New to Kheldians, could use some info

[TheGentlemanGhostronaut]

I've played CoX on and off since its launch, but despite dipping my toe into pretty much everything the one thing (two things?) I never touched was the Kheldian archetypes, they just seemed so complicated.

 

I know that they each have three forms, but I don't really know much else.  Could someone help break them down for me?

What's the difference between Peacebringer and Warshade?

What are the three forms?

Can you go with just one or do you need all three?

With so many powers how do you go about slotting?

[Gulbasaur]

What's the difference between Peacebringer and Warshade?

 

PB's are flashy. WS's are smokey. PB's have flight, an ally heal and more melee options. WS's have teleports and more control options. PB's are quite self-sufficient and therefore more consistent. WS's use enemies to buff up, which means they're less consistent but have higher highs and lower lows (more enemies = better).

 

What are the three forms?

 

Human, which is roughly speaking a sentinel with some extra tricks. Nova, which is a flying blasty squid. Dwarf, which is a giant tank lobster.

 

Can you go with just one or do you need all three?

 

You can pick one, two or three. A bit of an issue is that the forms start out strong but don't really grow any stronger. Peacebringer slightly lends itself better to being human-only if you're worried about min-maxing, but it's certainly possible (and quite enjoyable) to play tri-form... triform PB's often flip between Nova and Human for damage and drop into Dwarf to wait out control effects. Warshade can stack buffs in Dwarf and Human form then flip into nova for extra damage.

 

With so many powers how do you go about slotting?

 

With difficulty... it's certainly not an easy ride.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[mathemagic]

Differences?

PBs play a little more like a standard hero. Good blasts, good melee, good heals, self buffs.  WSs are more different. Everything depends on having enemies around them. Buffs, recovery, pets, they all need enemies, alive and dead. Which sometimes leads to a very tense, on the edge, playstyle. 

 

There are several good guides and sample builds scattered about here on the forum pages. I would suggest a first time Kheldian start as a tri-former. Nova, though squishy, is just too good to pass up as a lower level offensive force. And dwarf gives much needed defense and protection. Later, once you know your powers and play style, you can respec into whichever way you want to go.

[Ausseke]

 I am glad to see more and more people playing or getting into Kheldians. 

 

We are the jack of all , master of none ( well we are not meant to be 😛 ) .  Even to this day I still think the Live Dev's , don't really know what they unleashed, and I for one am grateful to play this AT. 

 

I play a WARSHADE !!!  a tri-form.  And let me tell you , it is a complex AT. I can do some crazy things with it but, it is a focused build and my binds thought out.  The downside? I need bodies, more bodies, hey santa I was kinda good so give me bodies, ect.  For me it had a learning curve, and it was a big one. Then one day I just had that " Oh this is how to play this AT " moment.  Slotting will drive you crazy until you figure out what you want to do with your toon, then it will just give you headaches trying to fit everything in  😛  

 

And now to talk about the other kheldian.  For ME, I think a PB is just a WS with training wheels. I am NOT saying they are bad or don't have there place, I just fall asleep playing one.

 

My point it , try them out and don't give up .  We are here to help

[Six-Six]

Hey Ghost, I'm just slightly ahead of you... But not by much.

 

I tried my first PB some time ago, and what was mentioned above seems fairly accurate. They're pretty much like Sentinels with a few extra talents. The tri form is a bit daunting, but from what I hear, your PB won't reach its full potential without it. Mine was only human form.

 

I am learning tri form now with a L20 WS. And it's not that complicated. The trick is to have keybinds and macros that bring up a specific tray of powers for each particular form. Once you get used to the switching aspect (timing when to use which form) each form becomes simpler as they only have about 3 or 4 attacks. There are a few very helpful guides to walk you through it. (Can't link them right now since I'm on my phone). 

 

Enjoy your Kheld. 😊

[Timeshadow]

Welcome to the fold! 😄

 

I'm an old hand when it comes to Khelds.  My main on live was a PB (That I recreated here on Homecoming) and my namesake is a WS.  I've logged a lot of hours playing both ATs and I've built several variants.  I even wrote a Peacebringer guide (Check my signature).

