Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[Coyotedancer]

I still say costume parts shouldn't be locked, rather it's behind level-based missions like the old cape and aura system, or completion of specific tasks. Badges, temp powers and accolades? Sure. Why not. But not costume items. In a game so heavily based on character customization, that's just *annoying*.

[Lockpick]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

I still say costume parts shouldn't be locked, rather it's behind level-based missions like the old cape and aura system, or completion of specific tasks. Badges, temp powers and accolades? Sure. Why not. But not costume items. In a game so heavily based on character customization, that's just *annoying*.

 

I don't quite get this and it seems the majority are in agreement with your opinion.  I have just never understood it.  I have no idea how many costume parts there are now.  I tried to look on Paragon Wiki and couldn't get an answer.  I assume there are hundreds of costume parts; maybe thousands.  I have a hard time understanding why having 5 to 10 costume parts behind an accomplishment gate would be an issue.

 

I mentioned the Ranger tab (badge) progression above that I went through.  What I forgot to mention was that at that time if you made it to the Ranger Regiment you were issued a black beret.  Only 3 units in the Army were able to wear berets.  Airborne units got Maroon, Rangers got Black, and Special Forces, of course, were Green.  It was a huge accomplishment for me to be issued and wear that black beret and I took pride in earning it.  I still have it today.

 

Of course, this is a video game, so the sense of accomplishment in earning a costume part or accolade may not be the same, but for me it would still be a symbol of accomplishment.

 

An interesting side note:

 

In 2001, General Eric Shenzeki took the black berets away from the Rangers and gave the black berets to all the soldiers in the Army.  He apparently saw the Rangers in their black berets and thought they looked sharp and motivated.  He felt that taking the black berets away from the Rangers that earned them and giving them to soldiers who had not earned them would instill a sense of pride in all the soldiers.  Of course, all he did was piss everyone off.

 

The Rangers were pissed because they felt the effort they put in to earn the beret was denigrated.  I was out of the Army by then, but still had buddies that were in and they were all pissed as were many in the Special Operations Group.  The soldiers that received the black berets were pissed.  The berets were hot and uncomfortable and because they didn't know how to properly maintain / wear the beret and generally did not care about appearance as much as the Rangers they just looked sloppy with berets.  It was a failure all around.  Eventually, the Rangers got the tan beret as a replacement.

 

I obviously did not know General Eric Shenzeki, but I just read his wiki.  He was apparently pretty smart (West Point and Duke) and he had a Ranger tab.  It looks like he was a standout soldier.  However, he did not serve in a SOG unit and was never an enlisted soldier.  If he had been or taken the time to talk to someone who had been he would have known this would be a major mistake. 

 

People still talk about it today, although usually they blame Clinton since he was President.

 

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/06/13/army.beret/

Edited November 21, 2020 by Lockpick
Spelling

[Coyotedancer]

2 hours ago, Lockpick said:

 

I don't quite get this and it seems the majority are in agreement with your opinion.  I have just never understood it.  I have no idea how many costume parts there are now.  I tried to look on Paragon Wiki and couldn't get an answer.  I assume there are hundreds of costume parts; maybe thousands.  I have a hard time understanding why having 5 to 10 costume parts behind an accomplishment gate would be an issue.

 

Let me explain my objections in practical terms... Maybe you'll be closer to "getting it" after that. 

 

I remember all too well my first Oranbegan characters not being able to have their glowing eyes.... something they really needed at the time to pull off the idea I was going for, since the player-usable armor pieces wouldn't come along until the faction rework years later... Because some nitwit in the old dev crew apparently thought that it was just a GRAND idea to put an entire classification of costume details... auras in that case... behind a level-gated mission. And not even a lowbie mission at that! It annoyed me then, and remembering it still annoys me now.

 

I also remember not being able to make an Amazon character look the way I wanted her to from the start because the Roman armor pieces I needed to use were locked behind being high enough level to get to the zone and finish an ITF. It was enough to make me abandon the idea of making the character, since I had no desire to play Olivia-the-Generic-Hero-Scrapper for 35 levels waiting to be deemed "worthy" of having the armor the concept called for.

 

So... no. I'm never going to like the idea of locked and limited costume parts. I've personally been bitten by it in the past and would prefer not to repeat the experience.  

