons and Thugs are the top of the list in terms of good primaries for all the extra tricks they bring (Buffs, Control, AoE), they both have an extra skill which takes all the pet buff auras without having to gimp your main dudes with them and they can fit in a ton of procs.
For Secondaries Dark, Time, Kin, Nature and Electric are all great choices that will keep you busy. Kin and Electric are more about buffing, Kin having the biggest damage buff with Fulcrum Shift (at level 38 though) and Electric having 2 heals a smaller damage buff that comes much earlier and full status protection. Time and Nature have a mix of buffs, debuffs and control and Dark is primarily about debuffing.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Storm on a Mastermind, I find it to be a much better fit on a Controller where you can lock down a killzone for your tornadoes and lightning clouds, when the mobs start running around Storm loses a lot of what it's good at

Edited June 15, 2020 by Seigmoraig

[Nyghtmaire]

44 minutes ago, Seigmoraig said:

I'm not a huge fan of Storm on a Mastermind, I find it to be a much better fit on a Controller where you can lock down a killzone for your tornadoes and lightning clouds, when the mobs start running around Storm loses a lot of what it's good at

Mu Mastery AOE immobilize allows this, but with the drawback that you will be waiting until your 40s for it all to come together. 
 

@Damoklese, wholly agree with the above posts, especially with @Force Redux’s /dark recommendation. On these boards, another recommendation that often comes up is demons/thermal with reports of its ability to solo +4/8 against a wide variety of enemies and a toolkit to neuter AVs. Search for posts by @Dixa.

 

What will you be teaming with? My son and I team with controllers (Earth/thermal and illusion/TA) at a *very* speedy pace. 

[Damoklese]

Hmmm... ok that is some good information.  So im leaning towards Demons/Dark.  Only reservation I have is that I already have a /dark controller that I plan on leveling, and I while that isnt a deal breaker but ideally id like to play a different combo.  I think ill make one and try him out for a while to see what I think. 

 

[Dixa]

demons/thermal or demons/ea if you want to be able to tackle just about everything the game can throw at you. 

 

thermal has an early lead over ea in survivability because it won't make everything run and the resist shields are quite noticeable at low levels. ea will take over once you get the absorb and the patron root, however this does mean you MUST take a patron pool and not one of the blue side pools. This is because end drains act like a terror effect on mobs and they will run.

 

offensively thermal has more to offer. ea should in theory be the most comfortable to play if you can keep everyone in your faraday cage as knockbacks are a real bloody issue, but keeping your large pets all in that cage while also beating on your target not always so easy. 

 

the absorb in EA is the best in the game with a nearly non existent cooldown once you start building out io sets. this combined with it's heal - in my opinion - actually makes it a superior support set to nature. 

[Force Redux]

If you want to avoid /Dark again, I'm gonna second Dixa's recommendation of Thermal. Solid set. Very thematic.

[DocMidknight]

  Demons/cold is another good combo. I'm slowly leveling up demon MM combos with demon/dark, demon/storm and a demon/cold at 50 found that one pretty good even without a heal. Has me working a demo/thermal and a demon/nature currently up which are both fun but still young and in their baby years.

 

[Coyote]

Demons are a good set in general, and will do great with:
Thermal and Cold (both are thematic)
Time and Pain (Time is stronger)
Dark and Storm (both are more finicky to play effectively)

[Seigmoraig]

14 hours ago, Dixa said:

but keeping your large pets all in that cage while also beating on your target not always so easy. 

It's actually not that bad since the cooldown on the cage is so low you can easily reposition it on the fly

[Force Redux]

I'll add that Electrical Affinity is a very busy/clicky set and IMO I think it works best on masterminds, since their primary needs very little attention overall, compared to say a Blast or Control set.

[Seigmoraig]

15 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

I'll add that Electrical Affinity is a very busy/clicky set and IMO I think it works best on masterminds, since their primary needs very little attention overall, compared to say a Blast or Control set.

Agreed, I leveled a Dark/EA Corruptor and a Thugs/EA MM and I enjoyed it a lot more on the MM

[Dr Causality]

Some good MM suggestions so far.      But the pairing with your duo partner will matter about as much as the pairing between your MM primary/2ndary.    

