Game Balance & The Endgame

[Naraka]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

@Naraka there are things already in place like target caps and size of AoEs. The incarnate powers kinda broke that aspect and will likely be addressed.

 

The caps and AoE size isn't really something the mobs can use to defend themselves or requires player consideration to overcome. 

1 hour ago, Piecemeal said:

I *personally* think fighting the AoE meta is a road not worth taking. The playerbase has always defined what makes this game fun. I do *not* want to take away anyone's fun. I have a bunch of ideas on the whiteboard...

 

Quote

TL;DR: I'm here to enhance your gameplay through diversity.

The main reason I bring it up is to shake things up rather than the same overall tactic of hoard and nuke. That's the intent I was reading with giving mobs toggles to drop to make CC a more situationally important tool. I feel the same could be said for other less meta aspects such as ST compared to AoE. 

 

I feel this was part of the intent behind the night ward mobs(I'm blanking on the faction name... The ones with the dark control users summoning the haunts and dogs) to drown out some of the AoE as well as forcing some of the ST using taunt. These can break up how you approach a fight a bit although it can get pretty messy with all the extra pets. 

 

My thought process was more introducing mobs that use the MM damage distribute function or some other function to give certain mobs the ability to absorb attacks for multiple targets or as a target that counts as more than one target. 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Naraka

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Lines said:

3 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

I might do this by removing a door in a map that you've grown used to

You fiend!

@Lines I had a similar thought 'Oh dear gawd, please don't make some of those office maps more maze like!'

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

there are things already in place like target caps and size of AoEs.

What if you gave a new group a little extra AoE defense.  That would make a few more critters survive the player alpha strike.  It would make little difference in big AoE teams, but solo and small teams would have to think about it.

 

[ShardWarrior]

12 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

What if you gave a new group a little extra AoE defense.  That would make a few more critters survive the player alpha strike.  It would make little difference in big AoE teams, but solo and small teams would have to think about it.

This might be interesting.  Could give a new faction sets like Shield Defense which would make groups of them very interesting to fight.

[Wavicle]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

enemy group toggles would be a dream but they don't exist. IF they did exist, toggle dropping by sapping endurance would give the endurance drain powers more purpose. As well as stun, sleep, holds.. Unfortunately, toggle dropping only effects players.

That’s not true at all.

 

Mez and end drain absolutely drop enemy toggles. Try it on a Sorcerer, for example.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Wavicle

[Piecemeal]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

What if you gave a new group a little extra AoE defense.  That would make a few more critters survive the player alpha strike.  It would make little difference in big AoE teams, but solo and small teams would have to think about it.

 

When the story opens up on the Freaklok, you may notice I've already worked in a post death buff mechanic for them.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

That’s not true at all.

 

Mez and end drain absolutely drop enemy toggles. Try it on a Sorcerer, for example.

Before its interjected with, I'll post the response:

 

Those aren't actually toggles but rather temp clicks with a finite duration that can prematurely expire if mezzed. 

 

For all intents and purposes, tho, they behave nearly identical to toggles. I've heard such powerd don't turn off when their END drops to 0 but I want to say I've experienced the opposite. Needless to say, giving more mobs similar powers but maybe with AI that will automatically use these powers upon being spawned rather than upon being aggroed. 

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Piecemeal said:

post death buff mechanic

[Coyote]

12 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

How about a post-death debuff mechanism (auto-hit, of course), that isn't activated if the mob is mezzed when killed? Boy, would THAT bring AoE Controls back in a hurry 😉

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

That’s not true at all.

 

Mez and end drain absolutely drop enemy toggles. Try it on a Sorcerer, for example.

Aren't the sorcerer PBAoE and AoE more attacks, debuffs and quasi-pets?

 

I can rephrase to say 'defensive toggle dropping'.

 

[ivanhedgehog]

9 hours ago, Naraka said:

Is there any goal in fighting AoE meta? 

 

While I like seeing a bunch of effects and numbers float up from a crowd, it often feels unearned and with the right AoEs, you can still neutralize most encounters. 

 

Not saying to nerf AoEs or anything, but wondering if mobs can get something to defend against them. 

maybe we should just make everyone have single target melee attacks? that will make you earn it.. nerf single target holds? make agro control only single target? That doesnt sound like a game I would want to play.

[ivanhedgehog]

6 hours ago, Mezmera said:

I'm not talking about hover tanking.  A portable workbench could do what you did...

A non IO'd blaster will not be doing that. Since we balance around SO's, it really isnt even part of the conversation.

[Mezmera]

6 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

A non IO'd blaster will not be doing that. Since we balance around SO's, it really isnt even part of the conversation.

Who says the workbench isn't IO'd?

[Wavicle]

28 minutes ago, Troo said:

Aren't the sorcerer PBAoE and AoE more attacks, debuffs and quasi-pets?

 

I can rephrase to say 'defensive toggle dropping'.