 

As others have said, the main difference between the two HEATs (Hero Epic ATs) is their playstyle.  PBs are self-contained, meaning the effectiveness of their powers doesn't vary based on environmental conditions.  WS, OTOH, are dependent on having enemies (Alive or dead) around in order to fuel their key abilities.  That leads to WS having a higher skill cap and performance ceiling, while PBs sacrifice some top end performance for more consistent output.

 

You can build either flavor of Kheld as a TriForm (My preferred and recommended type), a BiForm (Human + Nova or Dwarf), or a Human-only.  For a total novice, I'd recommend a Human-only PB as its the closest to the standard ATs (The Sentinel comparison is pretty accurate).  If you decide to use your forms, you definitely need to know how to slot the powers they offer and how to use keybinds for efficiency.  I cover some of that in my guide but everybody's binds are a little bit different. 

In terms of build goals, the #1 thing is getting enough +Recharge so the Tier 9 power in the secondary is perma.  For PBs that's Light Form and for WS it's Eclipse.  Following the nature of the ATs, LF doesn't require enemies to get its full effect and comes with a mitigated crash (Half your HP and Endurance).  Eclipse's effect stacks based on the number of living enemies it hits and has no crash (I think you need 9 stacks to max it out but it's been a while so forgive me if that's wrong).  Both powers cap your Resistance to all damage except Psionics so you can basically ignore incoming hits while you blow things up with cosmic power.  Once you've got them perma'd you can focus on whatever else strikes your fancy build-wise.

Again, my PB guide is in my signature.  If you'd prefer to run a WS, I recommend checking out the old guide by Dechs Kaison, The MFing Warshade.  Dated as it is, it's still one of the definitive guides on how to build, bind, and play the darker side of Khelds.  Enjoy!  

[BurtHutt]

I really like Khelds. I thought I liked the Warshade but he relies way too much on enemies/bodies. This becomes a big issue when you're down to the final boss (AV, GM etc) and no minions around. Otherwise the Warshade is a lot of fun. So, I went to Peacebringer and he might be my fave toon - he's certainly up the list. The PB doesn't require enemies to siphon from like the WS so he's way more self-sufficient and can work in any situation.

 

Those, to me, are the key difference. Yes, the play-style is also very different and I enjoy both. They're definitely a little more complex and that might be why I enjoy them. Oh, these toons are definitely not overpowered but they can be built in a way that makes them pretty effective! 

[Gulbasaur]

On 11/2/2020 at 4:20 AM, Ausseke said:

And now to talk about the other kheldian.  For ME, I think a PB is just a WS with training wheels. I am NOT saying they are bad or don't have there place, I just fall asleep playing one.

Hah, I viewed it the other way round - a WS is a PB with extra steps. I mained a PB on live (when I got to 50) and started off on one on HC and have a lot of love for them (although they have fallen hard following the Power Creep Wars). 

 

I'd say it's more like brutes vs stalkers - if you just want to run in and hurr durr smash smash long-day-at-work-I-just-wanna-relax then peacebringers are pretty good. They are a satisfying AT to play and I really like the whole vibe. If you want to have to actually think a little bit about how you play, then warshades are excellent. 

 

The ultimate goal of playing the game is to enjoy playing the game. If you want "old reliable" then peacebringers/brutes/brutes are good archetypes. If you want more work for more rewarding gameplay (in my opinion) then warshades/stalkers are great. 

 

They're different ATs with different playstyles that appeal to different player mentalities. 

[MetalSiryn]

I'm just really getting into the Kheldians myself, but I /DO/ remember that Kheldians get a very unique enemy that I should make a note of: The Proton soldier.

 

The Proton Soldier can drop a Kheldian, no matter the form, in two shots.

 

Most parties, upon seeing the proton soldier, will likely focus fire on the Proton soldier until he goes down, much like someone would for a sapper, only the proton enemies are less numerous.  But I figured I should say something here for the new people so they're not discouraged, like I was, when I played Kheldians before, and ran into this unique enemy.  In fact, when I ran into this enemy and couldn't get past him, I deleted my Kheldian and said 'never again'.

 

Kheldians are still an amazing AT, in my limited experience....just be wary soloing because of the above enemy.

[GM ColdSpark]

I'm a fan of Kheldians myself - Quants are the key enemy to watch for - you'll see them with their void rifles and learn to hate that sound. It's worth setting up a key bind to a) search for that mob type and b) alert your team to their presence so they can focus-fire / control it as a priority target.

