Why I think Corruptors are taking a back seat to Defenders

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Same as Scourge, no?

Scourge, although IMO needs work, works the same on or off teams. So no, I can't really agree with that without being more specific.

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Scourge, although IMO needs work, works the same on or off teams. So no, I can't really agree with that without being more specific.

On paper, sure, but as was pointed out earlier, the more teammates you have, the faster enemies die and the less chance you have to Scourge.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Vanden said:

On paper, sure, but as was pointed out earlier, the more teammates you have, the faster enemies die and the less chance you have to Scourge.

Which is the reason I feel that Scourge needs to have a chance to proc starting with a 5% chance at level 100, scaling up to 100% chance to proc at 10% Health. And since I feel that is the buff they need (even solo this is a problem, it's not really just a team specific issue) I think the only way to balance it out is by increasing the Defender Base Damage modifier to be the same was what a Corrupter has. That way Defenders remain relevant DPS wise, they just won't get the benefit of Scourge and the extra DPS it would provide if Scourge is modified.

[Vanden]

Just now, Solarverse said:

Which is the reason I feel that Scourge needs to have a chance to proc starting with a 5% chance at level 100, scaling up to 100% chance to proc at 10% Health. And since I feel that is the buff they need (even solo this is a problem, it's not really just a team specific issue) I think the only way to balance it out is by increasing the Defender Base Damage modifier to be the same was what a Corrupter has. That way Defenders remain relevant DPS wise, they just won't get the benefit of Scourge and the extra DPS it would provide if Scourge is modified.

But why? Why do Corruptors need to do more damage? It's largely acknowledged that players are doing too much damage as a whole, so why is a damage buff justified for this entire AT? They already do more damage than Defenders outside of heavy proc shenanigans.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Vanden said:

But why? Why do Corruptors need to do more damage? It's largely acknowledged that players are doing too much damage as a whole, so why is a damage buff justified for this entire AT? They already do more damage than Defenders outside of heavy proc shenanigans.

In all fairness, I did suggest at one point that the actual damage gets scaled back a bit to allow for the Scourge buff. The primary issue with Scourge that people are having (I see this mentioned in game extremely often) is that Scourge only seems to proc when it is pointless to do so. I would simply like to make it relevant beyond AV and GM fights. Sure, not everyone is going to agree, but those are the reasons regardless.

[Vanden]

9 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

In all fairness, I did suggest at one point that the actual damage gets scaled back a bit to allow for the Scourge buff. The primary issue with Scourge that people are having (I see this mentioned in game extremely often) is that Scourge only seems to proc when it is pointless to do so. I would simply like to make it relevant beyond AV and GM fights. Sure, not everyone is going to agree, but those are the reasons regardless.

If you reduce Corruptor base damage to make up for the extra damage from more Scourge, then you haven't changed anything with the AT overall, and you've made their ability to do damage more random and less reliable. What's the benefit of doing that?

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

If you reduce Corruptor base damage to make up for the extra damage from more Scourge, then you haven't changed anything with the AT overall, and you've made their ability to do damage more random and less reliable. What's the benefit of doing that?

I'm open to better ideas.

[Vanden]

I don't think any change is needed at all. Yes, Corruptors don't see much use in Scourging anything weak, but that's the exact design intent behind the inherent.

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I don't think any change is needed at all. Yes, Corruptors don't see much use in Scourging anything weak, but that's the exact design intent behind the inherent.

For when it was created in conception. However, the game has changed so much since then. Back then IO's were not even invented yet. This is why I feel the change is needed...or at least a change is due to be considered and discussed over the table by the Devs to determine if a change is required or not.

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

For when it was created in conception. However, the game has changed so much since then. Back then IO's were not even invented yet. This is why I feel the change is needed...or at least a change is due to be considered and discussed over the table by the Devs to determine if a change is required or not.

There has to be some kind of reason to make a change. This is all sounding more like you're bored with it now and just want something new.

[Solarverse]

9 minutes ago, Vanden said:

There has to be some kind of reason to make a change. This is all sounding more like you're bored with it now and just want something new.

On the contrary, I'm trying to make them as relevant as the other classes in the game today.

