Game Balance & The Endgame

[Blackfeather]

1 hour ago, Darmian said:

You can't even do those if you're a Praetorian anyway.

...no? I've done it as a non-Praetorian, test it out on the beta shard after unlocking Incarnates, @CaptainLupis.

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, Blackfeather said:

...no? I've done it as a non-Praetorian, test it out on the beta shard after unlocking Incarnates, @CaptainLupis.

I've unlocked incarnates as a Praetorian and you simply cannot go to the RWZ. 

[Blackfeather]

13 minutes ago, Darmian said:

I've unlocked incarnates as a Praetorian and you simply cannot go to the RWZ. 

Whoops, misread Praetorian/non-Praetorian, my mistake.

[Darmian]

1 minute ago, Blackfeather said:

Whoops, misread Praetorian/non-Praetorian, my mistake.

Ah, we all do things like that 😄

 

[CaptainLupis]

20 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

...no? I've done it as a non-Praetorian, test it out on the beta shard after unlocking Incarnates, @CaptainLupis.

No need, we've worked out it's because his Praetorian alt never left Praetoria. (edit: plus I can't access the test server, the game client cashes when loading a zone logging in)

 

@Darmian Out of curiosity have you tried getting the arc through an Ouro crystal in the SG base?

Edited November 5, 2020 by CaptainLupis

[Panthonca7034]

10 hours ago, CaptainLupis said:

Number 6's arc in the RWZ is all about the DE trying to overrun Praetoria.

I posted in the suggestions thread to be more specific about goldside, where technically its supposed to go. And as I stated before, Number Six' arc left me with more questions than answers...

 

 

[Darmian]

Just now, CaptainLupis said:

No need, we've worked out it's because his Praetorian alt never left Praetoria.

 

@Darmian Out of curiosity have you tried getting the arc through an Ouro crystal in the SG base?

I have.  Same thing.  You have to be able to get to the start point.  So I can do say, Cole's Personal story or The Emperor's Sword, because they start from Night Ward, but not Number 6's because it tries to TP you to the RWZ door.

[CaptainLupis]

2 minutes ago, Darmian said:

I have.  Same thing.  You have to be able to get to the start point.  So I can do say, Cole's Personal story or The Emperor's Sword, because they start from Night Ward, but not Number 6's because it tries to TP you to the RWZ door.

I suspected that may be the case, but thought there was a slim chance it could work. Ah well.

[Bill Z Bubba]

I'm finding that after I completed a @Werner rules ITF, my desire to argue about game balance has gone out the window. I don't think anyone should be able to solo a max diff ITF with enemies buffed, insps and temps disabled, with zero faceplants.

 

But what I think doesn't matter. And I'm ok with that as long as I'm able to log into this game and slice apart enemies with my claws/sr scrapper. Getting 3 vet lvls per hour and raking in a TON of inf. 🙂

[Tsuko]

7 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm finding that after I completed a @Werner rules ITF, my desire to argue about game balance has gone out the window. I don't think anyone should be able to solo a max diff ITF with enemies buffed, insps and temps disabled, with zero faceplants.

 

But what I think doesn't matter. And I'm ok with that as long as I'm able to log into this game and slice apart enemies with my claws/sr scrapper. Getting 3 vet lvls per hour and raking in a TON of inf. 🙂

[Epoch Paradox]

So this max diff ITF soloing business... that's something only a few people are doing? Or are you guys all stomping through it with your empath/psi defenders while no one is looking...

Are you suggesting there is a huge discrepancy between ATs? Anyone with something other than tanker, scrapper, brute... want to post ITF max setting speed run times?

I guess I'm just saying it doesn't seem all that surprising that the obviously stronger ATs still far outperform the obviously weaker ones. So what are we figuring out here? Defenders and the like need to be nerfed along with tankers to find game balance? I wonder what kind of insane buffs would be needed before the new FoTY was a "support" character. 'Spine/Fire brute? Hah! You should see this arch/TA tear through the mobs!' I know, it seems completely ridiculous...

[Tsuko]

5 hours ago, Epoch Paradox said:

So this max diff ITF soloing business... that's something only a few people are doing? Or are you guys all stomping through it with your empath/psi defenders while no one is looking...

