Focused Feedback: Energy Melee Revamp

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

What are you babbling about? I stated that the the changes are a buff over live. Full stop.

 

I went from 4:30 pylon to 3:30 with zero changes using TF/BS/ET/BS. I'm down to 1:45 average on my em/bio scrapper on beta compared to 1:30 on my mace/bio on live.

Well see scrapper believe or not, is not as optimal on a Pylon test, but put it in mission saturation and it excels more.

 

Stalker on the other hand will eat your Warmace lunch.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Infinitum

[Super Atom]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

What are you babbling about? I stated that the the changes are a buff over live. Full stop.

 

I went from 4:30 pylon to 3:30 with zero changes using TF/BS/ET/BS. I'm down to 1:45 average on my em/bio scrapper on beta compared to 1:30 on my mace/bio on live.

 

Quote

The changes screw over what was a basic, functional set for a combo system that some of us freaking hate.

How?

 

Quote

I'll be choosing the roll with it and in some cases, it's going to be me not taking TF or ET just to avoid the combo system I neither wanted, think was wise, hate, and did what I could on the live forums to dissuade the devs from doing after the changes from closed beta got leaked.

How is just not using EF while still enjoying the other buffs any different from your current EM experience in which you may or may not have ET and TF currently, is what im asking.

 

 

I understand you think other buffs might have been better, i'm not contesting your opinion on that. I'm asking you, your current EM's right now how would it be any different if you just ignored the mechanic to what is there currently + the additional buffs.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Super Atom

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

That wasn't the reason.

Please expound. I figured the rationale was "hell, it costs HP to use, why make it cost end as well?"

Edited October 25, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[ABlueThingy]

15 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

This is a false statement. My choice of attack chain is taken away. I can do TF/ET or self-gimp. I can do TF/BS or self-gimp. I can do TF/PC or self-gimp.

Self-gimping is not a choice. It's a punishment.

 

Look, the changes are indeed a buff. Full stop.

The changes screw over what was a basic, functional set for a combo system that some of us freaking hate.

 

But we all know this is going live as is (or with minimal number alterations.) We can either roll with it or delete all of our EM users.

 

I'll be choosing the roll with it and in some cases, it's going to be me not taking TF or ET just to avoid the combo system I neither wanted, think was wise, hate, and did what I could on the live forums to dissuade the devs from doing after the changes from closed beta got leaked.

 

In other cases, I'll just use the TF/EP/ET/BS/EP ugly ass attack chain and live with it.

 

My only hope at this point is that devs listen and when deciding on how to "balance" other powerset changes that they avoid this mistake.

 

Do you think there's anything they could do with the set, assuming we're keeping the combo mechanic, to make the set more palatable for you(and everyone else who dislikes the new mechanic)?

 

If the mechanic is staying maybe there's a way to tweak it more to people's liking.  Maybe letting the player store up to three focus charges and having BU give you 3.  To cut down on the number of times you need to hit TF.  As long as you hit BU once every 3 times you use ET you wouldn't run out of Focus and wouldn't have to hit TF at all.

 

Personally I like the new mechanics I would be ok with that.  But I don't like the idea that so many of the old guard EM folk don't like it.

 

[ForeverLaxx]

Just now, Super Atom said:

Nope.

Yup.

See, I can do it too. Come off it already. We don't like it and we don't care that you do like it.

 

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

people ignoring the benefits of these changes

No one's ignoring the "benefits". The people upset, myself included, are upset that EM doesn't feel like EM anymore.

 

We're now being forced into a rote pattern laid out before us with no room for individualization or customization. It used to be that you could fire up EM any which way you wanted due to the fast animations and high damage on everything you hit with barring TF (and Whirling Hands, I guess). While it's true that that method of play is still "better" than it used to be, ignoring the mandated minigame puts you behind everyone else playing the set for no reason other than because you "want to suck for some reason".