 

Demons/Cold would be extremely powerful duo-ed with a TW/Bio Armor melee character.   Both also solo well and are good enough individually to be borderline broken already on 50+ fully IO'd builds, but together would be an almost unfair force multiplier.  

 

Starting at low through mid levels /Cold fills in most of /Bio Armor's weaknesses.    The duo would first come online at lvl 16 where Bio (scrapper/brute) gets Ablative carapace and /Cold could fill in Def from the Ice Shields, and Resistance to Elements, plus the Massive HP buff from Frostwork enhancing Bio's already decent Regen.    Then at higher levels the Cold debuffs combined with TW's extreme aoe & single target dmg will make short work of AVs.  Demons have their own team aoe heal, an aoe +Res shield, and are another source of -Res debuff, so are themselves another force multiplier further increasing the potency of the duo.      

 

TW/Bio scappers are best dmg wise. In general TW/Bio scrapper is accepted to be better, but Brute or Tanker might make a better duo with Demon/Cold.   A brute or Tanker would be signficantly sturdier with more HP (higher HP Regen/s) and a higher 90% Res cap.  But perhaps most importantly would have a bigger aoe taunt with a -Range component to help keep aggro off your MM and pets, making for an overall sturdier duo.  For leveling the Tanker would defensively come online the earliest because they get earlier access to the Bio Armor powers (most notably being DNA Siphon at 18 instead of 28...and Ablative Carapace at lvl 8 instead of 16).   /Cold already has a ton of -Dmg debuff, but another survivability advantage to Brutes/Tanks is access to Darkest Night from the Patron Pools for stacking another -21% Dmg, and some -Tohit.  All told the Duo should neuter most AV's.

 

The biggest challenge the duo will have while leveling will be endurance on the TW/Bio character since TW is very End hungry.   This will get better once they get DNA Siphon (Scrapper/Brute lvl 28, Tanker lvl 18) but for leveling builds, the MM may want to try picking up Experimental Injection and/or Victory Rush from the Pools.  Since Cold doesn't have a heal you may also want to pickup Aid Other for the lower levels to help the Bio Armor character until they get DNA Siphon and later Parasitic Aura.  You'll also both want to take Maneuvers to stack for each other and the Demon pets.      Both characters will benefit a great deal from +Rech, so will need Hasten and one of you will likely want to pickup up Ageless when you unlock Incarnates.  Ageless Radial would give resistance to Defense Debuffs that Bio and Cold lack, so would be ideal if you can do without the +Recovery of Core...

 

The only drawback would be if you two don't want to play a more traditional team style, with a lead aggro holding melee character and a support (buff, debuff, add damage character...)   Beyond that it they would be an absolutely OP duo.

 

 

*Edit*   If you decide to go with this duo reply back for some tricky build ideas to help out while leveling...

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Dr Causality

[killigraphy]

Its been established, Demons wins over everything....

 

Secondary wise, Thermal has two debuffs, shields, a rez, and two heals. I really want to say any other secondary, from Rad, to Dark, but Thermal is so utilitarian that I would be stupid to think to use anything else...but specifically to your case, yeah, thermal.

[Dr Causality]

5 hours ago, killigraphy said:

Its been established, Demons wins over everything....

 

Secondary wise, Thermal has two debuffs, shields, a rez, and two heals. I really want to say any other secondary, from Rad, to Dark, but Thermal is so utilitarian that I would be stupid to think to use anything else...but specifically to your case, yeah, thermal.

It's not so simply or clearcut.  The synergy of pairings changes everything and OP is looking to create a Duo with another character.    It's not really possible to say what's best without knowing or considering the Duo character's powers.  

 

For instance:

 

There's an incredible amount of Synergy between the Duo of /Cold and /Bio Armor.     The +Def from /Cold means the /Bio will be able to reach softcap Def during leveling.   Whereas on the /Thermal Duo the /Bio character will have to reach softcap Def on their own, so it will not be possible until much much later when they have enough power slots for a bunch of set bonuses and optimally can slot lvl 50 IO's.    Similarly the /Thermal's Demon pets will have no chance of reaching softcap Def, whereas at lvl 50 the /Cold MM's Demon pets will be able to reach both softcap def AND very high Resistances with lvl 50 Pet IO's and 5% from Barrier...