Are you suggesting there is a huge discrepancy between ATs? Anyone with something other than tanker, scrapper, brute... want to post ITF max setting speed run times?

I guess I'm just saying it doesn't seem all that surprising that the obviously stronger ATs still far outperform the obviously weaker ones. So what are we figuring out here? Defenders and the like need to be nerfed along with tankers to find game balance? I wonder what kind of insane buffs would be needed before the new FoTY was a "support" character. 'Spine/Fire brute? Hah! You should see this arch/TA tear through the mobs!' I know, it seems completely ridiculous...

 

[Hew]

On 11/8/2020 at 4:50 AM, Epoch Paradox said:

So this max diff ITF soloing business... that's something only a few people are doing? Or are you guys all stomping through it with your empath/psi defenders while no one is looking...

Are you suggesting there is a huge discrepancy between ATs? Anyone with something other than tanker, scrapper, brute... want to post ITF max setting speed run times?

I guess I'm just saying it doesn't seem all that surprising that the obviously stronger ATs still far outperform the obviously weaker ones. So what are we figuring out here? Defenders and the like need to be nerfed along with tankers to find game balance? I wonder what kind of insane buffs would be needed before the new FoTY was a "support" character. 'Spine/Fire brute? Hah! You should see this arch/TA tear through the mobs!' I know, it seems completely ridiculous...

@Linea has "nonstandard" builds that do this kind of thing. A quick review of postings shows at least 1 defender.

[Epoch Paradox]

45 minutes ago, Hew said:

@Linea has "nonstandard" builds that do this kind of thing. A quick review of postings shows at least 1 defender.

Indeed and a rare testament to what is possible. It's an exception, not the norm. Some of us couldn't pull that off if we had private lessons for a year 😄

[Werner]

On 11/8/2020 at 1:50 AM, Epoch Paradox said:

So this max diff ITF soloing business... that's something only a few people are doing? Or are you guys all stomping through it with your empath/psi defenders while no one is looking...

I've surely missed some examples, particularly as I'm pulling only from a couple of threads, but for solo +4x8 MoITF, enemies buffed, no temps, no insps, no deaths, I know of five people having done it, using two Scrappers, one Brute, and seven Tankers. Without enemies buffed, I know more people have done it, and with a wider variety of archetypes.

[Werner]

On 11/7/2020 at 11:38 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm finding that after I completed a @Werner rules ITF, my desire to argue about game balance has gone out the window. I don't think anyone should be able to solo a max diff ITF with enemies buffed, insps and temps disabled, with zero faceplants.

 

But what I think doesn't matter. And I'm ok with that as long as I'm able to log into this game and slice apart enemies with my claws/sr scrapper. Getting 3 vet lvls per hour and raking in a TON of inf. 🙂

Agreed. It seems ridiculous that we can do it, but what I think doesn't matter, and I'm still really enjoying the game, so it's all good.

[Epoch Paradox]

2 hours ago, Werner said:

Agreed. It seems ridiculous that we can do it, but what I think doesn't matter, and I'm still really enjoying the game, so it's all good.

To be fair, I've never actually attempted that particular benchmark but, I think it's awesome when people pull off extraordinary things. I take it most of you don't do things like that and then go complaining that the game is too easy and therefore, nerf everyone. Just a difficult task for bragging rights? Also, is Rommy set to EB or AV? I might have to give it a shot just so I know how poor I am at this game. Still having fun here in noobland too! Keep it up!

 

"I don't think he is using the same wind as we are using..." -Inigo Montoya

Edited November 10, 2020 by Epoch Paradox

[Tsuko]

30 minutes ago, Epoch Paradox said:

To be fair, I've never actually attempted that particular benchmark but, I think it's awesome when people pull off extraordinary things. I take it most of you don't do things like that and then go complaining that the game is too easy and therefore, nerf everyone. Just a difficult task for bragging rights? Also, is Rommy set to EB or AV? I might have to give it a shot just so I know how poor I am at this game. Still having fun here in noobland too! Keep it up!

yeah @Werner itf runs are fun !

