Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[CrudeVileTerror]

@RogerWilco, your point about not caring if you succeed so long as you are enjoying the time you spend with other people is really the sort of thing I like to see, and I do hope that more people find the opportunity to enjoy City of Heroes in the same capacity.  Thank you for sharing that sentiment.

[Darmian]

22 hours ago, RogerWilco said:

 

I think a few things could really help with that:

• Voice acted dialog.

---

 

I could see a model where we crowdfund 3D artists to add stuff to the game, and it's free for everyone, after the goal has been met.

I agree with a lot, quite a lot of the rest of your post (that I haven't quoted) but the voice acting?  Ah, no. seriously.  Voice acting is binary, it's either amazing (I am old school and if anyone ever played any of the Legacy of Kain games then that was my standard for great voice work) or shit.  And most of it is shit.  Plus in a comic book inspired game the speech bubbles work!

 

Provided those crowdfunded efforts are somehow still classed as donations and...see, getting donations to fund the servers is one thing.  Getting a 3D artist to do work like that would involve setting up a private commission, or else you're wandering into tax issues, things that they would have to claim/report, what their work is. Blah blah. Rogue Server. Possible legal complications. Not impossible but you're threading a corkscrew opening and trying not to touch the sides there. 

You know, I could have explained that a lot better but I'm a bit tired. LOL.

 

[Hero_of_Light]

On 11/9/2020 at 10:00 AM, MTeague said:

This I would love.  I wouldn't really even call it "Gated" content. I'd call it content that grants players some degree of agency, making their choices matter more. 

I'd hold the idea up as a gold standard of how new content should be designed.

But if people are distressed and unsatisified with the current content, I don't see this as a solution per se. 

Because I'd be shocked if we could get more than 1-2 such branching arcs per year.  (though I'd be delighted to be wrong)

Just because you wouldn't call it that, doesn't change it.

 

When a player goes down the one path, another becomes locked away, or gated 

[Darmian]

7 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Just because you wouldn't call it that, doesn't change it.

 

When a player goes down the one path, another becomes locked away, or gated 

And that's where Ouro comes in.

[Hero_of_Light]

I've noticed we're gone into 'want a big grind or not'

 

To clarify, this isn't what the topic was about originally, and also not what I want.

 

I don't want WoW or Everquest grinds.

I want meaningful Content, and rewards that are something besides just badges.

 

People seem to like the new arc idea:

 

(Made up Example)

 

You succeed: you're given a permanent temp power of a flying hoverboard that was found in the bad persons warehouse as it was cleaned out.

 

You fail: you're captured and put in a containment building after having your powers disabled in a way that vaguely matches your origin, and the only way to escape is using a hoverboard you find there, which you keep after.

 

[Hero_of_Light]

Now varry this idea throughout the game, with other temp powers, costume peices, heck even unique enhancements

[Hero_of_Light]

40 minutes ago, Darmian said:

And that's where Ouro comes in.

Great idea!

 

But it's still gated if someone goes 'I just don't wanna!' 

 

Which is a reason some have used against many ideas I've shared.

 

Personally I think it's a poor reason to keep someone else from enjoying things they like just because you don't.

[jubakumbi]

1 minute ago, Hero_of_Light said:

I've noticed we're gone into 'want a big grind or not'

 

To clarify, this isn't what the topic was about originally, and also not what I want.

 

I don't want WoW or Everquest grinds.

I want meaningful Content, and rewards that are something besides just badges.

 

People seem to like the new arc idea:

 

(Made up Example)

 

You succeed: you're given a permanent temp power of a flying hoverboard that was found in the bad persons warehouse as it was cleaned out.

 

You fail: you're captured and put in a containment building after having your powers disabled in a way that vaguely matches your origin, and the only way to escape is using a hoverboard you find there, which you keep after.

 

And that is an awesome day dream without VC and a solid plan of action.

That's the bottom line here.

We can all desire new content in all kinds of forms, nothing wrong with that, but it's just a day dream.

