A question for those who know their tanks.

[Dafydd Hywel]

I was doing some general reading on forums last night for fun. I dont Tank myself but, found myself readingbstuff in that section and, came across the enormous outporing of love for Energy Melee. 😂😂😂.

 

Man that set has had it BAD! In fact It made me wonder.....

 

Is it even "possible" to be a decent Tank with EM now or do we trully have a "dead" power?

 

 

[Sovera]

You fool! You've just invoked @Camel! He is going to wax poetic again! Quick, run, I'll hold him off!!

[Fordson]

I’d like to know more on this from someone who has greater PLAYING knowledge from this Tank secondary. I have a Dark/MA tank that I’ve spent a lot of infamy and time on, but I’m just finding that I really don’t like /MA. It just doesn’t seem like it’s doing much Dmg. I decided to shelf her for a bit and PL a Dark/EM Tank. Currently, she’s 38. Looking at numbers on Mid’s (I do realize that they’re not perfectly proportional to in game, but “close”) /EM doesn’t have the +Def from the attacks but it does have MASSIVE dmg. Who needs to debuff something that’s dead within a hit or three?  I just remember my old time stalker having EM and the joy it brought me. I’m extremely interested in what people whom took the time to play a toon IO’d out with EM does on TF/Lvl 50 +4/8 stuff). I guess my next option would be Dark/Rad but I’m really hoping for a positive answer on EM. 

[marcussmythe]

Beware of using Mids - in this case, it is overreporting the damage EM Deals by a -lot-.   Seriously.  I think its counting the self-damage if Energy Transfer as outgoing base damage. 
 

For AOE, EM is (I believe) the worst.  For single target, its near the bottom.  
 

Before all hope is abandoned:

1.)  Build Tuning can take an underperforming set into ‘better than the vaaast majority even on the good sets’.  Given budget and time and planning.  I have an Invuln/EM Tank that hunts GMs, +4 AVs, and the like - though the build sacrifices are heavy and I dont use that build for general play, it can be done.  Ive a different build that has okay AOE off of EPP powers and decent single target burst for bosses - I use it for my 4/8 missions.  And this is invuln, no offense bonuses.

 

2.)  The dev team has been wanting to look at Energy Melee since last summer.  I recall reading that it was lined up for the next update.  We dont know when that will be or what it will be, but its something.

So, yes, Energy Melee is objectively terrible - but player and build tuning matter more than the core bad numbers, and we may see better days at some point.  Do what you find fun - but if your Dark/EM, youll be unique, and that has value to some of us.

[drbuzzard]

If you think MA is bad, EM will be worse. While it does appear that the devs will be buffing the set, we have no idea when that will occur. Hence you will be stuck with an underperforming tank for the interim.

 

The important thing to realize when you look at EM is not how high the damage is on any given attack, it is how much damage it does in a given amount of time. Once upon a time Em was king of the single target hill because energy transfer was fast. Then it got nerfed into a slow animation, and this honestly broke the set.

[Dafydd Hywel]

The sense I got was that, EM would need so many things from the PowerBooks and ancilluaries to help it hat it would barely still be EM at all.

[drbuzzard]

15 minutes ago, Dafydd Hywel said:

The sense I got was that, EM would need so many things from the PowerBooks and ancilluaries to help it hat it would barely still be EM at all.

I think if the goal was to make it a well rounded set comparable to other melee sets, then yes. It would need a major re-tooling. However if they just wanted to put it back to where it was, which was king of a single target, but an AOE joke, then the tinkering would be minor. Heck, just putting energy transfer back on the original animation would likely make it a single target contender (not sure of the numbers against current sets, so I don't know that it would be king). If you also reduced the total focus animation, I bet it would clearly be king.

 

Most people who ask for changes to EM want it back as it was, a mean single target set which was AOE LOL.

Edited July 15, 2020 by drbuzzard

[Supreme Ballista]

Try a Rad/Em tank with procs in the Rad AOE’s.

 

Very good ST and AoE damage. 
 

Jump into mob with WH >Ground Zero>Radiation Therapy> back to WH. 
 

I think my build has WH on a 7-8sec recharge. 
 

I can post my build if any one is interested.

 

thanks

SB

[marcussmythe]

I can attest to the strength of the combo to which Ballista attests - but that strength lies mainly in Rad Armor (which is ludicrously good). Rad’s AOE and self heal patch holes in EM, and having recharge and damage buffs in set are good for EM.

[Camel]

6 hours ago, Sovera said:

You fool! You've just invoked @Camel! He is going to wax poetic again! Quick, run, I'll hold him off!!

I have awakened! 😆

[Camel]

7 hours ago, Dafydd Hywel said:

I was doing some general reading on forums last night for fun. I dont Tank myself but, found myself readingbstuff in that section and, came across the enormous outporing of love for Energy Melee. 😂😂😂.