 

It's no longer a build-your-own-chain like it used to be. You now must use Power 9 before Power 8 is worth it, or you must use Power 9 if you want Power 3 to do anything valuable. Why this is hard to understand, I have no idea. I have never liked enforced combat patterns that actively punish you for not engaging in them and I don't care if ignoring them after these changes still puts me "above" where I was before the changes because the set isn't good enough that way either.

[Bopper]

Everyone. This is a Focused Feedback thread. If you are not providing testing feedback, please stop. Move your suggestions and opinions to the appropriate forums. This has gone on long enough. 

 

Moderators, can we get this back on track please?

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Super Atom said:

How?

A basic set is a set that doesn't use combos. Adding combos makes it no longer a basic set.

 

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

How is just not using EF while still enjoying the other buffs any different from your current EM experience in which you may or may not have ET and TF currently, is what im asking.

Because I haven't enjoyed ET since the initial nerf. I do, but I hate it, just as I hate HAVING to use TF before ET to get it back to where it was supposed to be in the first damn place.

 

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I understand you think other buffs might have been better, i'm not contesting your opinion on that. I'm asking you, your current EM's right now how would it be any different if you just ignored the mechanic to what is there currently + additional buffs.

It will be different because the set will be different. An ST stun I never took now adds AoE to a set lacking AoE. An animation that was longed for is accessible but only if your play a certain way.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, ForeverLaxx said:

The point that you seem to consistently miss is not that it's suddenly "complicated", but that it's another introduction of needless fluff to a set that never needed it and many oldschool EM players never wanted. The real kick to the nads is that you don't get to play the set how you want like you used to -- now you must play EM how the devs designed it to be played if you want to be anywhere close to optimal.

 

You also give up that damage to utilize an AoE that many of us didn't ask for because we didn't want the set to suffer due to homogenization (and your single target suffers for it, which was the fear).

 

No one is arguing that the set doesn't perform better than it used to. It's obvious the set is stronger on paper and in practice. Trouble is, it's not Energy Melee in feel anymore and that's where many of us have a problem.

I agree.

 

Unfortunately, there are folks that will try and put words in your mouth or twist what you are saying. (it's possible I am not innocent of this, but it's likely accidental)

 

All we can do, regardless of opinion, is try and document as best we can what works / what doesn't. (work in progress for me)

I'm not perfect and can get sucked into stuff that isn't going to change their mind. Often it's not worth it.

 

Energy Melee didn't have a combo mechanic and some folks are trying to push adding one.

 

The combo mechanic feels like it is there as a punishment. Something to control the set from being too powerful.

Some folks can see that the combo mechanic doesn't need to be there to speed up some animations and make other adjustments, some can't or are unwilling to even entertain it. It's kind of lame.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Troo

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, ForeverLaxx said:

We're now being forced into a rote pattern laid out before us with no room for individualization or customization. It used to be that you could fire up EM any which way you wanted due to the fast animations and high damage on everything you hit with barring TF (and Whirling Hands, I guess). While it's true that that method of play is still "better" than it used to be, ignoring the mandated minigame puts you behind everyone else playing the set for no reason other than because you "want to suck for some reason".

Totally false.

 

There is optimal and there is accessible.

 

Not being optimal doesnt mean its not fantastic still.  

 

All you have to do is use TF which why the hell wouldnt you use it anyway, I'm hitting over 1100 pts of dmg with it on my tanker.

[Golden Azrael]

11 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Nope. I've repeatedly told people their criticism of an added mechanic is a valid complaint. My issue is when people (like you again) use imaginary people to fluff their argument.  Your strawmans don't interest me about drastic changes nobody made.

 

As is, EF is an optional mechanic when compared to live HC EM. If you ignore it, it plays -exactly- the same but with added buffs and faster recharges and on occasion you may get an instant ET instead of a normal duration one. Stun was a terrible power, i won't argue it with you.

Stun used to have a stylish animation.  But it sucked.  A single target stun was a waste of time.

 

Now we have AoE stun with dam and stacking with WHs.

