Can we talk about Ice Armor?

[BassAckwards]

Hey guys!

I guess this is only my 3rd post on these forums. I'm more of a reader and lurker.

 

I wanted to suggest some changes to Ice Armor and get peoples feedback. It was my favorite armor back on live and still is here on homecoming, something about it just looks so cool to me. So much so that I recreated my main character from live with the same costume and everything.

 

Ice Armor, however, continues to be the least or second least played armor set on any Archetype (Tanker, Scrapper, Stalker, Brute, and Sentinel).

 

And when you look at the actual survival numbers it definitely falls short compared to some of the other armor sets, especially the defense based sets.

 

My Suggestions are:

1.  [Wet Ice] currently gives 1% defense to S/L/F/C/E/Neg (Not Enhanceable) and 30% Res to Cold (Not Enhanceable). This power takes no enhancements except recharge and endurance reduction. Change the defense to somewhere between 3-5% and make it enchanceable. Then remove the Cold Resistance from this power. Having 120% Cold resist is pretty pointless and is probably the least encountered damage type in PvE.
   1. (a) This will make [Permafrost] a smarter choice as it will now be the only means to get you to cap for Cold along with the extra fire resist (12.5%) and slow resist (20%) it provides.
2. Give [Glacial Armor] somewhere between 5-10% Psi Defense enhanceable. This will put it more on par with other def and resistance sets. Making the set more viable in end-game content, even with just SO's or standard IOs.
3. Add a small -End debuff resistance and -Recov Debuff resistance to [Energy Absorption] to give a little protection from enemies that sap endurance.

 

Defense and Resistance stat comparisons between sets posted below.

 

Let me know what you think! Is this crazy? Do the utility powers included in Ice Armor make it where these buffs would be to much? I think something like this might have more people taking a look at Ice Armor. It's a really great set, but it seems a little old and neglected compared to some of the newer sets IMHO.

 

Thanks!

 

In my examples below I will be using all Tanker numbers, as these are the best case scenario. (Energy Aura modified to reflect tanker values if it were to be made available)

I will not include Toxic Resistance from any click heals, I will include the mez resistance powers in all of the power counts, of course some have def/res and some do not.

These are percentages at lvl 50 with no enhancements

 

Bio Armor not included because I can't see on Mid's how defensive adaptation effects the numbers.

Spoiler

 

Ice Armor: 4 Armor powers

Defense:

• 18% to S/L/E/N
• 1% to F/C

Resistance:

• 25% to Fire
• 120% to Cold (Capped at 90)

 

Shield Defense: 5 Armor Powers

Defense:

• 20% to all positions

Resistance:

• 15% to S/L/F/C/E/N/Toxic

 

Super Reflexes: 7 Armor Powers

Defense:

• 26% to all positions

Resistance:

• 0% (except for scaling damage resistance in dodge, agile, lucky to S/L/F/C/E/N as your HP gets lower)

 

Energy Aura: 6 Armor Powers (Using Tanker scaling)

Defense:

• 5% to Melee/Range/AoE/Psi
• 19% Neg
• 22% S/L
• 25% F/C
• 27.5% Energy

Resistance:

• 12.5% S/L/Neg/Toxic
• 22.5% Energy

 

Dark Armor: 4 Armor Powers

Defense:

• 5% to all types and Positions

Resistance:

• 20% Energy/Toxic
• 30% to S/L/F/C
• 40% Neg
• 50% Psi

 

Electric Armor: 4 Armor Powers

Defense:

• None

Resistance:

• 30% Neg
• 35% to S/L/F/C/Psi
• 85% Energy

 

Fire Armor: 3 Armor Powers

Defense:

• None

Resistance:

• 20% to Cold
• 30% to S/L/E/N
• 90% to Fire

 

Invulnerability: 7 Armor Powers

Defense:

• 11% with 1 target in range of invincibility to S/L/F/C/E/N

Resistance:

• 20% to F/C/E/N/Toxic
• 45% to S/L

 

Radiation Armor: 3 Armor Powers

Defense:

• None

Resistance:

• 7.5% Cold
• 15% Psi
• 30% S/L
• 35% Fire/Neg
• 45% Energy
• 50% Toxic

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by BassAckwards

[Razor Cure]

You forgot STone Armour (easy to do, lol). That get s a lot of Psi def (maybe the best in game?) but the set is a pile of crap. Literally.

Also most psi attacks (ok a decent amount) come with a Typed component too, so Ice Armour still has def to those (psi/smash attacks, etc). Is 5% psi def, for those pure psi attacks gonna make all that much difference? Thematically, it makes sense I think..you use Ice to defend yourself, and a psi attack goes right through and targets your mind.