 

How many times have you seen people say that they feel like they are not contributing to a team unless they are involved in an AV fight or a GM fight. How many times have Defenders and Corruptor and even Controller players complained that they feel useless on a team?

The direction this game has taken has created an environment where mobs and even AV's die so quickly, that the support classes feel like they are just filling spots on a team rather than giving real contribution. I don't think this is just in people's heads. I think there is merit to this and I am just trying to think of ways to improve the sets without making them stupid OP that gives the player who plays them a feeling of being adequate.

At one time, the players who felt support classes were left behind in the class balance game were viewed by me as it "all being in their head and not based on anything tangible or real logic." Since then I have grown to realize that maybe there is more to it than something that is just "in their heads." I do think it is time for the data team to take a look and I think it is time for the Devs to sit and talk about this and figure out...is it time for a rebalance of Support Classes? And if so, which support classes need the rebalancing?

Edited October 8, 2020 by Solarverse

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

On the contrary, I'm trying to make them as relevant as the other classes in the game today.

 

How many times have you seen people say that they feel like they are not contributing to a team unless they are involved in an AV fight or a GM fight. How many times have Defenders and Corruptor and even Controller players complained that they feel useless on a team?

The direction this game has taken has created an environment where mobs and even AV's die so quickly, that the support classes feel like they are just filling spots on a team rather than giving real contribution. I don't think this is just in people's heads. I think there is merit to this and I am just trying to think of ways to improve the sets without making them stupid OP that gives the player who plays them a feeling of being adequate.

At one time, the players who felt support classes were left behind in the class balance game were viewed by me as it "all being in their head and not based on anything tangible or real logic." Since then I have grown to realize that maybe there is more to it than something that is just "in their heads." I do think it is time for the data team to take a look and I think it is time for the Devs to sit and talk about this and figure out...is it time for a rebalance of Support Classes? And if so, which support classes need the rebalancing?

That is absolutely not a reason to buff Scourge, then, because the solution to "everyone's doing too much damage all the time and winning before support even matters" is not going to be "let the support do more damage."

[Apparition]

53 minutes ago, Vanden said:

But why? Why do Corruptors need to do more damage? It's largely acknowledged that players are doing too much damage as a whole, so why is a damage buff justified for this entire AT? They already do more damage than Defenders outside of heavy proc shenanigans.

 

Yep, and it's been stated by developers a few times that damage procs are going to be nerfed at some point.

[Troo]

I do not share this view: "Why I think Corruptors are taking a back seat to Defenders"

Would I take some more scourge, YES.

Does scourge need to start at 100%, no. 

 

I think the only defenders that are out pacing corruptors are proc monsters. The average corruptor is actually a good fit in the current meta with a damage focus backed up by some buff and controls.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Vanden said:

That is absolutely not a reason to buff Scourge, then, because the solution to "everyone's doing too much damage all the time and winning before support even matters" is not going to be "let the support do more damage."

To be fair, other requests have been introduced that attempts to balance the game on more lasting battles and they always get shut down by the players. Nobody seems to want the game more challenging, so what other choice do we have? I do not see any other logical way bring balance to the game since other ideas have been repeatedly shot down.

[Troo]

a smidge "more lasting battles" = good

significantly "more lasting battles" in pvp = very good

more tactical fights = good

 

I so told myself not to get sucked into this..

[summers]

If the issue is that everything is dying too fast I’m against the idea of increasing damage

[Solarverse]

10 hours ago, summers said:

If the issue is that everything is dying too fast I’m against the idea of increasing damage

As you can see by previous response though, any attempt made to make fights last longer and/or increase the difficulty of the game is met with torches and pitchforks. I am only trying to work within the boundaries that the players of this server have established. I don't think we should just leave things as they are either. So if we can't make the game more difficult so that Defenders, Controllers and Corruptors play a bigger role on teams, and if we can't buff those classes to give them a bigger role on teams, then what do we have left?

Something somewhere has to give. Otherwise we leave Corruptors, Defenders and Controllers feeling inadequate indefinitely. That is a pipe that won't stay sealed forever, if we leave them as is without increasing difficulty of the game, eventually that pipe is going to burst, IMO.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Solarverse

[Twisted Toon]

I think the real problem with support ATs feeling useless on large teams, is primarily laid at the Incarnate power's feet.