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Let me explain my objections in practical terms... Maybe you'll be closer to "getting it" after that. 

 

I remember all too well my first Oranbegan characters not being able to have their glowing eyes.... something they really needed at the time to pull off the idea I was going for, since the player-usable armor pieces wouldn't come along until the faction rework years later... Because some nitwit in the old dev crew apparently thought that it was just a GRAND idea to put an entire classification of costume details... auras in that case... behind a level-gated mission. And not even a lowbie mission at that! It annoyed me then, and remembering it still annoys me now.

 

I also remember not being able to make an Amazon character look the way I wanted her to from the start because the Roman armor pieces I needed to use were locked behind being high enough level to get to the zone and finish an ITF. It was enough to make me abandon the idea of making the character, since I had no desire to play Olivia-the-Generic-Hero-Scrapper for 35 levels waiting to be deemed "worthy" of having the armor the concept called for.

 

So... no. I'm never going to like the idea of locked and limited costume parts. I've personally been bitten by it in the past and would prefer not to repeat the experience.  

Maybe you can help me "get" something too.

When this game came out, it came out being a certain way. Things were locked behind level gated missions, debt was an actual thing to worry about, missions were harder because you couldn't just turn the level down to 0 or -1, certain costume parts were either level gated or later became gated behind Task Forces, the game came out this way. So why stay and continue to play a game that had so many aspects about it that you used to find so annoying? To me I would think that you would have simply left the game since it was something that annoyed you.

 

It may have not been you specifically, but it was people who shared your view who came to the forums and very loudly demanded this game be made easier and gated things in this game be lifted. We, the opposing view to them, could not understand why they would continue to play a game that annoyed them so much, and could not understand why they would even stay here if it was not their cup of tea, instead of trying to get it changed and ruin the experience for those of us who actually enjoyed every aspect of the game, including the game's difficulty and the minor gated system that was in place. I think City of Heroes being the only superhero MMO in those days may have had something to do with it. However, Matrix Online was the only MMO that had Matrix in it as well, yet I did not go to their forums and demand changes that would ruin the game for everyone else. What I did instead was simply stop playing the game, even though I absolutely loved The Matrix.

 

So now, here we are, years later after all these aspects of the game was changed in a negative way for people who share my views to make it more enjoyable to people who share your views. However, most of us get it and we understand, that is why instead of demanding the game fit our views, the way the opposing view did all those years ago, we are simply looking for some middle ground somewhere and looking for a compromise that is acceptable to everyone...and telling us to self impose these things on us is just not going to cut it...not even a little bit.

You need to remember a lot of us back then loved it...sadly, a lot of those "lot" ended up leaving the game after people complained enough to get those gates removed. So those "lot" are no longer here to add to our point of view. I have played games before, loved the concept but hated certain things about the game that caused me to leave them. I did not go to the forums and complain until they were changed from their original setting, I instead left the games because they weren't my cup of tea. If I complained about anything at all, it was usually a complaint that was designed to get the game back on track, not a complaint that would deviate the game from its original course.

 

Well, now here we are, the game has changed from its original state and the only thing a few of us are asking for, is just a small part of that back. Yet by doing so we are being treated as though our requests are completely unreasonable. In my view, it was the people who instead of leaving this game in favor of something more to their likings but rather came to the forums and demanded things be changed, were the ones who were truly unreasonable. These same people call that a game growing...but growing for who exactly? Sure, it grew in some ways, but it deeply sacrificed other aspects of the game while doing so. That is not how a game should be "growing," you don't cut out one half of your population in favor of the other, you find a good compromise and you grow like that. The original Devs made a huge mistake by catering to just one aspect of their player base. Let's take a look at WoW for an example. Sure, they give things away for free, but they still have a ton of stuff to work for and achieve that you cannot get for free, you have to work for it. They have a good balance there and it's been working extremely well for them. We have no balance here, instead the game was changed to fit a single type of player and that is the casual player-base.

 

What truly annoys me is that I am not even asking for a balance of the two like what WoW has going on but rather instead I am just asking for a small taste of it. A mission here, a Task Force there, nothing more, yet I am still being treated like my request is just sooooo unreasonable. I am not being treated this by everyone, but by enough. There are a few who have expressed interest in at least hearing us out an perhaps entertaining a few ideas. That's a good place to start IMO and I thank them for doing so.