[Razor Cure]

9 minutes ago, Nuke Leah said:

Perhaps we should look at balance AND theme rather than just theme as the basis of the powers?

Sadly..that is impossible. People will NEVER agree eye to eye on theme or balance. Far too late to change the main themes of powersets!

I guess the psi hole was far less of an issue years back. Now with the IDF around, there are way more psi attacks in play.

[Razor Cure]

Feedback and suggestions sure..but what percentage of suggestions GET used in game? I have seen some amazing ideas, and had some myself that I totally think the game NEEDS, but no one ever agrees on one thing. Look at the recent Energy Melee changes on Test..people are still gonna say that prefer the old version, no matter what.

Sure it would be nice if Ice had psi def..but does it need it? May as well say it would be nice if Invul had Psi Res. Both things go against the theme (as I see it, and arguably the original design).

[Solarverse]

15 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

 but no one ever agrees on one thing.

And even worse, some people are so hell bent on nothing changing, they will even go to lengths to use character assassination attempts instead of logically discussing the idea. Suggestion forums has a way of bringing out the worst in people...and I believe it's because people feel personally attacked if you request to change something they don't want changed. The suggestion forums can be very tricky sometimes.

[Haijinx]

Ice is pretty good on tankers, but that's probably due to their high base numbers hiding its flaws a bit. 

 

Probably could stand a slight improvement now that its been proliferated.  

 

 

[Solarverse]

33 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Ice is pretty good on tankers, but that's probably due to their high base numbers hiding its flaws a bit. 

 

Probably could stand a slight improvement now that its been proliferated.  

 

 

The main hole in Ice (even as a Tank) is the Energy/Negative Energy and Psionic Resistances. Because the set is primarily a Defensive Set that covers damage types rather than distance types. So you end up spending more focus on building defense to your lacking defense or you end up trying to split it up to bring up your resistance to compensate for the severe lack of resistance in the set. The set could use some love...much needed love.

[Razor Cure]

3 hours ago, Nuke Leah said:

You seem very focused on what can't be done and what has been done rather than on what could be done.  Let's stay on topic and find out what your suggestions are?

I havent played Ice enough to really have suggestions. But at no point was I saying anything cant be done. I was saying Ice should not get Psi defence..just because. We have already agreed most psi attacks have a Typed component. See below:

 

3 hours ago, Nuke Leah said:

As most DO have a second component (S/L) like you say though, it shouldn't be a big deal to give this typed defense addition, right, since it doesn't matter anyway?

..If it doesnt matter anyway, why bother doing it?

You also go on (fairly) about how any def matters, which it does. With IOs and pool powers, ice can get to around 15% to psi (2 uniques, weave, stealth, manuvers)..which again, you said it..aint nothing. It is a HUGE increase in fact, to the literally no psi def ice starts with.

 

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

The main hole in Ice (even as a Tank) is the Energy/Negative Energy and Psionic Resistances. Because the set is primarily a Defensive Set that covers damage types rather than distance types. So you end up spending more focus on building defense to your lacking defense or you end up trying to split it up to bring up your resistance to compensate for the severe lack of resistance in the set. The set could use some love...much needed love.

The set could use Love..or.. shoring up holes? Should every set be lacking holes full stop? Why should a Defence based set also get resists? Aside from Granite armour (which has huge issues) and some sets like WP, Invul (resist and def..but again, no psi) most sets do one or the other. Look at SR and Nin..two defence based sets with next to no resists (normally). Should those suddenly get resists too?

In summary..not every set needs to do everything awesomely.

[Solarverse]

27 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

I havent played Ice enough to really have suggestions. But at no point was I saying anything cant be done. I was saying Ice should not get Psi defence..just because. We have already agreed most psi attacks have a Typed component. See below:

 

..If it doesnt matter anyway, why bother doing it?

You also go on (fairly) about how any def matters, which it does. With IOs and pool powers, ice can get to around 15% to psi (2 uniques, weave, stealth, manuvers)..which again, you said it..aint nothing. It is a HUGE increase in fact, to the literally no psi def ice starts with.

 

The set could use Love..or.. shoring up holes? Should every set be lacking holes full stop? Why should a Defence based set also get resists? Aside from Granite armour (which has huge issues) and some sets like WP, Invul (resist and def..but again, no psi) most sets do one or the other. Look at SR and Nin..two defence based sets with next to no resists (normally). Should those suddenly get resists too?

In summary..not every set needs to do everything awesomely.

