Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[ABlueThingy]

If we removed the combo system entirely, no orange rings, no powers buffing other powers in sequence, no "Focus gained"...

 

But the powers were adjusted in such a way that the most optimal rotation in EM was the same as it is now on test.  TF/ET was still the most optimal rotation because of how the rech/dmg/animation shakes out.

 

What would people think of that?

[Infinitum]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:08 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Then that's an enormous mistake by the devs, IMHO.

 

Energy Melee used to be the King of Single Target Damage, and it should be again. What's the point of even 'fixing' Energy Melee if it's not going to regain that title?

 

So War Mace does better AoE AND better single target damage than Energy Melee? Ridiculous! Can I at least blame THAT on PvP? (j/k Macskull)

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Well not every test caters to the strengths of the set on every AT.

 

Stalker EM pylons better than anything else.

 

Scrapper EM does better in saturated enemy environments.  My scrapper will clear a map faster than my stalker but my stalker is faster on the Pylon.

 

Pylon is not the end all be all and we need to keep that in mind.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Infinitum

[Super Atom]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:11 PM, ABlueThingy said:

If we removed the combo system entirely, no orange rings, no powers buffing other powers in sequence, no "Focus gained"...

 

But the powers were adjusted in such a way that the most optimal rotation in EM was the same as it is now on test.  TF/ET was still the most optimal rotation because of how the rech/dmg/animation shakes out.

 

What would people think of that?

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TF doesn't just buff ET with PF, it's a three prong choice you can go down.

 

As to your earlier comment, Its not all EM players, it's a small vocal minority of people who both like and dislike it speaking up.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Super Atom

[Super Atom]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:12 PM, Infinitum said:

Pylon is not the end all be all and we need to keep that in mind.

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Understatement of the year. Controlled vacuum =/= actual game play performance with varying enemies/situations.

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:13 PM, Super Atom said:

TF doesn't just buff ET with PF, it's a three prong choice you can go down.

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Correct. You can EITHER buff ET OR PC OR BS. Or you can choose to stay gimped on the powers you didn't choose to follow TF. What a great choice.

[Infinitum]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:14 PM, Super Atom said:

Understatement of the year. Controlled vacuum =/= actual game play performance with varying enemies/situations.

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Another problem is we don't have a scrapper EM to compare live vs beta on

 

But my results show an improvement of 2 min or more across all ATs

[Super Atom]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:14 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Correct. You can EITHER buff ET OR PC OR BS. Or you can choose to stay gimped on the powers you didn't choose to follow TF. What a great choice.

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They aren't gimped though, do you feel gimped when BU wears off? Do you just stop attacking until its back up? PF increases those powers to limits that aren't suppose to be normal, the normal is without PF.

 

situational buffs, as it were.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Super Atom

[Infinitum]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:14 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Correct. You can EITHER buff ET OR PC OR BS. Or you can choose to stay gimped on the powers you didn't choose to follow TF. What a great choice.

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The fact that you can do all 3 is flexibility, you can choose one if you like, or you can rotate, but keep in mind 2 of the choices are additions.

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:16 PM, Super Atom said:

They aren't gimped though, do you feel gimped when BU wears off? Do you just stop attacking until its back up? PF increases those powers to limits that aren't suppose to be normal, the normal is without PF.

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The normal is a gimped version regardless of whether BU is active.

[ABlueThingy]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:04 PM, Infinitum said:

Eh its not all of us, my main on live was EM. I love the change, and any way you slice the actual data is an improvement and more flexible.

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I don't think anyone is disputing that it's a mechanical gain.  People are complaining because it changes the feel of the set for them in a way that negatively impacts their play experience.

 

Everyone knows EM is shit on live.  But people play it anyway because they like the FEEL of the set.   The complaint is that they only wanted the mechanical portion to change, the numbers to be better.  They didn't want the set's feel to change for them.  If I understand it correctly.

 

That's a fair complaint.  Sets live or die by feel.  That's why so many people play SS and Empathy still even though they suck.  If you made Emp good but changed it to be a shielding/debuffing set... people would hate that.  Even if it was now the best set (mechanically) in the game.

[Super Atom]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:16 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

The normal is a gimped version regardless of whether BU is active.

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That makes no sense. It's not a literal combo system where the damage is scaled based on it. the default non PF is the baseline, with PF giving it increases in specific areas.

[Infinitum]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:17 PM, ABlueThingy said:

I don't think anyone is disputing that it's a mechanical gain.  People are complaining because it changes the feel of the set for them in a way that negatively impacts their play experience.