 

/Thermal's two heals are very nice to have especially at lower levels, and /Cold gets none.   /Thermal has no way to fill in the  +Def /Cold gets, but /Cold can fill in a single target heal with 'Aid Other'.  This isn't so helpful for your 6 pets, but works well for your single Duo teammate.   Further by the time they get DNA Siphon, a well built /Bio doesn't need much in the way of external healing.  

 

A much more synergistic Duo with /Thermal would be a /Shield Def Armor character.    With no team +Def coming from /Thermal the Duo character will need reach soft cap defensive on their own, which will be much easier for /Shield Def, and possible to do far before /Bio could on it's own.    Shield Def also doesn't have /Bio's Heal and level of Regen, so will benefit much more from /Thermal's two heals.  And finally /Shield Def has 'Grant Cover' for a 15' radius team +Def buff, helping to fill in for /Thermal's lack of team Def buffs.

 

But it's generally accepted that TW/Bio scrappers outperforms /Shield Def characters (/Shield being ahead in burst damage, but /Bio being ahead in overall survivability and sustained DPS...). Meaning that even if we accept that /Thermal is the best MM 2ndary (this is not my opinion), choosing /Thermal still leads to a compromise on the optimal Duo character pairing...

 

It's all about the context:

• Demons are great and I think best overall, but Thugs are sometimes easier to build for or even outperform Demons in certain cases depending on 2ndary pairing and desired power choices.
• Thermal is a solid set, but there are reasons all the speed runners use /Cold instead. 
• In this specific case:
  • Getting no +Def team buff from /Thermal limits your optimal build and Duo choices.  
  • Sets that mix both +Def and +Res, like /Cold, /Dark, /Storm will be more versatile to build or Duo with and will outperform /Thermal in cases where the additional +Def makes it possible to reach softcap Def for either pets or your Duo teammate...

 

That said a Duo with /Thermal MM + /Shield Armor melee character will do exceptionally well.    And it might be a lot of fun to try pairing with the Savage/SD Stalker that Frosticus talks about.  

 

 

 

[killigraphy]

Thermal.,,,nuff said.

[Coyote]

EA with Demons... almost enough said 😉

[Force Redux]

Demons/Dark master race checking in 😀😀

[TheSpiritFox]

People do not sing the praises of demons nature enough. It is tankier than any other MM save probably /EA. It brings better overall buffs and debuffs to the table than /ea does.  Nature is a much better overall set than EA for most conent. 

 

The other recommendation is thugs/time, which gets my vote for the strongest overall mastermind in any content. Pets can hit beyond softcap easily beyond incarnate softcap with power boost. Has a -tohit aura to add insult to serious inaccuracy, has a bunch of slows which keep stuff nearby, is one of the best secondaries for damage procs, and by default gives you some extra recharge to make things just that much more ridiculous. My thugs/time recharges burnout in like 6-7 minutes and gang war's recharge is 30 second longer than it's duration I think meaning that I can basically run around with 16 pets close to permanently and hit 26 if and when shit hits the fan. Throw on destiny barrier and support core hybrid and even your gang war is tanky, throw an opposing force knockdown proc in gang war and every attack every single one of them does has a 20% chance to knock down whatever it aims at. It's fucking hilarious and chaotic and an EXCELLENT duo choice with literally any class or spec thanks to the +def, +tohit, and +recharge that time puts out, plus a nice damage buff on single targets that lasts a long while and you can get the recharge low enough to keep up on multiple pets/allies. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by TheSpiritFox

[Dr Causality]

10 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

People do not sing the praises of demons nature enough. It is tankier than any other MM save probably /EA. It brings better overall buffs and debuffs to the table than /ea does.  Nature is a much better overall set than EA for most conent.

 

I've been meaning to ask in Bugs if this is working as intended or a bug.   But one interesting thing I found was /EA's +Absorb is not impacted by the caster's HP, whereas /Nature's is.    The means HP buffs like accolades, set bonuses and even the massive HoarFrost Epic all boost /Nature's already bigger Absorb to even greater amounts.     I dislike game mechanics that work inconsistently like that and it broke my heart for a Chill Mastery /EA build I'd worked out to leverage HoarFrost's HP boost on the assumption that Absorb functioned the same across sets.    So I'm hoping it's a bug.     But on the other-hand, if it's not a bug then it's at least some compensation for /Nature's much longer Absorb power cooldown...

