Change the Self-Rez powers in powersets to Auto cheat deaths.

[Neogumbercules]

Back on my "Diablo 3 does it like this" train of thought. This proposed change would only effect the Self-Rez powers that you get from powersets, not temp powers. 

 

Each class in Diablo 3 has an ability that basically goes like this:

 

"When you receive fatal damage you instead don't die but do something that gives you a chance to get the hell out of dodge. This effect can only proc once every 90 seconds."

 

So relating it to City of Heroes, here's two examples:

 

Soul Transfer: When you are reduced to 0 HP instead of being defeated, tendrils from the netherworld erupt from your body and drain a small amount of health and endurance from nearby foes. Weaker enemies will be stunned by this effect and you remain immune from all damage for 5 seconds. This power is always on, costs no endurance, and can only occur once every 5 minutes. 

 

Rise of the Pheonix: When you are reduced to 0 HP instead of being defeated, you summon the power of the Phoenix, blasting all foes around you with high fire damage and knocking them back. You regain half of your HP and endurance and are immune to damage for 5 seconds afterwards. This power is always on, costs no endurance, and can only occur once every 5 minutes. 

 

Self-Rezzes are among the most useless powers in the game in primary and secondary powersets. Between wakies, the ability to combine them to make a wakie, and the fact that Self-Rez temp powers basically grow on trees or can just be grabbed from P2W, there's very little incentive to take a Self-Rez. You also have teammates who can rez, or give you wakies, or combine their inspirations to make wakies. Travel powers come early and anyone can grab them, or grab one from F2P, so even if you do have to go to the hospital, there's no reason why it should take more than 2 minutes to get back to the mission. I cannot remember an occurance where someone got KO'd and it was a problem. Even debt is borderline meaningless. 

 

This change wouldn't suddenly make Self-Rez powers a must have power pick but it would at least make them mechanically interesting and unique. Having a power that actually protects you from dying in the first place and gives you a second wind is vastly more useful than a power that just saves you from having to make a wakie. 

[chi1701]

Though an interesting idea, self resurrecting as a power you press rather than auto gives the player the choice of getting back into a fight, or waiting for mobs to retreat or your team teleporting you from danger, so unfortunately, im against making this an auto activation abilty.

[Neogumbercules]

22 minutes ago, chi1701 said:

Though an interesting idea, self resurrecting as a power you press rather than auto gives the player the choice of getting back into a fight, or waiting for mobs to retreat or your team teleporting you from danger, so unfortunately, im against making this an auto activation abilty.

You still get that option only after the cheat death procs, giving you a boost and weakening the goes momentarily which allows you to decide if you want to stick it out and turn the tide, or run away to regroup. All the same options are there you just get more interaction out of it. 

 

It also helps Self-Rezzes compare better against T9 God powers, which essentially do the same thing (turn a losing situation into a winning one). 

[MTeague]

I oppose this change. 

 

"Moment of Glory" is the "almost died but drew upon focused reserves to survive" power.

"Revive" is the, "I was killed.... only I don't stay down" power.

And certainly "Rise of the Phoenix" has the YOU DIED but the Phoenix is always reborn angle going on.

 

Thematically I vastly prefer the existing mechanic over a cheat death.

Functionally, I suspect Self-Rez powers are taken far more often than T9's that include a crash like Elude or Unstoppable. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by MTeague
grammar

[Neogumbercules]

I would love to pull that data. What percent of DA characters take Soul Transfer VS what percentage of X powerset take their God mode. 

[Outrider_01]

Faceplant

Detoggled

Auto ressurect kicks in

Detoggled

Faceplant

Rinse repeat hoping it doesn't proc again

[Razor Cure]

49 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Faceplant

Detoggled

Auto ressurect kicks in

Detoggled

Faceplant

Rinse repeat hoping it doesn't proc again

Why would the 'cheat death' rez detoggle you? If you went to 0 hp, auto rez kicked in with the heal/invul period and KEPT toggles on..wow, that is SO far and away better than what we have now. Even just turning travel powers back on after a self rez takes up valuable time when you could be running away or cheming some lucks.

 

The cheat death options sound like a win too me. I'd just (maybe) have the Regen self rez 'clickable' as an extra heal/absorb layer.

 

4 hours ago, MTeague said:

"Revive" is the, "I was killed.... only I don't stay down" power.

And certainly "Rise of the Phoenix" has the YOU DIED but the Phoenix is always reborn angle going on.

How would these be any different with a cheat death? You still 'die'..the rez and extra effects just happen automatically.

[Razor Cure]

4 hours ago, chi1701 said:

gives the player the choice of getting back into a fight, or waiting for mobs to retreat or your team teleporting you from danger,

But having it automatically happen, WITH a heal and period of invulnerability is arguably better than actually dying in the first lace, waiting, being rezzed, using a wakie, and turning toggles back on.