 

It's an AoE revelation.  Energy is now a leading Tank Melee set.  Rescued from being alone, unloved and uncared for.

 

POWuRR CRRRRRASH!!!!!!  What a fab' power that is.  Crashtastic!!!  It elevates the entire set!!!

 

This combo mechanic is super juicy to play.  Fervour!!!  Excitement!!!!  POWER!!!!  HOW TO SPEND THE POWURRRR!

 

You can play it.  Or not.  But I'll be playing this to death!!!

 

The KING IS DEAD!  LONG LIVE THE KING!!!!

 

Azrael.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Golden Azrael

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, ABlueThingy said:

Do you think there's anything they could do with the set, assuming we're keeping the combo mechanic, to make the set more palatable for you(and everyone else who dislikes the new mechanic)?

 

If the mechanic is staying maybe there's a way to tweak it more to people's liking.  Maybe letting the player store up to three focus charges and having BU give you 3.  To cut down on the number of times you need to hit TF.  As long as you hit BU once every 3 times you use ET you wouldn't run out of Focus and wouldn't have to hit TF at all.

 

Personally I like the new mechanics I would be ok with that.  But I don't like the idea that so many of the old guard EM folk don't like it.

 

No. I don't combo systems.

The current system already gives me the ability to set up TF for a 50+% chance to crit thus giving me focus on ET and BS. I still hate it.

 

I get that a whole crapload of you are perfectly happy with this. You're the vast majority which is why I state this will be going live as is.

 

I'm only attempting to make it quite clear to the devs that if they fark with other powersets in this manner, I'm gonna be one pissed off devil.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Troo said:

Energy Melee didn't have a combo mechanic and some folks are trying to push adding one

Its no different than pre nerf when we would squeeze 2 ETs in one BU cycle to max dmg.

 

Back then THAT was the ONLY way.  Now we have more flexibility than that with these changes.

 

Every power is improved and you STILL get old ET back.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Everyone. This is a Focused Feedback thread. If you are not providing testing feedback, please stop. Move your suggestions and opinions to the appropriate forums. This has gone on long enough. 

 

Moderators, can we get this back on track please?

I would LOVE for you to explain how my feedback has in any way not been on topic.

[Golden Azrael]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

No. I don't combo systems.

 

 

Just click the ones you like.  You won't be underserved by doing that.

 

Yes.  I do like combo systems.

 

Azrael.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

All you have to do is use TF

And that's the problem. I'm being told what I have to do in order to get the changes that should just be active all the time. I'm being told how to play the set, in a set that never used to work that way. It's no longer the EM I knew and is now an imitation with rules, hierarchies, and priorities shoved in to get in the way. It's no longer the set I picked.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

I would LOVE for you to explain how my feedback has in any way not been on topic.

Its just restating your opinion over and over again that the change doesnt meet your style preference.

 

Doesn't demonstrate how these changes will or will not work.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Golden Azrael said:

 

Just click the ones you like.  You won't be underserved by doing that.

 

Yes.  I do like combo systems.

 

Azrael.

Except for the part where you're completely wrong. I click what I like, I get an ET animation damn near 3X what I'd get without going TF/ET. I click PC and I'll hit far less enemies than if I go TF/PC.

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I would LOVE for you to explain how my feedback has in any way not been on topic.

You're not everyone

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, ForeverLaxx said:

And that's the problem. I'm being told what I have to do in order to get the changes that should just be active all the time. I'm being told how to play the set, in a set that never used to work that way. It's no longer the EM I knew and is now an imitation with rules, hierarchies, and priorities shoved in to get in the way. It's no longer the set I picked.

You would use it ANYWAY.  If you didn't use it - THAT would be self gimping.  Especially with the lowered animation.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Its just restating your opinion over and over again that the change doesnt meet your style preference.

 

Doesn't demonstrate how these changes will or will not work.

So feedback threads are now relegated to shut up and accept the buff regardless of how we got there.