One way to possibly fix it, is to make Incarnate abilities only work with incarnate content, and not all content.

That way, you won't have Damage dealing (or Tanking) ATs able to take over the duties the support ATs, in addition to their normal stuff.

 

This will, of course, annoy a lot of fully incarnated people that like to trivialize normal content.

 

Do I think it's a good idea? Probably not. Just one that I came up with about 10 seconds ago.

[summers]

9 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

I think the real problem with support ATs feeling useless on large teams, is primarily laid at the Incarnate power's feet.

One way to possibly fix it, is to make Incarnate abilities only work with incarnate content, and not all content.

That way, you won't have Damage dealing (or Tanking) ATs able to take over the duties the support ATs, in addition to their normal stuff.

 

This will, of course, annoy a lot of fully incarnated people that like to trivialize normal content.

 

Do I think it's a good idea? Probably not. Just one that I came up with about 10 seconds ago.

I'm very much a broken record but I'd like to add something to this!

 

Judgements are prolific sources of nukes with no real cost - you don't spend a power pick on it, there's no slot investment, they are fast recharging nukes that potentially the whole team has in rotation.

T9 blast nukes have had the crash stripped from them, and interact with the extreme recharge environment IOs bring along with Build Up + Gaussians into real powerhouses.

IOs grant many characters soft capped defence which reduces the value of +defence support and -tohit debuff. Many groups with just a little bit of IOs and maneuvers are at the cap already.

Edited October 8, 2020 by summers

[Grouchybeast]

8 hours ago, Solarverse said:

To be fair, other requests have been introduced that attempts to balance the game on more lasting battles and they always get shut down by the players. Nobody seems to want the game more challenging, so what other choice do we have? I do not see any other logical way bring balance to the game since other ideas have been repeatedly shot down.

The fact that idea 'get shut down by the players' means nothing, since the players aren't the ones making changes to the game.  The HC devs have so far made the changes they felt were necessary for the health of the game, even when some of the players threw a giant tantrum about it.

[Carnifax]

5 hours ago, summers said:

I'm very much a broken record but I'd like to add something to this!

 

Judgements are prolific sources of nukes with no real cost - you don't spend a power pick on it, there's no slot investment, they are fast recharging nukes that potentially the whole team has in rotation.

T9 blast nukes have had the crash stripped from them, and interact with the extreme recharge environment IOs bring along with Build Up + Gaussians into real powerhouses.

IOs grant many characters soft capped defence which reduces the value of +defence support and -tohit debuff. Many groups with just a little bit of IOs and maneuvers are at the cap already.

This. Judgements are bloody stupid things and should never have been added to the game as-is. Double the recharge and / or lower the damage. There's no way it should have gone live as it is. 

 

Lore is somewhat problematic too but at least they have a long cooldown. 

[Frostbiter]

For Scourge I could see it possibly changed to something like a stacking counter system. 5 stacks of scourge and it consumes them for a boosted hit. Wouldn't really change the functionality against harder targets but would see more use against lesser foes. Just throwing out the idea.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Frostbiter said:

For Scourge I could see it possibly changed to something like a stacking counter system. 5 stacks of scourge and it consumes them for a boosted hit. Wouldn't really change the functionality against harder targets but would see more use against lesser foes. Just throwing out the idea.

I get what you are shooting for but please PLEASE not this way across an archetype.

[Frostbiter]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

I get what you are shooting for but please PLEASE not this way across an archetype.

I'm just playing around with the idea. To me Scourge needs to function in a way that actually makes sense. Right now it's basically an overkill button for anything less than a boss. What's the point of exposing an enemies weakness when they're already begging for mercy? 

 

The stacking counter doesn't need to pile on the damage. I was more thinking something like 5 stacks giving +30% damage vs minions, +25% vs Lts and +20% vs Bosses and up on  the hit that consumes the stack. It could even be tweaked down fairly easy since it would be overpowered if it were to equal even 150% damage every fifth hit landed. It's not meant to be a crititcal hit method for Corrupters or to trivialize hard targets.