Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Super Atom]

Just now, summers said:

If anything I'd like the Energy Focus mechanic to have more purpose. Right now it's very arbitrary - you will seemingly always TF -> ET while it'd be nice to have a more meaningful choice.

I could see that, though the increase in targets from PC is no joke on tanks man. Baseball punch the entire map

[summers]

Just now, Super Atom said:

I could see that, though the increase in targets from PC is no joke on tanks man. Baseball punch the entire map

That's true!

 

I was testing on my Brute and the short range meant it didn't really matter

[Replacement]

24 minutes ago, Troo said:

I kinda figured this is the direction it would go in.

 

Some folks don't like combo mechanic, more folks don't like the random combo mechanic. "Please don't make me stare at the power tray in order to play a set effectively"

I am quoting the same portion Infinitum quoted to help explain the overstatement for you.

 

Hype #1: insisting on calling this a combo mechanic.  You use this wording because it makes it sound more complicated than it is.  This is you saying something simple and factual but relying on connotation to make it sound like a large departure.

Hype #2: Declaring this wacky convoluted combo system requires the user to stare at the power tray.  I really don't need to say any more on that. 

[Troo]

40 minutes ago, Bopper said:

You can play this set effectively without any of the Energy Focus mechanics. Energy Focus is just icing on the cake. 

I can play the live set currently in an effective manner.

 

Eliminating the corpse blasting from the live version would be great. We don't truly get that benefit from the beta version without using Energy Focus.

 

I think we can do better than saying "it's optional" or "not required to play". Those are just as bad as "if you don't like it don't play it". We can do better. Especially with an existing power set.

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Troo

[M3z]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Yes ive gotten 1100+ on TF and 1400+ on ET  on my fire EM tank.

the damage number i quoted for greater psi blade was in pvp, im sure i can double/triple that number in pve

[Super Atom]

Just now, Nuke Leah said:

So your argument is that the math works for a proc mechanic and the math doesn't work for an even spread balance in the powerset as it stands.

 

I don't think that's true, but I'm not smart enough to argue it or the math, so I'll just withdraw here.  Glad you have a powerset you enjoy!  I'll just keep not playing energy melee, I guess it's not that big of a deal if the change still doesn't make the set worth playing to me.  There are a lot of powersets so there should be something for everyone, as long as they don't keep changing historically non-mechanic driven sets into mechanic-driven sets...

It's not overly complicated but still too much math to be honest, the damage formula is a trip.

 

Have you tried it though?

[Infinitum]

Just now, M3z said:

the damage number i quoted for greater psi blade was in pvp, im sure i can double/triple that number in pve

What AT?

[M3z]

Just now, Infinitum said:

What AT?

stalker

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, M3z said:

stalker

Those were tanker numbers.  I need to record my stalker numbers.

 

I'll get something for you soon.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Infinitum

[ScarySai]

I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but during our testing total focus from hide took a decent chunk out of @Monos King.

 

If I had to guess why it doesn't crit, Crushing uppercut has the combo system to kinda give it an excuse to hit that hard, total focus hits really hard and gives all these other benefits on top of that. Letting it crit at full power would be a bit crazy, not to mention would definitely reduce bargaining power on further improvements down the line.

 

The fact energy can pull as much as it is without any real crit reliance should say a lot about how horrifyingly strong it is. I love it.

 

Praetor White would be proud.

Edited October 25, 2020 by ScarySai

[Troo]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

I am quoting the same portion Infinitum quoted to help explain the overstatement for you.

 

Hype #1: insisting on calling this a combo mechanic.  You use this wording because it makes it sound more complicated than it is.  This is you saying something simple and factual but relying on connotation to make it sound like a large departure.

Hype #2: Declaring this wacky convoluted combo system requires the user to stare at the power tray.  I really don't need to say any more on that. 

It is a combo mechanic.

• We have to click one power to then do something with another power. Without the first we don't get the second. That's a combo mechanic.
• The set did not previous have a combo mechanic. Much less one that involves 5 powers?

Is there a term you would prefer?