 

Everyone knows EM is shit on live.  But people play it anyway because they like the FEEL of the set.   The complaint is that they only wanted the mechanical portion to change, the numbers to be better.  They didn't want the set's feel to change for them.  If I understand it correctly.

 

That's a fair complaint.  Sets live or die by feel.  That's why so many people play SS and Empathy still even though they suck.  If you made Emp good but changed it to be a shielding/debuffing set... people would hate that.  Even if it was now the best set (mechanically) in the game.

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The feel is there though, it feels like it did on live only better, all I have to do is use TF - which I would do anyway.

[Golden Azrael]

Just cleared 3 mob cave of Dev' Earth.  (More fun than a pylon test to me.)

 

This is def' quicker at mob thinning than the old lumbering EM.

 

And it BOOMs the hell out of slug bosses.  Great single target damage.

 

Every player can devise their own test.  I do.  There isn't one test to rule them all.

 

The old EM was a gimped grinder.

 

The new model is quicker.  More damaging.  More choice.  The new Energy Mech' brings and breathes new life into it.

 

Lots of fun choosing which way to go in combat.  

 

Azrael.

[Bopper]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:14 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

Correct. You can EITHER buff ET OR PC OR BS. Or you can choose to stay gimped on the powers you didn't choose to follow TF. What a great choice.

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The buff lasts for 15s. You can follow TF with other powers and still be able to buff one of those 3 other attacks. TF>EP>ET(fast) is my rotation of choice, but you could use Barrage or Whirling Hands if you prefer. But yes, you only get to buff one (or two if you crit) between TF attacks.

[Neogumbercules]

  On 10/25/2020 at 5:21 PM, macskull said:

I do wish Build Up granted Energy Focus too, so you weren't forced to wait until later levels to take advantage of it.

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100x this. Works great in Water Blast with Tidal Forces.

[Golden Azrael]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:18 PM, Infinitum said:

The feel is there though, it feels like it did on live only better, all I have to do is use TF - which I would do anyway.

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It has that old school feel.

 

But wayyyy better.

 

Faster.  Choicier.  More exhilarating.

 

Great combat feel to this.  This is a leading edge tank melee set now.

 

Azrael.

[Super Atom]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:17 PM, ABlueThingy said:

I don't think anyone is disputing that it's a mechanical gain.  People are complaining because it changes the feel of the set for them in a way that negatively impacts their play experience.

 

Everyone knows EM is shit on live.  But people play it anyway because they like the FEEL of the set.   The complaint is that they only wanted the mechanical portion to change, the numbers to be better.  They didn't want the set's feel to change for them.  If I understand it correctly.

 

That's a fair complaint.  Sets live or die by feel.  That's why so many people play SS and Empathy still even though they suck.  If you made Emp good but changed it to be a shielding/debuffing set... people would hate that.  Even if it was now the best set (mechanically) in the game.

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Which is a difference in opinion. It feels the same for me, but plays better. Asking me to use TF first to get an instant ET is not too much in my opinion.  As you said before, there has always been an optimal rotation and all that PF has done for me is change that optimal rotation.

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:18 PM, Super Atom said:

That makes no sense. It's not a literal combo system where the damage is scaled based on it. the default non PF is the baseline, with PF giving it increases in specific areas.

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You're really trying to state that the DPA of ET doesn't change when the animation time is reduced to 1.188 seconds?

[Super Atom]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:21 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

You're really trying to state that the DPA of ET doesn't change when the animation time is reduced to 1.188 seconds?

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Nope, It absolutely does. Which is why It's a benefit of a proc and not the baseline. ET didn't change too much from current outside of being your #2 in rotation to achieve that damage. It's not a big ask, it's not a big difference and i personally think people inflating this to be a big problem are just pouting. Optimal rotations are a thing on every set, if you're not doing them already you already have a problem from your perspective.

[Super Homer]

  On 10/25/2020 at 8:10 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

This is a false statement. My choice of attack chain is taken away. I can do TF/ET or self-gimp. I can do TF/BS or self-gimp. I can do TF/PC or self-gimp.

Self-gimping is not a choice. It's a punishment.

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I might be missing something here, so cope with me:

Total Focus basically has to be used as a gate-keeper for top performance (love it or hate it, i can understand that part) Recharges, base, 20s

Energy transfer now recharges in 10s

Energy Combo/focus/whatever lasts 15s

 

So... there seems to be plenty of room to do things like

TF > Energy Punch > Whirling Hands > Energy Transfer > Taunt > Whatever 

 

My point, I guess, is so long as you dont use a spender before Energy Transfer, you can have plenty of chains that dont necessary move from Total Focus to Energy Transfer directly. Energy Transfer and Total Focus recharge difference opens up room for squeezing in attacks in a different order, you dont need ET to start recharging ASAP because, by default, it recharges twice as fast, but you still wont want to use it before your next Total Focus. 