 

[EmmySky]

Solar...you are confusing cosmetics with gameplay.  Wearing Roman armor on a Roman soldier toon is in no way making the game easier.  People love the game and the way it plays.  They love the customization and dont want to wait 35 levels for a character concept to come to fruition.  The ability to put on that certain costume piece at 1 instead of 35 is not making the game easier.  It is simply sidestepping certain content for the time being.  

 

Cosmetic items have no bearing on gameplay.  I dont fly faster if I jave a cape.  Roman armor doesn't get me a free pass into Cim, I still have to open it.  The people disliking gated cosmetic pieces and the people petitioning for an easier game are not the same people.  

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

Solar...you are confusing cosmetics with gameplay.  Wearing Roman armor on a Roman soldier toon is in no way making the game easier.  People love the game and the way it plays.  They love the customization and dont want to wait 35 levels for a character concept to come to fruition.  The ability to put on that certain costume piece at 1 instead of 35 is not making the game easier.  It is simply sidestepping certain content for the time being.  

Costumes have nothing to do with the difficulty of the game. That was not the only thing that I said changed since the times of the old. Not sure what gave you the idea that I thought costumes had anything to do with difficulty.

 

I understand people don't want to wait for cosmetics. To that end, people don't want to seem to wait for anything these days, but I digress. However, that is why I offered a solution to those who do not wish to wait for a specific costume piece that has not even been created yet. Even more so, a way to get it now instead of wait and actually unlock it account wide...but even that doesn't seem to be good enough for people. Like I said, nobody wants to compromise.

 

Having said all that, it does not have to be a cosmetic item, however, I suspect no matter what we decide to place behind a gated wall, even if trivial, people will still be upset about it.

5 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

Cosmetic items have no bearing on gameplay.  I dont fly faster if I jave a cape.  Roman armor doesn't get me a free pass into Cim, I still have to open it.  The people disliking gated cosmetic pieces and the people petitioning for an easier game are not the same people.  

On the contrary, they are of the same mindset. Let's say that you are correct though, it still doesn't matter because they both still represent the opposing views of this thread, therefore even arguing that is mere semantics.

[Lockpick]

 

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

What truly annoys me is that I am not even asking for a balance of the two like what WoW has going on but rather instead I am just asking for a small taste of it. A mission here, a Task Force there, nothing more, yet I am still being treated like my request is just sooooo unreasonable. I am not being treated this by everyone, but by enough. There are a few who have expressed interest in at least hearing us out an perhaps entertaining a few ideas. That's a good place to start IMO and I thank them for doing so.

A good point.  I think when evaluating a position we should be asking is the position reasonable or not.  In most of my posts I say things like "it seems reasonable to me" or "it doesn't seem unreasonable to me" primarily because I am trying to align my opinion / position on this topic with trying to be reasonable.

 

I'm not suggesting we change any of the costume parts that are there now.  I don't necessarily agree with the position the HC team took to make everything unlocked, but it is what it is and I get why they did it.  However, I don't think it is unreasonable to have 5 to 10 new costume parts be earned in game when all the other costume parts are unlocked.  I haven't seen any argument that has persuaded me that my position is unreasonable.

 

I will say that I do like much of what HC did to remove the grind.  I guess there is one server that is just like Live.  I have no desire to play that level of grind.  I'm just looking for a few more rewards to incentivize playing the existing content and provide a sense of continual character progression.  I don't think that position is unreasonable.

 

All that being said, I don't think my position is going to persuade the HC team or the people who are opposed, so not sure it matters.  I just thought I would add my opinion to this thread becasue I think it is good for the HC team to hear a variety of opinions.

 

15 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

Solar...you are confusing cosmetics with gameplay.  Wearing Roman armor on a Roman soldier toon is in no way making the game easier.  People love the game and the way it plays.  They love the customization and dont want to wait 35 levels for a character concept to come to fruition.  The ability to put on that certain costume piece at 1 instead of 35 is not making the game easier.  It is simply sidestepping certain content for the time being.  

 

Cosmetic items have no bearing on gameplay.  I dont fly faster if I jave a cape.  Roman armor doesn't get me a free pass into Cim, I still have to open it.  The people disliking gated cosmetic pieces and the people petitioning for an easier game are not the same people.  