 

Whether bug or not, as the game currently works /Nature can reach a much much higher single Absorb shield amount than /EA,  they just can't do it very often...(and from testing @SmalltalkJavadid previously there does appear to be an Absorb cap...)

[Dixa]

On 6/16/2020 at 7:12 AM, DocMidknight said:

  Demons/cold is another good combo. I'm slowly leveling up demon MM combos with demon/dark, demon/storm and a demon/cold at 50 found that one pretty good even without a heal. Has me working a demo/thermal and a demon/nature currently up which are both fun but still young and in their baby years.

 

cold is fine as is any defense based sets, but ea and thermal will have little to no issue with enemy group that shred defense based secondaries. 

 

if you want to have no holes defensively so you run into fewer 'bullshit' moments that cost you more or all of your pets in a few seconds - it's thermal or ea. 

[Dixa]

3 hours ago, Dr Causality said:

 

I've been meaning to ask in Bugs if this is working as intended or a bug.   But one interesting thing I found was /EA's +Absorb is not impacted by the caster's HP, whereas /Nature's is.    The means HP buffs like accolades, set bonuses and even the massive HoarFrost Epic all boost /Nature's already bigger Absorb to even greater amounts.     I dislike game mechanics that work inconsistently like that and it broke my heart for a Chill Mastery /EA build I'd worked out to leverage HoarFrost's HP boost on the assumption that Absorb functioned the same across sets.    So I'm hoping it's a bug.     But on the other-hand, if it's not a bug then it's at least some compensation for /Nature's much longer Absorb power cooldown...

 

Whether bug or not, as the game currently works /Nature can reach a much much higher single Absorb shield amount than /EA,  they just can't do it very often...(and from testing @SmalltalkJavadid previously there does appear to be an Absorb cap...)

with the prevalance of knockbacks end game, faraday cage, the nearly non-existent cooldown on ea's absorb, how no matter where you are facing you hit all of your pets with your heal do put EA above nature for general gameplay. 

 

i'd rather have a nearly always on absorb (which i target on my t1's so they get the largest possible shield) than one big shield every now and then. 

[TheSpiritFox]

12 hours ago, Dixa said:

with the prevalance of knockbacks end game, faraday cage, the nearly non-existent cooldown on ea's absorb, how no matter where you are facing you hit all of your pets with your heal do put EA above nature for general gameplay. 

 

i'd rather have a nearly always on absorb (which i target on my t1's so they get the largest possible shield) than one big shield every now and then. 

I gotta be honest, while EA may edge nature out on pure math grounds with absorb, natures absorb shield very often results in little to no health damage before the next application barring the highest end content, and the larger absorb shield gives your minions time to heal health damage under the absorb if they have taken damage. It also applies a heal over time and stacks of bloom which enhance other nature heals applied to the target. It's not JUST absorb, it also heals and enhances future heals on the target, which makes the power have multiple functions and EA's absorb is a one trick pony, only additionally granting stacks of static to increase the number of allies that it chains to, not increasing it's effectiveness on any one thing it hits. 

Then going further, EA only offers resistance and absorb to prevent damage, while nature has a toggle aura which does -tohit AND -damage and -damage is not resistable, so anything that is debuffed is essentially stacking both defense and resistance on top of your defense and resistance. My demons with the pet defense auras and maneuvers hit like 14% defense, With the -17% tohit applied by nature that's effectively 30% defense on top of high resistances plus the -damage. Before heals, which nature clearly does wayyyyyyyy better than EA could dream of doing. 

 

While EA is absolutely solid as shit, if you take everything that each set has to offer (/nature also does -damage to single targets with corrosive spores, hell) nature absolutely does not lose in tankiness to EA and honestly probably outstrips it by a solid margin.