 

Man that set has had it BAD! In fact It made me wonder.....

 

Is it even "possible" to be a decent Tank with EM now or do we trully have a "dead" power?

 

 

1. Energy Melee is love. Energy Melee is life. Energy Melee is mediocre.

2. Keep wondering. 

3. Yes.

It's honestly not a great set when you consider all the other options. The only thing it has going for it is the insane amount of burst damage you can dish out, which a few other sets sets can also do. That being said, I wouldn't knock it entirely. My experience on my Fire/EM Tank was great, @Sovera even linked my "guide" in their comment. Even with EM as my secondary I felt like I was obliterating all the TF Commander TFs. It was a blast. I've mentioned it before, but pairing EM with any primary that can boost damage and shore up your lack of AoE is a great option. Bio, Shield and Fire would be my top 3 picks for a primary with Dark, Radiation and Ice being less appealing but still a good pairing.

[Sovera]

3 minutes ago, Camel said:

1. Energy Melee is love. Energy Melee is life. Energy Melee is mediocre.

2. Keep wondering. 

3. Yes.

It's honestly not a great set when you consider all the other options. The only thing it has going for it is the insane amount of burst damage you can dish out, which a few other sets sets can also do. That being said, I wouldn't knock it entirely. My experience on my Fire/EM Tank was great, @Sovera even linked my "guide" in their comment. Even with EM as my secondary I felt like I was obliterating all the TF Commander TFs. It was a blast. I've mentioned it before, but pairing EM with any primary that can boost damage and shore up your lack of AoE is a great option. Bio, Shield and Fire would be my top 3 picks for a primary with Dark, Radiation and Ice being less appealing but still a good pairing.

To be honest I've seen Camel play and I read what he does with the build, and it does make me jealous. Dem huge orange numbers pushed by Fire Armor's Fiery Embrace are droolworthy.

[Camel]

6 hours ago, Fordson said:

I’d like to know more on this from someone who has greater PLAYING knowledge from this Tank secondary. I have a Dark/MA tank that I’ve spent a lot of infamy and time on, but I’m just finding that I really don’t like /MA. It just doesn’t seem like it’s doing much Dmg. I decided to shelf her for a bit and PL a Dark/EM Tank. Currently, she’s 38. Looking at numbers on Mid’s (I do realize that they’re not perfectly proportional to in game, but “close”) /EM doesn’t have the +Def from the attacks but it does have MASSIVE dmg. Who needs to debuff something that’s dead within a hit or three?  I just remember my old time stalker having EM and the joy it brought me. I’m extremely interested in what people whom took the time to play a toon IO’d out with EM does on TF/Lvl 50 +4/8 stuff). I guess my next option would be Dark/Rad but I’m really hoping for a positive answer on EM. 

So I have a EM/Dark Brute that was meh, feeling. Still fun, but not my cup of tea. However, my Fire/EM Tank... I fell in love with it. Most people stay away from EM, the majority of players think it is trash. And they aren't "totally" wrong. EM just requires a different playstyle, you have to be very aggressive with how quickly you engage mobs and which mob you are engaging. EM is a boss killer, and you should always have a boss targeted so you don't whiff with Energy Transfer and Total Focus. I personally could care less when I do whiff, others go insane.

Dark/EM would be a good pairing defensively, you could stack so much stun, it would be hilarious. I prefer to pair EM with more offensive primaries so I can capitalize on increasing the burst damage from ET and TF. My Fire/EM Tank can 2 shot practically any boss at even level, and can even 2 shot some bosses all the way to +2. This is with Fiery Embrace though, which is stupid good for EM. Sometimes the extra fire damage that ET and TF get is over 300. One tip I might add is making room for the Guassian's build up proc in your own Build Up power, it helps a lot with getting those high burst numbers.

Long story short.. If you build it right and play it right.. You'd probably enjoy it. Is it top tier? Nah. But it's one of my favorite melee sets of all time. Most of my enjoyment comes from slapping mobs with ET and TF, it's just so satisfying. One of my favorite things to do is to do a little crow hop right before I activate TF, that way I can be jumping in mid-air, to another mob while Total Focus animates... It looks so cool lol and it can set you right in the heart of the next mob you need to aggro. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Supreme Ballista said:

Try a Rad/Em tank with procs in the Rad AOE’s.

 

Very good ST and AoE damage. 
 

Jump into mob with WH >Ground Zero>Radiation Therapy> back to WH. 
 

I think my build has WH on a 7-8sec recharge. 
 

I can post my build if any one is interested.

 

thanks

SB

I've got a rad/em tank. I've also got a bio/em tank. Are they gonna win any pylon damage awards? Nahh, hell no.

 

But EM still has some of the best animations and sound effects in the game.

 

Sometimes performance doesn't matter nearly as much as fun.

 

Edit: Oh.. but wait, there's more. I just built another em/fire brute to take my main villain back to his original powerset combo instead of being a dm/inv brute.