 

Kheldian game-play I think is fun, it's an interesting mix of frenetic and tactical as you have to work a bit to get them to their best - but there are some awesome abilities that look and sound pretty cool too! Enjoy!

[siran]

I've heard people say that 'Peace bringers are training wheels'. I have to say I don't agree. I played my Warshade on live for years, and play here as well. It's good, and I enjoy playing it (it's higher veteran level than my PB) But... it needs bodies. It needs opponents. 

 

So in this game AOE is easy, groups are easy. The only hard content is archvillians and giant monsters, and Peacebringers (IMHO) are much more satisfying when playing against the hard content. Sure it's possible to 'go into a group of enemies, get buffed and fly back to bash the AV, and I've done that. But Peacebringers are extremely capable on their own

 

In a group I can offer a lot more as a peacebringer. Other people don't rate the heal, but many times I've been the only healer, and it's adequate.  It's on a 2 second cycle time, heals around a third to half most toons hit points. Just recently I was on an ITF as the only healer. We absolutely kicked butt and it was only on a couple of the fights that we even needed a healer... but when we needed it we really did. Perhaps as better players we could have avoided that, but with PUGs you get what you get. In the same vein: in a group the cosmic balance power is just better than the warshade equivalent (you get to do what the team is weak at). On big experienced groups this doesn't matter, but on PUGs when exemplaring (PBs and WSs both are great when exemplared) it can be great

 

I would say rather than 'training wheels'  that the peacebringer has a much higher floor, and a tiny bit lower ceiling. The ceiling only a tiny bit lower because at the end of the day all the WS's buffs can (and often are) be duplicated by a defender or by clicking a couple of inspirations. The PB's self heals are something the WS just struggles with in AV fights, and the intangiblity power allows the Peacebringer to do things the WS can only dream of. The only weakness of PB compared to WS is psi damage, and it's possible to effectively remove that weakness with IOs.. In addition the peacebringer has a lot more hps...

 

An offensive WS strength compared to PBs is 'fluffy'. I have seen people use  'fluffy' very effectively, but I'm not one of the people that can do that when I actually need them. It might be that if I could work out how to keep them alive in difficult content I would like them more. They are easy to summon and use in easy content, but easy content does need them. And again: fighting AVs ... if the fight goes on it's easy to not be able to get another fluffy without wasting a lot of time.

 

As for forms: I like all three. The dwarf is fantastic as a 'break free inspiration whenever I want it' and a 'eek it's going wrong, lets go dwarf and click the heal power'. The nova I only use when 'hunting' really. PB human form has good AOE with with the nuke, the second nuke (the seekers), the AOE smash and then some single target punching there isn't really a lot of need to use the nova. But I'm glad I've got it: when the baddies run away then it's great, when we are zooming around a zone looking for 'get 40 council' etc it's great. And in easy content it's good to just hover and blast

 

As the others have said , the keybinds are really important. It's important to be able to swap your trays and change form with a single key press. Especially things like 'going into dwarf because it's going bad'

 

If you want advice on which to try: take the 'training wheels' PB first. Both archetypes are complex but PBs are less complex

 

[Carnifax]

15 hours ago, siran said:

I have seen people use  'fluffy' very effectively, but I'm not one of the people that can do that when I actually need them. It might be that if I could work out how to keep them alive in difficult content I would like them more

Fluffy seems to still have the suicidal AI which Phantasm also has, that is they'll try and close to melee range. This'll get them toasted very quickly. 

 

I do think Warshades should have a "spawn a corpse" power personally for AV fights. Although I've no idea what you'd call it, where you'd put it or what it should look like. 

[Gulbasaur]

7 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

do think Warshades should have a "spawn a corpse" power personally for AV fights. 

"Here's one I made earlier". 

[Carnifax]

17 minutes ago, Gulbasaur said:

"Here's one I made earlier". 

Well call it a "Source" or something, make it look like a baby crystal and basically it's just a defeated corpse for you to (ab)use. 

[Gulbasaur]

1 minute ago, Carnifax said:

Well call it a "Source" or something, make it look like a baby crystal and basically it's just a defeated corpse for you to (ab)use. 

Nah. It should permanently equip that backpiece with a wicker basket with a hand flopping out so that everyone can see the extent of your... preparedness. 

 

"We're not evil," protested the Warshade. "We just carry round chunks of dead body so we can turn them into weapons. Recycling is good for the environment!" 