[Outrider_01]

6 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Why would the 'cheat death' rez detoggle you?

They detoggle when you die, what else will happen to a toggle?  It was meant more in jest, as you face plant and repeatedly got back up only to immediately face plant again, and again, and again, and again.....STAY DOWN ALREADY!, and again, and again...WILL YOU STAY DOWN PLEASE!, and again, and again....

 

As for the final powers being a rez, most people skip all 32/38 armor clicks already as its is easy to build up defense with IO bonuses.  If not going to take a 2-3 min god mode on the T9 option, why worry about a 1 slot power you are rarely going to need with those IO bonuses, and wakies are available via right click -> turn 3 into a pale blue.  And if you didn't have any, you are mostly loosing on a few minutes to run back to the mission.  Why take a limited power, with limited requirements to trigger (if like some autos such as Martial combat in blaster, you can't slot anything in it), for a rez of all things when you could take Vengence and just pop a LOTG in the slot for a haste bonus?  The idea sounds great, but the return on investment is less some random power you already have access to and would be even less of a consideration; its a rez power of all things and not in the support sets for other AT.

 

As you said, self rezes should of never been a tier 9 power since release.  Another god mode, some power up, anything...except an awaken with 32/38 level investment that already has a cheap inspiration available and 5 minute recharges; at least Unstoppable/Strength of Will/Elude had reasons for their long timers; they were good.

[HelenCarnate]

I don't see the harm if it is turned into a toggle.  You turn it on and if something would bring you to 0 instead it brings you to 1 hp instead, you don't detoggle and you keep fighting with a smaller version of whatever would normally trigger if you actually died.  Leave the toggle off and it works exactly the same way it does now.  Now would I expect the devs we have currently to make it happen?  No, not without a lot of demand from the player base and I really do not see that happening.  

[Razor Cure]

1 hour ago, HelenCarnate said:

You turn it on and if something would bring you to 0 instead it brings you to 1 hp instead, you don't detoggle and you keep fighting with a smaller version of whatever would normally trigger if you actually died.

Exactly how I  pictured it working.

 

1 hour ago, Outrider_01 said:

They detoggle when you die, what else will happen to a toggle?

See above. The no detogglnig would tempt me to take self rez powers, and I usually do anyway, for lack of better options for powers that require no more slots.

 

1 hour ago, HelenCarnate said:

Leave the toggle off and it works exactly the same way it does now.

This. It would let the powers work both ways and provide more choice. Actually now I think more about the idea..Regen should totally HAVE a cheat death mechanic inherently baked into it (at the very very least give it to the regen self rez). it would fit with Wolverine and his (at least in some stories) ability to heal and regen FASTER and he takes more damage, almost starving off death indefinitely.

[macskull]

Fun fact: Twilight Grasp from Dark Miasma/Affinity sort of does something like this. If you die during the animation and the attack lands, the heal will actually restore HP and revive you. Granted, that's a bug but...

[Razor Cure]

7 minutes ago, macskull said:

Fun fact: Twilight Grasp from Dark Miasma/Affinity sort of does something like this. If you die during the animation and the attack lands, the heal will actually restore HP and revive you. Granted, that's a bug but...

I think some ally heals work the same..sorta.

I was doing a MO ITF awhile back, and this complete twit of a brute (fire armour, he shoulda stayed in AE) tried to dive in a HUGE mobs of Romans. Then was totally shocked they could hurt him.

I saw his health going down and used Absorb pain. Whether due to my brilliant time, a bug, or lag, he lived, despite having zero health and starting to 'fall' in a death animation.

[HelenCarnate]

36 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

I think some ally heals work the same..sorta.

I was doing a MO ITF awhile back, and this complete twit of a brute (fire armour, he shoulda stayed in AE) tried to dive in a HUGE mobs of Romans. Then was totally shocked they could hurt him.

I saw his health going down and used Absorb pain. Whether due to my brilliant time, a bug, or lag, he lived, despite having zero health and starting to 'fall' in a death animation.

 

Need to remember lesson #6

[Greycat]

A, I really don't like Diablo III and the less in this game that's like that, the better.

B, I'd much rather have control over my self-rez than have it automatically fire off, thanks.

C, everyone seems to have something they decide is "the most useless power in the game," so do try to state it as opinion, not fact.

[HelenCarnate]

2 minutes ago, Greycat said:

A, I really don't like Diablo III and the less in this game that's like that, the better.

B, I'd much rather have control over my self-rez than have it automatically fire off, thanks.

C, everyone seems to have something they decide is "the most useless power in the game," so do try to state it as opinion, not fact.

A.  So I guess pet classes are out since Diablo has those.  Same with Weapon classes, any use of bows, any costume pieces that look similar.  ect.  Get real, it is a suggestion based on a small feature they found in that game and has nothing to do with Diablo itslef.  