I can tell you this much. Out of all my Tanks who are fully geared and have been min maxed to Death, my Ice Tank has the weakest stats of all of them. My WP Tank out classes the Ice Tank in almost every way. My Elec Tank does the same as well as my Invuln Tank. This is the only reason I am in favor of giving some love to Ice Tanks. I won't argue in favor too much, I just wanted to get that out there though in response to your question.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:

The set could use Love..or.. shoring up holes? Should every set be lacking holes full stop? Why should a Defence based set also get resists? Aside from Granite armour (which has huge issues) and some sets like WP, Invul (resist and def..but again, no psi) most sets do one or the other. Look at SR and Nin..two defence based sets with next to no resists (normally). Should those suddenly get resists too?

In summary..not every set needs to do everything awesomely.

Here you go, I don't like making statements without backing them up with some type of evidence. Here are my stats from Mids since they mimic what I see in game. I am using Mids to show evidence because it's a lot cleaner and easier to see. However, I can assure you they mimic my stats in game. Take a look at these Min/Maxed builds for Ice, Invuln and WP. You may or may ot still feel Ice is fine as is which is perfectly okay, I just wanted to give the stats to you so that you could see for yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Solarverse

[Greycat]

5 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Feedback and suggestions sure..but what percentage of suggestions GET used in game?

... what percentage *should* be? I mean, come on - there are some *real* stinkers that show up. Then there's the question of if you're looking at suggestions as a whole (IOW post by post) or general groupings ("Do this to force fields" and "Nerf Regen.") Anyway...

 

I'm slowly working up a remake of my ice tank from live. I'm not a numbers person, but I don't recall it feeling particularly weak. Breezing through the OP -

 

One thought is regarding the "Ice isn't played much" bit. There *can* be reasons besides that - theme, for instance. Lack of comic/movie characters with ice armor that inspire people to make one. And the "But the graphics cover my costume" - which, they do, even on minimal FX. You're still looking frosty. It may not really be based on set performance.

 

Ice, to me, should maintain an ice "Feel." Thermal (hot *and* cold, and associated effects) resistance - and the slowing (and -rch) applied to surrounding foes. Defense and resistance both do make sense for it. But - again for the OP's suggestion - what about ice says "I am mentally resistant to your control/damage attempts?" Smashing or lethal? Sure, gotta make it through the actual ice, after all. And again thermals make sense. But what about ice is psionic-defending or psionic-resistant? "M'friggin 'nads are frozen and it's distracting me from your brain-bombs?" 🙂  About the only way I'd see it getting added on is as an aftereffect from, say, granting/increasing the amount of absorb in the set (to represent attacks having to chip through the ice to get to the chewy center - IE, you - underneath.)

 

(Granted, hibernation's ... eh. But I don't really ahve answers for that, other than "well, it gives me some flexibility in picking something else up." It's one of the few T9s I agree with the "meh" on... and I *like* Rise of the Phoenix, by comparison.)

 

Anyway. That's how I see it from a theme and character standpoint. I'll let the rest of you math at each other.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Greycat

[Solarverse]

12 minutes ago, Greycat said:

... what percentage *should* be? I mean, come on - there are some *real* stinkers that show up. Then there's the question of if you're looking at suggestions as a whole (IOW post by post) or general groupings ("Do this to force fields" and "Nerf Regen.") Anyway...

 

I'm slowly working up a remake of my ice tank from live. I'm not a numbers person, but I don't recall it feeling particularly weak. Breezing through the OP -

 

One thought is regarding the "Ice isn't played much" bit. There *can* be reasons besides that - theme, for instance. Lack of comic/movie characters with ice armor that inspire people to make one. And the "But the graphics cover my costume" - which, they do, even on minimal FX. You're still looking frosty. It may not really be based on set performance.

 

Ice, to me, should maintain an ice "Feel." Thermal (hot *and* cold, and associated effects) resistance - and the slowing (and -rch) applied to surrounding foes. Defense and resistance both do make sense for it. But - again for the OP's suggestion - what about ice says "I am mentally resistant to your control/damage attempts?" Smashing or lethal? Sure, gotta make it through the actual ice, after all. And again thermals make sense. But what about ice is psionic-defending or psionic-resistant? "M'friggin 'nads are frozen and it's distracting me from your brain-bombs?" 🙂  About the only way I'd see it getting added on is as an aftereffect from, say, granting/increasing the amount of absorb in the set (to represent attacks having to chip through the ice to get to the chewy center - IE, you - underneath.)

 

Anyway. That's how I see it from a theme and character standpoint. I'll let the rest of you math at each other.