He's gonna suck so bad!

Edited July 15, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Dafydd Hywel]

Thanks folks.

I might just give this a try, even if it's just for the challenge of it.

[marcussmythe]

26 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I've got a rad/em tank. I've also got a bio/em tank. Are they gonna win any pylon damage awards? Nahh, hell no.

 

But EM still has some of the best animations and sound effects in the game.

 

Sometimes performance doesn't matter nearly as much as fun.

 

Edit: Oh.. but wait, there's more. I just built another em/fire brute to take my main villain back to his original powerset combo instead of being a dm/inv brute.

He's gonna suck so bad!

Ive got an Invuln/EM, and I am quite fond of her.  With that said, I am contempalating Bio/EM or Rad/EM - Ive never Radded at high level, and my last Bio was a Scrapper.

Do you have any recommendations as between the two, on that combination?

[Bill Z Bubba]

39 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

Ive got an Invuln/EM, and I am quite fond of her.  With that said, I am contempalating Bio/EM or Rad/EM - Ive never Radded at high level, and my last Bio was a Scrapper.

Do you have any recommendations as between the two, on that combination?

I enjoy them both for different reasons but I'd lean toward rad for all the extra AoE.

[Sir Myshkin]

Walks in, find a piece of drift wood on the endless beach that is Energy Melee hate, begins drawing a very deep line in the sand.

 

Proceeds to confidently walk over the line.

 

Energy Melee was fine, haters gonna hate.

 

Walks back over the line.

 

But you know, I wouldn't be opposed to a buff or three. 😇

[nihilii]

12 hours ago, Fordson said:

I just remember my old time stalker having EM and the joy it brought me. I’m extremely interested in what people whom took the time to play a toon IO’d out with EM does on TF/Lvl 50 +4/8 stuff). I guess my next option would be Dark/Rad but I’m really hoping for a positive answer on EM. 

I am rather happy with my DA/EM, with the caveat it is objectively inferior to my DA/Rad on just about every account.

DA/EM can still:

- solo every faction at +4/x8 without much trouble (occasional insps against defense debuff heavy enemies)

- push ~240 DPS before extreme shenanigans like skipping half of the cool stuff in favor of Gloom and Cross Punch

- deal palatable AoE damage, thank you Tanker buff. Even Whirling Hands becomes alright with a 12 feet radius

- kill itself with ET

- feel powerful as hell despite the numbers, as you wham things with what feels like one shot kills left and right

The power creep has been enough the EM of today, once with incarnates and IOs, can feel as strong as golden days EM. The state of EM is only hard to stomach if you compare it to current balance.

[Camel]

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I enjoy them both for different reasons but I'd lean toward rad for all the extra AoE.

Go Rad for AoE, or go Bio for better burst damage. Bio add extra toxic damage to your attacks, as you know. But it’s based off of the initial base damage of your attacks. Since EM has both Energy Transfer and Total Focus, you’ll really enjoy the bonus toxic damage.

[Bill Z Bubba]

44 minutes ago, nihilii said:

- kill itself with ET

Is EM 100% unique amongst all power sets for this? Or can empaths also kill themselves with Absorb Pain?

[drbuzzard]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Is EM 100% unique amongst all power sets for this? Or can empaths also kill themselves with Absorb Pain?

Do you remember back in the day when an odd interaction of gauntlet made tanker single target attacks into effectively AOEs if you stacked the bodies close enough? Now ET was damned deadly in those days. 

[Sir Myshkin]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Or can empaths also kill themselves with Absorb Pain?

Yes, and Pain Domination has a similar ability with... hold on, one sec. Share Pain (which also gives a weird +Dam to the caster).

 

I was testing the waters with a Ill/Pain concept (purpose driven for Phantom Army costume cloning). Historically I dislike being a "healer" per-say and the build was more bent around "benefit me" in its final run, but DFB's and all, you know? 

 

tl;dr Yes, I killed myself with Share Pain without considering the impact on my health at the time.

 

Also, it was freaking hilarious. 🤣

Edited July 16, 2020 by Sir Myshkin

[Bill Z Bubba]

Speaking of EM... is ET/Gloom/TF/Gloom still the best possible ST attack chain for a brute? Or a tank, apparently.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[tidge]

I love Energy Melee (as a single-target attack set), but late tinkering during Live completely diminished it, and the original devs never looked back. To be fair: at launch the way stunned mobs would zip around the world/maps was a defect of the set, but that was eventually fixed (pre-nerf).

 

I have a memory (that others dispute, fair enough) that it was because of the large single-target damage plus the Stun component in (original) PvP that led to the nerf of Energy Melee.

 

Like many others, I only want EM to return to the top spot of single-target damage. The single AoE is fine, and I absolutely don't want or need combo effects added to it. I enjoy the Stun component for sentimental reasons, but I'd sacrifice it if necessary "for balance".