 

I don't believe I used "wacky convoluted combo system". (I would have used 'hot mess', but we're not there yet)

• The 'chance for' triggers require the player to look for a cue that the combo mechanic is available.
  • Is there an audio cue I've missed.. no?
  • Maybe there is a message that pops up in the middle of the screen that we have disabled.. no?
  • So we have to look at the power tray
  • Help me out here if you know something I don't. (maybe my /rad will appreciate it, I just start swinging and sometime the right target gets hit.. 😞 )

Where is the overstatement?!

[AerialAssault]

I think the thing to take into account with Total Focus is not so much the power itself, it's that the follow-up can be devastating. Nine times out of ten, that will be Energy Transfer, which itself hits extremely hard. If Total Focus crit for the full critical damage amount, there may not even be an enemy to hit with Energy Transfer.

 

Buuuut .. that being said I would be interested to see what that would even look like, if just for one day on a certain beta server....

[jojogladco]

6 minutes ago, Troo said:

It is a combo mechanic.

• We have to click one power to then do something with another power. Without the first we don't get the second. That's a combo mechanic.
• The set did not previous have a combo mechanic. Much less one that involves 5 powers?

Is there a term you would prefer?

 

I don't believe I used "wacky convoluted combo system". (I would have used 'hot mess', but we're not there yet)

• The 'chance for' triggers require the player to look for a cue that the combo mechanic is available.
  • Is there an audio cue I've missed.. no?
  • Maybe there is a message that pops up in the middle of the screen that we have disabled.. no?
  • So we have to look at the power tray
  • Help me out here if you know something I don't. (maybe my /rad will appreciate it, I just start swinging and sometime the right target gets hit.. 😞 )

Where is the overstatement?!

There is float text above your character that tells you that you've stored focus and more float text when you use focus. 

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Super Homer said:

So... there seems to be plenty of room to do things like

TF > Energy Punch > Whirling Hands > Energy Transfer > Taunt > Whatever 

Yep you got it.

As long as you don't want to use Bone Smasher or stun anything. (folks that like to use the existing stuns when engaging multiple targets mid attack chain it's a change)

 

Squeezing two ETs in there seems maybe.. but they probably did the math to prevent that.

 

It's actually a bit strong right now and will likely get toned down.

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, jojogladco said:

There is float text above your character that tells you that you've stored focus and more float text when you use focus. 

Thank you. Is that something a player has to turn on? Is it a setting?

[AerialAssault]

4 minutes ago, jojogladco said:

There is float text above your character that tells you that you've stored focus and more float text when you use focus. 

In addition there's also a buff that appears on your buff bar.

 

And even though I just got done testing it, I think there's also red text that says "Energy Stored" beneath the buff bar, but I honestly can't remember.

[jojogladco]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

Thank you. Is that something a player has to turn on? Is it a setting?

I don't change anything from stock settings except adding some insp combine macros and it was just there for me in closed beta and here in open beta so I think it's default would be on, but I haven't looked to see if there is a setting which can be toggled off.

[Replacement]

@Homecoming, thank you so much for this change!  Here's some feedback:

 

Here's what I've played so far: 
Stalker: bad-ass.  I'm seriously concerned we may need to soften some numbers here.  I'm going to take another run through with this soon though and hopefully I'll have a better understanding of my thoughts here.  The big thing is on-demand crits play with the two final powers in very strong ways.

Tanker: This was fun, and I enjoyed hitting all of the things and not even noticing the HP hit of ET.

Scrapper: tbh, I found this a bit flimsy with a low-grade IO build.  The lower HP pool means that, even with ET hitting myself for less, it's still a more meaningful hit to your own health.

 

I have not played with a Brute.  So to summarize my experience so far, this whole set feels very powerful, but the 10-second base Energy Transfer is pretty punishing for low-end builds.  High-end builds and armor sets with more healing than bad guys won't notice, but I'm a bit concerned for the SR/EM Tanker I have parked on Live (yes, that would be an uphill battle even without ET...)

Edited October 25, 2020 by Replacement

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, AerialAssault said:

In addition there's also a buff that appears on your buff bar.