 

B.  See my point above.  It could be both.

 

C. I can't find the thread now but there was a post that showed which powers were skipped the most in various power sets.  Self Rez and teir 9s with big crashes were skipped most often in melee armor sets.  So yes it is fact not just opinion. 

[MTeague]

If there's some way the player can choose which version they get, I'm willing to talk turkey.  Maybe when you pick the power, you get two "Stances".  One active means your self-rez will autofire like a Cheat Death, preventing detoggles.  The other means you die, and get original functionality.  I could work with that. 

 

And changing stances would trip the cooldown for the power, so you couldn't flip it back and forth on a whim.

 

a) it wouldn't change my thematic feel for my characters if I can choose original functionality

b) I can still use an occasional death to break aggro and come back at them at my leisure.  (since I'm reasonably good at getting distance from where they spawn before I die). 

[Neogumbercules]

10 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Why would the 'cheat death' rez detoggle you? If you went to 0 hp, auto rez kicked in with the heal/invul period and KEPT toggles on..wow, that is SO far and away better than what we have now. Even just turning travel powers back on after a self rez takes up valuable time when you could be running away or cheming some lucks.

 

The cheat death options sound like a win too me. I'd just (maybe) have the Regen self rez 'clickable' as an extra heal/absorb layer.

 

How would these be any different with a cheat death? You still 'die'..the rez and extra effects just happen automatically.

Razor has it right. If an attack would reduce you to 0 or less than 0 HP, then the effect kicks in. You never actually die or get rezzed, unless you are defeated during the internal cooldown period of the ability. 

[Hyperstrike]

The thing that always annoyed me about self-rez powers is the annoying habit enemy mobs have of corpse camping.

You could run the hell away from the mobs that kill you.  And they'd trot over and stand right on you.  Meaning that if you wakie or self-rez, they hit you IMMEDIATELY and you're back to frenching floor.  Totally destroying the utility of the power.  This is why I tend to avoid taking them.

Absolutely infuriating.

[BrandX]

Love self rez powers, as they fit so many of my concepts, especially my main, but I do agree they could be improved.  However, the only improvement I feel they need, is the ability to survive the reviving if used in the middle of a mob.

 

Not be a need to run away, and hope no mobs are near you when you fall.

 

Whether this be complete invulnerability or just extremely high resists and you slot for an amount of health to be restored, or what have you.

[Leo_G]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

The thing that always annoyed me about self-rez powers is the annoying habit enemy mobs have of corpse camping.

You could run the hell away from the mobs that kill you.  And they'd trot over and stand right on you.  Meaning that if you wakie or self-rez, they hit you IMMEDIATELY and you're back to frenching floor.  Totally destroying the utility of the power.  This is why I tend to avoid taking them.

Absolutely infuriating.

You do realize self rez powers come with invulnerability periods, right? 

 

You can use Regen's self rez in the middle of a mob of foes, retoggle integration, tough and weave and still have a handful of seconds left before the mob's can affect you. I usually do all of the above then leisurely select a target to Assassin's Strike and wait out the long animation for it. 

 

Edit: in fact, I see no reason this suggestion is needed. The only thing wrong with the self rezzes is the retoggling and that's not because you can't but rather its inconvenient. Since you failed to honesty express that true intention, I will just disagree with it. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Leo_G

[MTeague]

22 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

You do realize self rez powers come with invulnerability periods, right? 

Some do, not all... particularly the one in the Presence pool.... and certainly wakie's dont.

[MTeague]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

The thing that always annoyed me about self-rez powers is the annoying habit enemy mobs have of corpse camping.

I havne't had that be a problem in most instances, but certainly in Praetoria or the Wards, on a mission that comes pre-packaged with laser-guided-persist-through-death ambushes.... yea.

Edited August 11, 2020 by MTeague

[Hyperstrike]

43 minutes ago, Leo_G said:

Since you failed to honesty express that true intention, I will just disagree with it. 

And thank you for telling me I'm being dishonest and hiding my true intention.

...

[Ralathar44]

Nope, I like how they currently function and when used correctly they work well.  Depending on the set you rez in teh middle of the mob or you understand that when things go bad you need to get a touch of distance before you go down.  In the hands of a player that understands the limits of their character and how their powers work they're pretty effective.  Kinda like when I suicidal jumped into death yesterday to howling twilight the tank that went down.  I understood I would die, but I also understood that if I did not do this the team would wipe and that the tank could handled the weakened mob once they got back up.

Gotta know how to properly use the cards in your hand.   Self Rezs are powerful cards in many situations and QOL cards in others.  Changing them to your suggestion just makes them additional mitigation and robs most of the nuance from them.  Qualifies as power creep too since it would make them stronger overall.  Even if everything else worked the same not dropping aggro, not getting debt, becoming invulnerable, and not losing that precious 2-3 seconds when you are downed and then self rez and retoggle is not an insignificant buff to alot of sets that do not need it.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Ralathar44