[Doomrider]

7 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Fluffy seems to still have the suicidal AI which Phantasm also has, that is they'll try and close to melee range. This'll get them toasted very quickly. 

 

I do think Warshades should have a "spawn a corpse" power personally for AV fights. Although I've no idea what you'd call it, where you'd put it or what it should look like. 

That would be very interesting to see Warshades get a power like that to address the limitations of their powers that require defeated enemies be targeted.
Fluffies going kamikaze into melee range is really frustrating. For a pet that has zero melee abilities, they really should not be entering melee range ever. So the more attention shone on this AI issue the better. 👍

[Omega Force]

I played a tri-form PB on live.  It was a slow, painful slog to 50, but once there it was amazing.  Alone, I would alpha strike the mob with nova's AOE, then shift to dwarf to weather their counter and thin the herd.  Shift to man to finish off a hard target then back to nova and swim to the next spawn.  In teams it was even better, because I could shift to respond to the flow of the battle.  If the tank was struggling, I could shift to dwarf and start taunting and pokevoking to spread out enemy attention.  If a teammate's hp was dropping fast, shift to man and top them off with a quick heal.  If everything was going smoothly, I'd shift to nova and help make the donuts.  I couldn't control the enemy better than a tank, didn't do as much damage as a blaster, or bring diverse support like a defender; but I could do a passable job at every role.  It was tactically the most fun character I had, and the one I missed the most when Paragon City fell.

 

It wasn't all roses and bubbles.  Leveling I'd end most fights low on hp in dwarf, if I won at all.  Words don't convey just how awful the trip was.  My main was a scrapper, so the oceans of mez my seafood encountered was a harsh surprise.  Gradually I began winning fights without dwarfing up.  Then 50, and incarnation and IO's, and I could win in nova.  I never really had enough slots for it all, but I could get by.  The most important thing was a bind to shift both form and tray at one press.  That allowed me to jump between the three and immediately begin using the powers I needed.

[Timeshadow]

On 11/17/2020 at 11:41 AM, MetalSiryn said:

The Proton Soldier can drop a Kheldian, no matter the form, in two shots.

Chiming back in to say this is incorrect.  Quantum and Void enemies can be a pain, especially before you have access to Dwarf form, but they're nowhere near as dangerous as this. 

 

PBs and WS both have ways to deal with them effectively.  For PBs, that's some combo of KB and damage.  On a WS, you can Hold or Stun them before applying...well, damage.  If you get caught off guard (Which you shouldn't because you have a bind that specifically targets them) just Dwarf up and go for the kill.  Once you get the Tier 9 from the secondaries, they become completely trivial. 

 

It's a shame Quants and Voids spawn randomly instead of being gated behind a certain level requirement (Ideally 20+).  Running into one early when you don't have the tools to handle them can give you the wrong impression about the ATs, as seems to have happened here. 

[Wavicle]

On 10/31/2020 at 4:35 AM, TheGentlemanGhostronaut said:

I've played CoX on and off since its launch, but despite dipping my toe into pretty much everything the one thing (two things?) I never touched was the Kheldian archetypes, they just seemed so complicated.

 

I know that they each have three forms, but I don't really know much else.  Could someone help break them down for me?

What's the difference between Peacebringer and Warshade?

What are the three forms?

Can you go with just one or do you need all three?

With so many powers how do you go about slotting?

PB is a bit more tanky, it gets mez protection across the forms (Light Form) and it gets an ally heal.

WS is a little more blasty, it gets pets and more self damage buffing.

 

The three forms are Nova (good ranged aoes), Dwarf (tank form), and Human (utility, big explosions).

 

You can play however you want, Human only, Bi-Form, Tri-Form. All are playable and fun, although personally I prefer Tri-Form.

 

Slotting is hard, no doubt. You can rely a lot on your powers and inherent (when teaming) for survivability and damage, so it is possible to go without much in the way of Set Bonuses. "Frankenslotting" can be very helpful.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Wavicle

[golstat2003]

I prefer Tri-Form. IOs make a hell of a lot of difference. I made both of mine high recharge and soloing with them is some of the easiest soloing in COH I've had to date. On teams they shine even more. I don't consider either to be hard to play, if you've got a even a bit of experience with more than 1 AT. If you're new to COH, different story. LOL