 

And even though I just got done testing it, I think there's also red text that says "Energy Stored" beneath the buff bar, but I honestly can't remember.

yeah the buff bars get a bit crazy..

[Saikochoro]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Those were tanker numbers.  I need to record my stalker numbers.

 

I'll get something for you soon.

My EM/Bio scrapper consistently hits for ~900 on even level mobs with ET.  I think it hits for 600-700 with TF. With buildup + guassians ET is up to ~1900 and TF is ~ 1500. 
 

I will have to double check with some more testing tonight though. 
 

Edit: I went in and tested again on EM/Bio scrapper hitting an even level mob. I have t4 musculature, t4 core degenerative, and t4 assault (not toggled on).  ET has hecatomb and TOD procs. TF has no damage procs. Offensive adaptation is on. 

 

ET no build up = 1250

ET + build up + guassians = 1915

 

TF no build up  = 838

TF + build up + guassians = 1402

 

Total focus did not crit with these tests. Since the crit is 28% I could see another 100-200 damage added to the TF numbers upon crit. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Infinitum]

17 minutes ago, Troo said:

It is a combo mechanic.

• We have to click one power to then do something with another power. Without the first we don't get the second. That's a combo mechanic.
• The set did not previous have a combo mechanic. Much less one that involves 5 powers?

Is there a term you would prefer?

 

I don't believe I used "wacky convoluted combo system". (I would have used 'hot mess', but we're not there yet)

• The 'chance for' triggers require the player to look for a cue that the combo mechanic is available.
  • Is there an audio cue I've missed.. no?
  • Maybe there is a message that pops up in the middle of the screen that we have disabled.. no?
  • So we have to look at the power tray
  • Help me out here if you know something I don't. (maybe my /rad will appreciate it, I just start swinging and sometime the right target gets hit.. 😞 )

Where is the overstatement?!

Go back and read.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Replacement said:

@Homecoming, thank you so much for this change!  Here's some feedback:

 

Here's what I've played so far: 
Stalker: bad-ass.  I'm seriously concerned we may need to soften some numbers here.  I'm going to take another run through with this soon though and hopefully I'll have a better understanding of my thoughts here.  The big thing is on-demand crits play with the two final powers in very strong ways.

Tanker: This was fun, and I enjoyed hitting all of the things and not even noticing the HP hit of ET.

Scrapper: tbh, I found this a bit flimsy with a low-grade IO build.  The lower HP pool means that, even with ET hitting myself for less, it's still a more meaningful hit to your own health.

 

I have not played with a Brute.  So to summarize my experience so far, this whole set feels very powerful, but the 10-second base Energy Transfer is pretty punishing for low-end builds.  High-end builds and armor sets with more healing than bad guys won't notice, but I'm a bit concerned for the SR/EM Tanker I have parked on Live.

I think brute is the AT that got the least out of the changes, but if a talented brute can get to their dmg cap it could get nutty.

[Replacement]

@Troo I apologize for not making that part more clear -- yes, there are visual cues everywhere so you'll know when EF is up without looking at your bar.  That's why that was being interpreted as an overstatement.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Hey everyone
 
Thank you for the feedback so far.
 
I completely understand that some players ardently dislike conditional mechanics, many of the early iterations to Energy Melee changes tried their best to avoid them, but in the end, Energy Transfer is a special mechanic power that is ridiculously hard to balance without a more elaborate approach.
 
For those concerned about other legacy sets, I can’t promise specifics, but I will do my best to avoid complex combos. Super Strength, Fiery Melee, Stone Melee, they won’t be getting combos. In the interest of full disclosure, Broad Sword might be getting a purely additive Parry focused mechanic, but that is in extremely early draft stages.
 
Now, I am not asking anyone to stop posting feedback, but agree to disagree, let others express their discontent and feedback, and focus on your own personal feedback, not theirs. It will make the job of going through everyone’s feedback much smoother.

 

[Super Atom]

6 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I think brute is the AT that got the least out of the changes, but if a talented brute can get to their dmg cap it could get nutty.

Really? haven't done too much with brutes yet. Surprised but welcomed, always good to see tanks pull ahead in a change.