 

And is it unreasonable to have 5 to 10 costume parts earned in game out of hundreds or thousands of costume parts that are freely available?  How many costume parts earned in game would be reasonable?

[Luminara]

6 hours ago, Lockpick said:

I have a hard time understanding why having 5 to 10 costume parts behind an accomplishment gate would be an issue.

 

Because it's arbitrarily restrictive.  Disallowing character concepts because they aren't at X level, or haven't acquired a late game badge, or weren't there for an event, or are of a specific ethnicity (yes, that is the message sent when something like Roman or Greek options are restricted) forces players to either abandon the concept or accept not being allowed to play what they want, or jump through more hoops than other players.

 

Toga and Hellenic sandals - On the original servers, my main's entire theme revolved around having those costume parts, which forced me to wait for Valentine's Day before I could make and start playing that character, and still had do so in a hobo outfit.

 

Roman costume options - I unlocked them on exactly one character on the original servers, a character which was never intended to use them, and I couldn't access those costume options on any other characters unless I leveled them to 35+.  So even though the costume options technically existed, they were non-existent for the characters I wanted to create and play.  I had to settle for spandex and blue jeans and slog through half (or all) of the game looking nothing like what I envisioned, or abandon the characters entirely.

 

Now put robotic costume options behind those gates.  Or plant costume options.  Or different skin colors.  It's no less arbitrary or restrictive, regardless of which options are gated or how thematic it might be for the gates to exist, and it's discouraging for everyone.  It tells players they're not welcome or wanted unless they conform to a specific model or mindset.  And it doesn't improve retention by making players more attached to characters they finally unlocked those options on because they're typically unlocking the options on the "wrong" characters.

 

Gating the way we look in-game is a bad reward model, because characters looking the way players envision them shouldn't be a reward.  Being Greek isn't a reward.  Being a robot isn't a reward.  Being blue-skinned isn't a reward.  Powers, yes.  Bonuses to character attributes, yes.  Those are rewards.  Upgraded versions of costume options with extra detail or particle effects or shiny metallic surfaces, yes, those are rewards.  Waiting until level 40, or 8 months for an event to start, just to look the way we want, that's not a reward, it's a discouragement.

 

We don't all want to wear tights and a cape when we're being a hero/villain.  That might be okay for some people, but in a game like Co*, freedom of expression and the ability to probe the depths of our imagination by exploring less ordinary costume options is a strength, one which should be continued and perpetuated, not curtailed with gates.

[EmmySky]

18 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

And is it unreasonable to have 5 to 10 costume parts earned in game out of hundreds or thousands of costume parts that are freely available?  How many costume parts earned in game would be reasonable?

I said nothing about reasonable or unreasonable so not sure why you quoted me.

 

However, it is unreasonable to claim that ungated costume parts is equal to the game being easier.  The previous gates were not difficult, just time consuming or level dependent.  Whoever removed the gates for costuming (cosmetic pieces) did not do it to make the game easier as Solar claims...it just removes inconvenience.

[Solarverse]

7 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

I said nothing about reasonable or unreasonable so not sure why you quoted me.

 

However, it is unreasonable to claim that ungated costume parts is equal to the game being easier.  The previous gates were not difficult, just time consuming or level dependent.  Whoever removed the gates for costuming (cosmetic pieces) did not do it to make the game easier as Solar claims...it just removes inconvenience.

If you are giving something that used to require work to obtain for free, that does indeed make it easier. Let's not go round and round about that, please?

[Wobegone]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

You need to remember a lot of us back then loved it...sadly, a lot of those "lot" ended up leaving the game after people complained enough to get those gates removed. So those "lot" are no longer here to add to our point of view. I have played games before, loved the concept but hated certain things about the game that caused me to leave them. 

This is the part that's baffling to me.  You questioned earlier why people continued to play if they didn't like gated content.  It's because while gated content was annoying and largely unnecessary, it wasn't a dealbreaker.  On the other hand, it was apparently a dealbreaker for 'lots' of players when gated content disappeared?  This doesn't make much sense to me.  I'm not saying this to disparage.  

The closest example I can think of is WoW, when they made it easier to achieve raid gear.  Some players were furious because people didn't have to 'earn' gear anymore.  But that analogy isn't close because most gated content in CoH was cosmetic in nature.  Am I missing something?  It's entirely possible...I'm not the brightest bulb.  