I want meaningful content as well, having nothing to do with reading someone elses stories, but I know it won't happen at scale, I know it's a day dream.

 

My hope was that whatever group had the biggest following would create a method for players to aid in this content creation collectively, but from my POV, HC has decided to go the corporate route of extreme control and not open this door, so it makes such things an even harder thing to do, IMO.

 

We are at the mercy of a handful of players that control the HC servers for any changes or additions to the game, rather than in a collective group working together to extend the content in City.

So, it's just like Live now, where a few control the majority, IMO, whereas it could be so very much more...

[Hero_of_Light]

On 11/10/2020 at 4:43 AM, RogerWilco said:

I did not like it on live either. I didn't like it that friends on F2P accounts could not join me in Praetoria.

It makes even less sense for a free game.

 

And it's not just MMOs.

• With Civilization, you can only play together if you have bought the same DLC, or otherwise people have to disable DLC that others do not have.
• With Paradox games like Europa Universalis, any DLC that the host of the game owns, can be played by all who join that game.

I play a lot more Paradox Studios games as a result, and am more likely to buy the DLC.

 

Make sure your best content is free and easy to access. That is what gets new players hooked. No game survives without new players.

I agree. 

 

That's why I'm a fan of playing the game to get more from the game :).

 

 Everyone has the same opportunity to get it, and all you have to do is play 🙂

[Hero_of_Light]

4 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

And that is an awesome day dream without VC and a solid plan of action.

That's the bottom line here.

We can all desire new content in all kinds of forms, nothing wrong with that, but it's just a day dream.

I want meaningful content as well, having nothing to do with reading someone elses stories, but I know it won't happen at scale, I know it's a day dream.

 

My hope was that whatever group had the biggest following would create a method for players to aid in this content creation collectively, but from my POV, HC has decided to go the corporate route of extreme control and not open this door, so it makes such things an even harder thing to do, IMO.

 

We are at the mercy of a handful of players that control the HC servers for any changes or additions to the game, rather than in a collective group working together to extend the content in City.

So, it's just like Live now, where a few control the majority, IMO, whereas it could be so very much more...

I don't see how my idea is just a day dream because they're already doing most of that idea.

 

I also can't agree with your assessment of the HC group. They seem to be going over the suggestion fourms often and they hadn't done anything to show other wise.

 

(Plus this is also off topic)

[jubakumbi]

1 hour ago, Hero_of_Light said:

I don't see how my idea is just a day dream because they're already doing most of that idea.

 

I also can't agree with your assessment of the HC group. They seem to be going over the suggestion fourms often and they hadn't done anything to show other wise.

 

(Plus this is also off topic)

OK, I should have said, 'at scale'...sure, HC is adding stuff, but not the scale it could be, IMO, because they have chosen a different path, which they publicly share.

There is nothing to disagree about, HC has said they are more focused on controling what enters the game than they are in getting a bunch of players to collectively make content at scale, they are trying hard to control the narrative of the games developement.

Suggestions are one thing, allowing a more open and collaborative creation pipeline is totally different, IMO.

 

HC has shown they have a very specific vision for the addition of content...and that's fine.

It does not mean I cannot have the POV that many of the choices they have and do make are not the best ones, I don't have to agree with all of thier choices, no one does, to be a member of the community, you just have to be a player.

 

As for off topic, I disagree.

The choices HC has made have a direct impact on the pipline that needs to be created for you to have the content you desire.

You are wanting to talk about the things that could get added to the game, gated content, incentives for playing new conent, etc., and all of that revolves around the abilities of the server runners and the communities to actually produce it, so talking about the ways it could/would happen is, IMO, on topic, because an idea without a plan is just a dream.

 

This idea of forum threads being some sort a straight line railroad tracks about ideas continues to amuse me though.