 

In fact, starts to sound to me that I might want other powers to start recharging even sooner, so maybe holding onto that Focus for an attack or two might even be ideal!

 

[ABlueThingy]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:18 PM, Infinitum said:

The feel is there though, it feels like it did on live only better, all I have to do is use TF - which I would do anyway.

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Not for them.  Their feel was based fairly heavily on the freedom to mix things up for freeform combos of fast moving glowing death punches.

 

Personally my feel is based on super charging myself with energy and dumping that into my foes face, which both live and test let me do.  Test more so because the set isn't garbo.  Also because I can more easily kill myself on test now which I really love.

 

But if I'm satisfied either way then my personal opinion is kinda moot.  I just want to see if there's a way we can make all parties happy.  If the set is going to have a combo system then I'd like to see it made so the old fans of EM can enjoy it somehow.  That's going to take compromise but it should be possible to improve things from where they are.

 

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:06 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

That's not how production cycles work.

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See, I remember those threads where we argued with Castle about stuff that was on the test server. And sometimes you and I were in agreement and sometimes not.

 

When, in the entire life-cycle of this game, have you ever seen significant changes happen to something that was on test based on player feedback? Oh sure, a couple of percentage points here a 1/4 of a second to an animation there, but a significant change like adding/removing a combo system?

 

Never.

 

It's going live like this and you know it is. The best we can do is hope to convince the devs to buff EM so that it is once again the King of Single Target Damage. Letting them know that some people really dislike combo systems, or at least don't want every power set to have them, is worthwhile. But we all know that they're not going to reverse all of the work they've done to EM on account of a few guys who don't sign their paychecks.

 

IMHO.

[Super Atom]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:25 PM, ABlueThingy said:

Not for them.  Their feel was based fairly heavily on the freedom to mix things up for freeform combos of fast moving glowing death punches.

 

Personally my feel is based on super charging myself with energy and dumping that into my foes face, which both live and test let me do.  Test more so because the set isn't garbo.  Also because I can more easily kill myself on test now which I really love.

 

But if I'm satisfied either way then my personal opinion is kinda moot.  I just want to see if there's a way we can make all parties happy.  If the set is going to have a combo system then I'd like to see it made so the old fans of EM can enjoy it somehow.  That's going to take compromise but it should be possible to improve things from where they are.

 

 

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You'll never make all parties happy, Its the curse of game development and i do not envy but very much support the homecoming devs in their quest to fix bad sets.

[ScarySai]

  On 10/25/2020 at 5:54 PM, Troo said:

Well you agree the faster Energy Transfer is nice, don't you?

You agree a quicker Total Focus is a benefit?

You agree that Stun was a largely skipped power? (I used it but understand if others didn't, slow and utility power)

Adjustments to Energy Power and Bone Smash are a nice surprise..

etc..

 

We probably agree about more than we disagree on.

 

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Perhaps we do, but I find your complaints about the "combo system" as you call it to be a stretch at best. It's a minor complaint for my stalker as I have to tf before every AoE, but otherwise not really noteworthy. 

 

I would like another way to generate focus on the condition it didnt come at the cost of current throughput.

[Bill Z Bubba]

  On 10/25/2020 at 9:23 PM, Super Homer said:

I might be missing something here, so cope with me:

Total Focus basically has to be used as a gate-keeper for top performance (love it or hate it, i can understand that part) Recharges, base, 20s

Energy transfer now recharges in 10s

Energy Combo/focus/whatever lasts 15s

 

So... there seems to be plenty of room to do things like

TF > Energy Punch > Whirling Hands > Energy Transfer > Taunt > Whatever 

 

My point, I guess, is so long as you dont use a spender before Energy Transfer, you can have plenty of chains that dont necessary move from Total Focus to Energy Transfer directly. Energy Transfer and Total Focus recharge difference opens up room for squeezing in attacks in a different order, you dont need ET to start recharging ASAP because, by default, it recharges twice as fast, but you still wont want to use it before your next Total Focus. 

 

In fact, starts to sound to me that I might want other powers to start recharging even sooner, so maybe holding onto that Focus for an attack or two might even be ideal!

 

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And that's why being forced into tf/ep/et/bs/ep is the new normal.

 

Notice the word forced.