[Lockpick]

35 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

I said nothing about reasonable or unreasonable so not sure why you quoted me.

 

However, it is unreasonable to claim that ungated costume parts is equal to the game being easier.  The previous gates were not difficult, just time consuming or level dependent.  Whoever removed the gates for costuming (cosmetic pieces) did not do it to make the game easier as Solar claims...it just removes inconvenience.

 

I was quoting you because you said:

 

1 hour ago, EmmySky said:

People love the game and the way it plays.  They love the customization and dont want to wait 35 levels for a character concept to come to fruition. 

 

I agree that people don't want to wait.  I don't think it matters if a costume part makes the game easier or not.  A costume part historically has been one type of a reward for accomplishing certain activities in game.

 

My question was is it unreasonable to have 5 to 10 new costume parts earned in game out of hundreds or thousands of costume parts that are freely available? 

If not, how many costume parts earned in game would be reasonable?

 

36 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Because it's arbitrarily restrictive.

Sorry, I don't agree.  I think it is entirely reasonable that you would unlock Vanguard costume parts for becoming a member of Vanguard and Roman costume parts for having been sent back in time to Cimerora.

 

It sounds like you think it is unreasonable to have any costume parts gated behind content.  I'm curious if you were to step back and look at the positions:

 

• Position 1: It is okay to have 5 to 10 new costume parts unlocked through game play because historically this was how some costume parts were awarded.  After all there are hundred or thousands of existing costume parts that are unlocked that can be used immediately.
• Position 2: It is not okay to have to unlock any new costume parts through game play because there might be a character concept I want to create using those costume parts and the game values freedom of expression.

 

Which position do you think a reasonable person without a stake in the outcome would take?

 

All of this is moot really since the HC team has already made their position clear, so I think for further dialogue it might be better to focus on other aspects rather than costume parts since that seems to be clearly a position that most people in this thread oppose.

 

Do you have thoughts on the other reward suggestions being earned in game?

 

16 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

 Some players were furious because people didn't have to 'earn' gear anymore.  But that analogy isn't close because most gated content in CoH was cosmetic in nature.  Am I missing something?  It's entirely possible...

 

Most gated content was probably badges, followed by temp powers (think Day Job powers), then I would guess it would be cosmetics and then non Day Job accolade powers.  All of the other gated content aside from the cosmetics remains today.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Lockpick
Edits

[EmmySky]

23 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

Most gated content was probably badges, followed by temp powers (think Day Job powers), then I would guess it would be cosmetics and then non Day Job accolade powers.  All of the other gated content aside from the cosmetics remains today.

Exactly this.  This is already a compromise between gated content vs. no gated content.

 

This is not a retail version of the game....I believe letting the costume focused people have their outfits makes the most sense.  For the shiney, or the feeling of accomplishment, or the grind, or even the ego stroking, there are avenues of gated content in the game right now.  I understand there are some new mechanics coming in the next issue which offer more gating without restricting player agency in a cosmetic way.  That is awesome.  

[DSorrow]

1 hour ago, Lockpick said:

And is it unreasonable to have 5 to 10 costume parts earned in game out of hundreds or thousands of costume parts that are freely available?

I don't think it's so much a question of how reasonable a certain number of unlockables is, but rather what purpose  the concept itself serves and how it would be an improvement over what we have now.

 

Going back to your beret, those have a purpose to help others identify people with an exclusive skillset in an environment where that kind of skillset is required. This is similar to a doctor's coat, raid armor or competitive rank in environments where it's important to know your teammates' qualification as the environments are purposefully built around separating people into hierarchies based on skill. However, CoH has nothing where much more than average skill is needed, so there's absolutely no need to be able to identify player skill by their unlocks, so traditional unlocks here would only be arbitrarily exclusive.

 

If the whole game was to move into that direction, I could see unlocks (with multiple ways to get them) fitting in but as things current stand I think they'd only serve pointless elitism and/or add an inconvenience for those who don't enjoy the content it's gated behind.

 

ETA: besides, there are already literally over 1000 badges for anyone who just wants to unlock achievements. I don't think there's any need to expand that to costume pieces or anything that restricts the players from properly representing their characters or playing the content they enjoy. If there's content that's not played, what should be done is research why it isn't played and then focus on fixing the problems rather than band-aiding the situation by gating something behind it.