Edited November 11, 2020 by jubakumbi
speeling

[Patti]

Jubba has been kind of mean when posting back in past but I really have to agree and give kudos for really saying those last two messages.  It's totally true.  But also have to add the devs do also do some good stuff also.  Like piece meal.  Really great maps.  Really neat textures and hack job character models.  Piece meal deserves praise for that.  But piece meal is also having problems following canon and writing mission stuff as a writer.

The devs are doing good work but they also aren't perfect.

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Hero_of_Light said:

That's why I'm a fan of playing the game to get more from the game :).

Playing this game is its own reward.

 

Time sinks will not increase the player base.

 

We are fortunate it's back, 1500 badges, multiple oro arc settings to choose from - and 1000 character slots.  The addition of the LRTP opens up a new teleport zone for every zone accolade gained.

 

Thats your grind and thats enough.

 

There is plenty of fulfillment playing this game without needing to have a chest beater that you did x to get y - because that already exists with badges.  If you need anything other than that to continue playing, you are playing the wrong game.

 

The biggest validation in this game for me is that it exists again and I can play it.  I don't need unique things to keep luring me back in to trick me into time sinking - I do that anyway with making new diverse characters each with a unique style to master.

 

What you are asking for is already here really.

 

New content with multiple branched possibilities im all for. 

 

No gated stuff built on grind - hard pass.

[Piecemeal]

3 hours ago, Patti said:

 having problems following canon

I REQUIRE IMMEDIATE INPUT. JAM INPUT DIRECTLY IN MY FACE.

[CrudeVileTerror]

@Piecemeal:  Gonna guess it's the stuff related to the Cadavers/Abominations not being adequately demonstrated to be robots made of cybernetic replacement limbs covered in dead flesh, in the early missions of your hero arc.

Specifically:   The Cadavers/Abominations are not undead.  They shouldn't be able to communicate or articulate feelings like pain.  That sort of thing.

I know it's a bit of a sticking point for me, at least, but I tried to articulate that in the appropriate feedback thread(s).

 

Which, by the way, to circle back from this off-topic tangent; if people want to see the work @Piecemeal is doing on the Beta server, and then provide feedback, please go here:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/23361-focused-feedback-the-graveyard-shift-hero-story-arc-level-20-29/ and here:  https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/23362-focused-feedback-the-freakish-lab-of-dr-vahzilok-villain-story-arc-level-30-39/

(and just tangenting for a moment longer to say:  Yes!  The work you've done on visual assets so far is pretty awesome, Piecemeal.  You definitely deserve praise for that!)

 

 

Back on topic for this thread . . . 

There seems to be some contention over what to even DEFINE "grind" as between some folks here.

I would like to propose the following visual metaphor for gameplay grind:

(courtesy of @Healix)

 

If something in the game makes you feel like the Lead Shocker there, then -that- is grind.

Gameplay with long-term goals and payoff isn't (in my view, at least) the same thing as grind.

Grind is a non-consensual and unpleasant pain.

Gameplay is enjoyable.

And, yes, both are completely subjective.

[Hero_of_Light]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Playing this game is its own reward.

 

Time sinks will not increase the player base.

 

We are fortunate it's back, 1500 badges, multiple oro arc settings to choose from - and 1000 character slots.  The addition of the LRTP opens up a new teleport zone for every zone accolade gained.

 

Thats your grind and thats enough.

 

There is plenty of fulfillment playing this game without needing to have a chest beater that you did x to get y - because that already exists with badges.  If you need anything other than that to continue playing, you are playing the wrong game.

 

The biggest validation in this game for me is that it exists again and I can play it.  I don't need unique things to keep luring me back in to trick me into time sinking - I do that anyway with making new diverse characters each with a unique style to master.

 

What you are asking for is already here really.

 

New content with multiple branched possibilities im all for. 

 

No gated stuff built on grind - hard pass.

Please find in this thread where I asked for gated stuff built on grinds.

 

Did you read my examples of what I personally would like?

 

I don't think you can say what I'm asking for is already here if you don't even know what I'm asking for.

 

Side note: It's interesting that someone who hates something would tell someone what's enough haha

Edited November 12, 2020 by Hero_of_Light

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Piecemeal said:

JAM INPUT DIRECTLY IN MY FACE.