My Ice Tank plays fine for the most part. It's the end game content that sets it behind the others. I mean, look at the stats posted. Warface has some really great stats. However, vs LR or vs some of the tougher end game content, he is a hell of a lot more work to sustain than any of the other Tanks that I play in general. The lack of Energy Resist, the less than maxed out S/L Resist, the lesser Regen, the very poor Psi Resist or Defense really hurts the set. And against LR. Obviously I am not going to say the set is impossible, but I do tend to grow tired of the, "Ah man, an Ice Tank? Can you get another Tank for this TF?" comments. Those comments are not just made for no reason. Furthermore an Ice Tank is extremely tough to build...and this build is Min/Maxed to its fullest potential. You need to keep in mind that most people simply are not going to be min/maxing the way I have mine....and I still feel the gaping holes in the build. If nothing changes, I will live, but I sure as hell won't complain if the set is re-balanced.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Solarverse

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Nuke Leah said:

All of your points are valid and I see where you're coming from.  How about a different change then, on theme?  Like since Hoarfrost specifically talks about absorbing things, add an absorb shield to the HP buff and change the recharge?  Or maybe give one of the other powers an absorb proc like permafrost, that might work like a blaster sustain does by adding small absorbs?  Or some other on-theme change?  Would you feel like that is worth exploring, or are you certain that your Ice Tank is just as strong as others and doesn't need any work done?

 

I did say I'm still working it up - I don't have a feel to if it's as strong or not. And I *did* mention absorbs as being sensible (to me) as far as the theme or feel of the set.

[Greycat]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 I do tend to grow tired of the, "Ah man, an Ice Tank? Can you get another Tank for this TF?" comments.

... Honestly, if I got a comment like that, I'd just one star the person saying it, tell them "no, but you can," drop the team and find a different one that's doing it for fun.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Greycat said:

... Honestly, if I got a comment like that, I'd just one star the person saying it, tell them "no, but you can," drop the team and find a different one that's doing it for fun.

I'm not very hip to Absorbs, but do Defenses and Resists calculate *before* the Absorb Shield takes a hit?

[Haijinx]

Compare perhaps an Energy Aura Brute to an Ice Armor Tank and the problem is probably more clear.

 

 

[Dragon Crush]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I'm not very hip to Absorbs, but do Defenses and Resists calculate *before* the Absorb Shield takes a hit?

I know it'll check defense first, and I'm 99.5% sure it'll check resists as well before hitting absorb shield. I'm almost certain it's just extra HP over the cap.

 

Haven't played with ice armor beyond the teens (and that's just alt-itus, not a dislike of the set) but from the outside it doesn't look too bad. It could likely use *something* but between base def/resists,   just realized some of the defensive tricks I were attributing to it were part of ice melee, not armor. Maybe add more -recharge to icicles and have hoarfrost pulse absorb 30 and 60 seconds after clicking it... always wanted more differences between the various dull pains.

[Razor Cure]

19 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Take a look at these Min/Maxed builds for Ice, Invuln and WP.

*looks*

I know I *did* talk about Ice benefiting from the +def and res IOs (and indeed any IOs)..but those 3 builds you posted are all tricked out to hell. Not quite a fair comparison, when Wp (easily the best combo def/res/regen) gains so so much from IOs. In my experience, I have seen many many tanks faceplant vs LR, ones with no IOs and ones with loads.

Sure, Titan Weapons is being sorta nerfed due to its tricked out performance (I say sorta, because the changes look to be helping non IOd builds too)..but should that happen in every case? If WP and Invul on tanks is so good, we better nerf them back to the performance of Ice!

Or..improve Ice in some way. Which I was never against..just against giving it non themeatic stuff (in my view of the theme of course).

[Solarverse]

So one thing I have noticed is that you cannot slot Wet Ice for Defense, even though it grants Defense to all. I think one thing that would help (not the only thing mind you since Ice Armor's main issue is the huge gaping hole in resistance) is to grant Wet Ice with a bit higher Defense to all, like 5%, make it to where you can slot it for Defense and give it more than just 30% Resist to Ice damage (which it doesn't need) but give it a +12% Resist to Lethal/Smashing and Energy/Negative Energy (nonslottable) to go with it.

 

Another thing that hurts the set is that since it is primarily a Defensive set, it fails when going up against anything that stacks -Defense. Wet Ice really needs more than just 17.3% Resist (and this is at level 50) to -Defense Debuffs. That number needs to double along with making any Defense Enhancements you slot in to it add to the -Defense Debuff Resist.

 

Sorry to Necro this thread, but I hate creating new threads when threads like it already exist...this helps to keep threads similar consolidated.

[Megajoule]

As I recall, the reason you can't slot Wet Ice for Def is that the amount of Def it provides is extremely small, and letting people think that they could turn that small value into one that's actually significant is what some people in game design call "a trap" (also "false hope", etc).  Best to close off that option entirely rather than letting them pour time and slots down a hole.