 

(just between us, take a look here before, you could need it https://www.amazon.fr/METAL-BOXE-Coquille-pour-Homme/dp/B00O2ZDKHE?th=1 cause those runs can be ... painfull)

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by Tsuko

[Werner]

17 minutes ago, Epoch Paradox said:

To be fair, I've never actually attempted that particular benchmark but, I think it's awesome when people pull off extraordinary things. I take it most of you don't do things like that and then go complaining that the game is too easy and therefore, nerf everyone. Just a difficult task for bragging rights? Also, is Rommy set to EB or AV? I might have to give it a shot just so I know how poor I am at this game. Still having fun here in noobland too! Keep it up!

For the ITF stuff, I don't remember seeing anyone complaining that the game is too easy or calling for nerfs. Well, maybe I implied it was too easy in one post when I compared what we can do now to what we could do in the old game, saying there'd been some power creep, but I don't remember calling for nerfs. You can still make the game hard on yourself if you want it hard. I do it for the fun of it, the challenge, and bragging rights. And the ITF is my favorite task force, so I'm glad it became the challenge du jour vs. some other one. It's set to AVs. I don't think you can get AVs to spawn as EBs on a task force, regardless of settings, but I don't think I've ever tried.

[Haijinx]

On 11/7/2020 at 2:38 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm finding that after I completed a @Werner rules ITF, my desire to argue about game balance has gone out the window. I don't think anyone should be able to solo a max diff ITF with enemies buffed, insps and temps disabled, with zero faceplants.

 

But what I think doesn't matter. And I'm ok with that as long as I'm able to log into this game and slice apart enemies with my claws/sr scrapper. Getting 3 vet lvls per hour and raking in a TON of inf. 🙂

You would think this was a self evident point. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

You would think this was a self evident point. 

You would. But some of us, many of us, often lose sight of the important things and get weighed down in the minutiae.

 

I still prefer mathematical purity and beauty in the underlying coding of the powersets. I still prefer balance.

 

But in the end, I just like killin shit with the animations that the original devs gave us. As I've aged, so too have my opinions. Or my desire to fight on these here forums. It happens.

[Werner]

34 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

those runs can be ... painful

What? I don’t know what you’re talking about!

 

<whistles innocently>

(I have been accused of being a masochist. Or one might argue a sadist since I’ve encouraged others to attempt it.)

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Werner said:

What? I don’t know what you’re talking about!

 

<whistles innocently>

(I have been accused of being a masochist. Or one might argue a sadist since I’ve encouraged others to attempt it.)

[Epoch Paradox]

39 minutes ago, Werner said:

What? I don’t know what you’re talking about!

 

<whistles innocently>

(I have been accused of being a masochist. Or one might argue a sadist since I’ve encouraged others to attempt it.)

Oh wait, you didn't select "enhancements have no effect"?! And here I was thinking you ticked ALL the boxes... "Max difficulty" and all...

 

[Linea]

I've soloed a +4x8 ITF with (almost) everything except a petless mm, (but with all the toys, temps, and inspirations).  ...  With galacticly wide varying degrees of difficulty, some combinations are simply not at all worth ever trying again, it was entirely too difficult.  Emp/ and Tank are two that are right on that line, with kills taking up to an hour ... and you have to kill (or almost kill) that %!@#$^% as many as 6 times ... that's up to 6 hours, not worth it.

 

In the end, the game balance really boils down to the AT modifiers, and then in-AT set balance, and issues with IOs.

The former AT-Modifiers are well balanced, and WAI overall.  The latter is totally whack, and always has been.  Example, the best blast set (multiplied by IOs) can do 3.5x more damage than the worst blast set (also multiplied by IOs).  That discrepancy gets even worse if the latter (worst) set does not have IOs nor incarnates or is poorly built.  And that's the kind of thing we typically see.  It's not Defender vs Corruptor, it's a T4 Corruptor built for damage being compared to a SO defender built for support.   OF COURSE it's going to be a whack comparison.   But build that defender as a T4 Offender, and it might out perform the Corruptor (when I did this comparison fairly and equally with mirror builds, they came out even with the defender builds a bit easier to build and a bit more flexible).