 

Interesting kink.

[CursedSorcerer]

The funny thing is that usually, I deliberately "soft-lock" myself from things like Capes and Auras until I've reached the respective level that you would've unlocked those. Anyone else?

[Piecemeal]

1 hour ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

@Piecemeal:  Gonna guess it's the stuff related to the Cadavers/Abominations not being adequately demonstrated to be robots made of cybernetic replacement limbs covered in dead flesh, in the early missions of your hero arc.

Specifically:   The Cadavers/Abominations are not undead.  They shouldn't be able to communicate or articulate feelings like pain.  That sort of thing.

I know it's a bit of a sticking point for me, at least, but I tried to articulate that in the appropriate feedback thread(s).

That was a spawndef error granting dialog to minions and me not fixing it before you noticed. And it should be very much fixed now.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Hero_of_Light said:

Side note: It's interesting that someone who hates something would tell someone what's enough haha

Show me where I said I hated anything.

 

You are directly missing my point by misrepresenting what I said here.

 

Again, and I told you the same thing last year - what you are asking for is already here. 

 

Don't seek validation with what you have or don't have, seek it with the enjoyment of playing something that in all honestly we are all lucky to have again.

 

If that's not enough then it never will be.

[Hero_of_Light]

24 minutes ago, CursedSorcerer said:

The funny thing is that usually, I deliberately "soft-lock" myself from things like Capes and Auras until I've reached the respective level that you would've unlocked those. Anyone else?

I do sometimes.

 

I also pretended to be playing the actual game in Paragon Chat one day, going from zone to zone as I would have in game.

 

Not quite the same

[Hero_of_Light]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

 

Again, and I told you the same thing last year - what you are asking for is already here. 

 

Don't seek validation with what you have or don't have, seek it with the enjoyment of playing something that in all honestly we are all lucky to have again.

But it's not already here, as the examples I gave are definitely not in game in any way.

 

I am glad it's back, but that doesn't mean I can't tell and offer suggestions to make it better.

 

I'm glad when I eat food that I'm fortunate to have, but that doesn't mean I won't season it.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by seeking validation. Do you feel I'm only posting to get attention? 

[Piecemeal]

HAH! It's not even a me problem. I'm on a Posi 1 and this happened!

 

 

Live devs making me look bad! They just didn't pay any more attention than I did!

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Hero_of_Light said:

But it's not already here, as the examples I gave are definitely not in game in any way.

 

I am glad it's back, but that doesn't mean I can't tell and offer suggestions to make it better.

 

I'm glad when I eat food that I'm fortunate to have, but that doesn't mean I won't season it.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by seeking validation. Do you feel I'm only posting to get attention? 

I dunno, thats a question only you can answer.  I am disagreeing with you that the game needs unique grindy unlocks to make it better and retain or attract people.

 

Thats just not how people are anymore - especially with an older game that we are lucky that still exists.

 

Instant gratification is unfortunately how our society is now.  And moving forward 8 years in time from when the game shut reveals this even more so.

 

I think declining population is more due to the insanity in the world right now.

 

A lot of us are basically having to homeschool our kids and dont have as much time for games for instance - and definately not grindy stuff.

[Omega-202]

5 minutes ago, Hero_of_Light said:

But it's not already here, as the examples I gave are definitely not in game in any way.

 

I am glad it's back, but that doesn't mean I can't tell and offer suggestions to make it better.

 

I'm glad when I eat food that I'm fortunate to have, but that doesn't mean I won't season it.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by seeking validation. Do you feel I'm only posting to get attention? 

A) Your suggestions would not make the game better, just more of a slog.

 

B) You're seeking validation by looking for more accomplishments and goals to be added.  

 

Please stop pretending that we all weren't around for the old thread in the Suggestions forum.  We know your views from there.  You made it clear that you want shiny things to display that say "I did X, and you didn't" because you said as much in the past.