 

Ok.

[Infinitum]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

So feedback threads are now relegated to shut up and accept the buff regardless of how we got there.

 

Ok.

I didn't say that. 

 

But

 

It is a buff

 

It is an improvement over pre nerf with or without the focus

 

The rest is You getting ticked you didnt get your way with the style of the change.

[ForeverLaxx]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You would use it ANYWAY.  If you didn't use it - THAT would be self gimping.  Especially with the lowered animation.

It doesn't matter if I'd click the button anyway because it's telling me the order in which I must click my buttons if I want the set to perform at a level it should without having everything laid out in a specific order of activation.

 

That's the problem and it's clear you'll never understand. I know that EM is not going to be changed back to a combo-less system because someone on the dev team must think that ET deserves to be awful unless we engage with his inane minigame, and I'll still play the set because I value concept more than numbers, but that DOES NOT mean that I like what the set has become. Much like the original nerfs to EM, people still played it while complaining about it and I'll remain in that camp.

 

Energy Melee is no longer Energy Melee to me. It's now just PomPom Punchies, but only if you punch in the proper order.

[Troo]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Totally false.

 

There is optimal and there is accessible.

 

Not being optimal doesnt mean its not fantastic still.  

 

All you have to do is use TF which why the hell wouldnt you use it anyway, I'm hitting over 1100 pts of dmg with it on my tanker.

Would you feel better if folks put "It feels" in front of their take? 

 

And since I and others agree that it feels constrained with the combo mechanic. How would you like us to word it?

 

"Totally false" is an absolute. It's pretty easy to disprove an absolute.

 

 

[ABlueThingy]

1 minute ago, ForeverLaxx said:

And that's the problem. I'm being told what I have to do in order to get the changes that should just be active all the time. I'm being told how to play the set, in a set that never used to work that way. It's no longer the EM I knew and is now an imitation with rules, hierarchies, and priorities shoved in to get in the way. It's no longer

the set I picked.

 

To be fair, there was always an optimal attack chain.  There was always a "Best" way to play and anyone who deviated from that was playing sub-optimally. The combo system just codifies it, spells out what is most optimal.

 

This game has always had the illusion of choice.  You could always choose to play sub-optimally. The game just didn't spell out for you which rotations and combos were more effective.  The more modern powersets are doing that.  Like StJ and Staff and now EM.  By making codifying it into the rules of the set, giving you specific buffs and debuffs depending on how you use it, the game tells you which way is the most effective.

 

But it didn't invent that.  If you removed the combo system from StJ or Staff there would still be an invisible "Correct" rotation that put out the best damage.

 

As multiple people have pointed out there is actually a "Correct" rotation for EM on live.  That's the secret combo system that already exists.  These powers work better then anything else when used in this order.  But unless you look up out of game information you wouldn't know what was the best rotation.  You'd have to guess because the Live game doesn't spell it out.

 

 

 

[Golden Azrael]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Except for the part where you're completely wrong. I click what I like, I get an ET animation damn near 3X what I'd get without going TF/ET. I click PC and I'll hit far less enemies than if I go TF/PC.

It sounds like you're completely wrong.

 

It's gone from being a slow dull 'jewel' of the EM crown to something  faster!  Harder hitting.  More often.  

 

Just hammered 4 Dev' Earth Slug Bosses.  TF, Quick ET....Slow ET...TF ET...MIGHT INCARNATE!!!!!

 

OOhhhhhHH!HH!H!H!H.  All manner of BOOM!!!!

 

This is raucously good fun.!!!!

 

Who cares about specific attack chains when you can choose a random beauty each time.  This is a gdn sweet shop of a Tank Melee set.  

 

Such variety.  GO AOE?  Stack it?  Or Slow or fast boom!!!!!  

 

I@ve never whooped the Dev' Earth this much before.  And enjoyed it!!!

 

HC just gave EM for Tanks the BIG JOY!!!

 

Azrael.