 

EA has 4 powers that affect pet survivability directly by somehow mitigating incoming damage

 

- A single target damage debuff for enemies

- A chain heal that just heals your pets

- A chain absorb that just puts a small absorb shield on your pets

- A location based aoe resistance and mez protection

 

I don't count endurance drain because EA doesn't drain endurance from foes effectively enough to be like considered endurance drain crowd control, you can't walk into a crowd and sap them all and laugh at their inability to attack. 

 

Nature has 7, 8 if you count the T9 because it adds 5 stacks of bloom to enhance future heals. 

 

- A single target debuff that lowers enemy damage

- An aoe heal cone heal

- An aoe buff that increases resistance, regeneration, and adds a heal enhancement

- A targeted aoe debuff which reduces both enemy accuracy and damage

- A location based heal patch

- An absorb shield that also adds a solid heal over time on application and a heal enhancement for future heals

- An AOE hold power which is easily enhanceable to the point it stacks on itself and holds minions and lts permanently

- A T9 which in addition to being one of the best team buffs in the game adds 5 bloom for even more heal enhancement

 

The entire point of wild bastion is that the big absorb shield doesn't HAVE to be up constantly. It's more of an "oh shit" button than it is something you depend on to keep your pets alive. It doesn't have to be on a short cooldown because in general /nature can straight up outheal incoming damage alot of the time without even using your absorb shield, or your toggle debuff, or your single target damage/resistance debuff, or your hold power. EA cannot do that. 

 

Electric Affinity is a solidly balanced buff/debuff/healing hybrid set that is awesome for team content and solidly good for mastermind pets as a secondary. 

 

Nature Affinity is an overpowered healing set which was also given extremely synergistic buffs and debuffs which is awesome for team content and better for mastermind pets as a secondary. Mathematically speaking, nature is just far tankier than EA is. It brings too much to the table besides absorb and too many of it's powers do more than one thing well. 

[seresibyl3]

I don't like EA on MM myself - cuz you can't really do anything except spam heal/absorb. 😛

 

Quote

only additionally granting stacks of static to increase the number of allies that it chains to, not increasing it's effectiveness on any one thing it hits. 

Doesn't static increase the effectiveness of the additional targets hit? Maybe I'm imagining things.

[Hopestar]

2 minutes ago, seresibyl3 said:

I don't like EA on MM myself - cuz you can't really do anything except spam heal/absorb. 😛

 

Doesn't static increase the effectiveness of the additional targets hit? Maybe I'm imagining things.

No but you can heal, absorb, and refresh endurance for an entire League with it and the maximum it lowers is 5 targets, any more targets is still the same number as if healing/absorb/+end'ing 5.
 

2 hours ago, TheSpiritFox said:

- A single target damage debuff for enemies

- A chain heal that just heals your pets

- A chain absorb that just puts a small absorb shield on your pets

- A location based aoe resistance and mez protection

 

I don't count endurance drain because EA doesn't drain endurance from foes effectively enough to be like considered endurance drain crowd control, you can't walk into a crowd and sap them all and laugh at their inability to attack.

While Nature can definitely outheal and outbuff EA, EA restores way more endurance and gives 125% recharge, debuffs more, gives protections, a 20' AoE revive for your silly blappers, and can keep a similar (40% - 30% approximately depending on your spot in the chain, Nature is 45% with 5 stacks) absorb shield at all times and quickly refreshable resulting in exponentially more damage absorbable, effectively never needing to heal. The biggest downside is that the absorb is much later in levels than Nature. Nature is not "far tankier" than EA, it can just heal more, EA has higher, quickly refreshable Absorb and it's +Res is easier to keep on your team without depending on them to group up as they can see if they're shielded or not.

Some issues with those listed: It also has an AoE damage debuff that also drains a chunk of endurance. The chain heal doesn't only heal your pets, btw, it chains through whatever you target first (pets or players), then goes to everything else. The absorb shield is not small, but it is dependent on the target's maximum health, like all absorbs, so tankier henchmen will benefit from it more (hello Bots).

2 casts of Discharge can sap 100% of end from a group if enhanced.

Both are excellent sets that are very survivable with pretty much the same ability to keep your team alive. Nature does excel at low level exemp'ing in comparison with it's absorb being 15 levels sooner though it can buff team damage sooner. (Something I think could use swapping personally.)

 

I'm really not sure why they gave a ST +Special to allies only, putting support in your support while you support your supports.