 

Mez a demon lord and his Invincibility drops. It isn’t true for all mobs, but it is for many.

 

 But I’m pretty sure sorcerer Hurricane and Chill of the Night are toggles that will drop if mezzed or end drained.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Wavicle

[Naraka]

36 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

maybe we should just make everyone have single target melee attacks? that will make you earn it.. nerf single target holds? make agro control only single target? That doesnt sound like a game I would want to play.

Well the idea was more targeted at "take out that Lt first because it's going to absorb most of the AoEs". Again, it's more to mix things up rather than get the same result so long as you have enough team members spamming AoE powers. 

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, ivanhedgehog said:

maybe we should just make everyone have single target melee attacks? that will make you earn it.. nerf single target holds? make agro control only single target? That doesnt sound like a game I would want to play.

Agreed. Sounds boring as hell.

[golstat2003]

25 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Well the idea was more targeted at "take out that Lt first because it's going to absorb most of the AoEs". Again, it's more to mix things up rather than get the same result so long as you have enough team members spamming AoE powers. 

In other difficulty options or new mobs sure.

[Ralathar44]

21 hours ago, Troo said:

I love this. Isn't this how the game should be? (no need for it to be overkill, but a sprinkle of awareness, recognition and tactics)

 

We don't have to deal with that Nemesis Lieutenant but it is gonna take a bit longer if we don't.

Pretty much, I just wish it popped up more.  I've prolly fielded 20+ different characters of different types vs carnies and that regen brute was the first one to even notice that existed.  Even with my Regen brute only reason I noticed is because I was starting a new team and we only had like 3 people facing +4/8 Carnes with me tanking.  In a full team the enemies would have been wiped so fast I wouldn't have had the opportunity to notice.
 

20 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

Welcome to my design ethic!

I hope to see that in action alot in the future 🙂.  I think that currently exists for solo characters and small teams depending on the AT/power set involve but with other power sets and in full teams it basically ceases to exist.  And unfortunately I think if yall design new content that does make people pause and acknowledge threats here and there that people would avoid it even if it was still easy to deal with.   While players have every right to play the things they wanna play, that Civilization quote about players optimizing the fun out of things comes back to mind too.  It's always a balance.

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

Well the idea was more targeted at "take out that Lt first because it's going to absorb most of the AoEs". Again, it's more to mix things up rather than get the same result so long as you have enough team members spamming AoE powers. 

Changes like that would pretty much kill a blasters chance of soloing. The greater time to kill mobs would ensure death.

[Ralathar44]

34 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

In other difficulty options or new mobs sure.

There is already precedent for adding new mobs with existing groups.  No reason existing groups cant receive a few new critters that may make them more interesting.  Some groups are way weaker than others so there is room to add a few things here and there without actually breaking with the games existing level of balance and then the results could be observed and plans going forwards could be modified based on that.

[Ralathar44]

1 minute ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Changes like that would pretty much kill a blasters chance of soloing. The greater time to kill mobs would ensure death.

No it wouldn't.  It might potentially reduce the difficulty you solo at on that specific enemy group but there is zero chance it would prevent you from soloing unless you absolutely refuse to reduce the difficulty from where you've bumped it up to.  We can change difficulty on the fly anywhere so at worst it'd be a trivial inconvenience you rarely faced.

 

[ivanhedgehog]

7 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

No it wouldn't.  It might potentially reduce the difficulty you solo at on that specific enemy group but there is zero chance it would prevent you from soloing unless you absolutely refuse to reduce the difficulty from where you've bumped it up to.  We can change difficulty on the fly anywhere so at worst it'd be a trivial inconvenience you rarely faced.

 

My level 23 blaster in striga is not running at elevated difficulty solo. But the additional damage taken would definitely kill her faster.

[Naraka]

57 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Changes like that would pretty much kill a blasters chance of soloing. The greater time to kill mobs would ensure death.

Would depend if your running max team solo. On reg difficulty, that blaster would just snipe that target first. 

[Naraka]

57 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

My level 23 blaster in striga is not running at elevated difficulty solo. But the additional damage taken would definitely kill her faster.

Again, it would hinge on if you're higher team number while solo. On normal, having a mob that counts as 5 targets while having 5 other targets still let's you nuke that spawn. It would only be a difference if there were 2 of 3 of said mob requiring a ST approach thus is likely more likely to occur on higher settings. 

 

But the overall point is to cause you to rethink your approach. Do you not see a means to change your tactics for that particular blaster? 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Naraka

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Ralathar44 said:

There is already precedent for adding new mobs with existing groups.  No reason existing groups cant receive a few new critters that may make them more interesting.  Some groups are way weaker than others so there is room to add a few things here and there without actually breaking with the games existing level of balance and then the results could be observed and plans going forwards could be modified based on that.

That's fine. Let's just not keeping tweaking balance to infinity. At some point I'd like more story content.

 

And I still say the harder groups should be in optional higher difficulty settings. Especially if we're talking about 50+ incarnate content.