Edited November 21, 2020 by DSorrow

[Luminara]

9 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

Sorry, I don't agree.  I think it is entirely reasonable that you would unlock Vanguard costume parts for becoming a member of Vanguard and Roman costume parts for having been sent back in time to Cimerora.

 

Then you're also saying that it's unreasonable to be an Italian, in the case of the Roman costume options.  Clearly Italy exist in the game world, or there'd be no Cimerora, and there are no references in the game which indicate that it was destroyed in any way, such as during the Rikti invasion, or by the Devouring Earth, so there must be Italians, but you're outright saying that it's unreasonable to be an Italian hero/villain by restricting that costume option.  You're saying that there are no custom-made armors available because no-one in the game world can make them, yet we walk, run, fly and jump past Icon and Facemaker stores every day, so there obviously are people who can tailor-make something like a lorica segmentata.  You're saying that nothing can be inherited, borrowed or stolen, but there are numerous references to NPCs inheriting, borrowing or stealing things.  You're saying that nothing can be found archaeologically, in direct contradiction to an entire series of missions in Faultline which involve you participating in archeological excavations to find a buried weapon of immense power.  You're saying that these costume options only exist within one specific, narrow framework of explanation and that anything else is wrong, and you're saying that in spite of in-game references and evidence disputing that assertion.

 

Time travel may be the only way for you to obtain Roman costume options, but they're not the only way they can exist within the context of the game, because the game specifically allows them to exist by explaining that existence in a variety of other ways.

 

And this is applicable to all costume options.  No-one says someone wearing a Vanguard costume is a member of Vanguard.  It could be a reproduction, it could be found, it could be stolen, it could be inherited, it could be a gift, it could be a magical hairpin which makes the character look that way, it could be any of a hundred million things.  Cosmetic items should not be gated.  It's contrary to the game's established lore, not complimentary, it's arbitrary, it's restrictive and it's discouraging of creativity and diversity.  It tells players that they're not allowed to be smart, or rich, or conniving, or creative.  And that's just wrong.  You might as well lock femininity and colored skin behind cosmetic item gates, too, because that's the message it sends to players.  City of Rich White Dudes in Spandex.

[KC4800]

I think if a player wants a restriction imposed he can just do it himself.  We can pretend that we have to run the cape mission before we put on a cape. We can pretend we have to go to Cim before we wear Roman headgear. We can impose any restriction we want if we have enough self-discipline.

[Lockpick]

1 hour ago, KC4800 said:

I think if a player wants a restriction imposed he can just do it himself.  We can pretend that we have to run the cape mission before we put on a cape. We can pretend we have to go to Cim before we wear Roman headgear. We can impose any restriction we want if we have enough self-discipline.

Sure, of course we can impose self-discipline, although I fail to see the relevance in the position I have been advocating.  I have already stated multiple times that I would not change any of the existing rewards or existing costume parts.  Any comments I have made about Vanguard or Cimerora are only examples of why I think it is reasonable to earn costume parts in certain situations.

 

I have suggested they might add future rewards to existing content to incentivize doing the content and I think it is reasonable to have to unlock those rewards.

 

2 hours ago, EmmySky said:

Exactly this.  This is already a compromise between gated content vs. no gated content.

 

This is not a retail version of the game....I believe letting the costume focused people have their outfits makes the most sense.  For the shiney, or the feeling of accomplishment, or the grind, or even the ego stroking, there are avenues of gated content in the game right now.  I understand there are some new mechanics coming in the next issue which offer more gating without restricting player agency in a cosmetic way.  That is awesome.  

 

I agree that there is already a compromise between gated content and non-gated content.  I think we are in a pretty good place right now, although I might have gated a few more things than the HC team did.  I am really glad we agree on something.

 

That being said, is it possible that you might agree that for new rewards it might be reasonable to have some of those new rewards gated?  Let's even assume that costume parts are off the table.  The current HC team doesn't seem to want to lock costume parts behind content, so lets assume there will never be a costume part that has to be earned in game.

 

Are you okay to add new rewards to existing content to incentivize doing that content?

 

I feel like we are really getting derailed by the costume part issue, so let's take it off the table and discuss other areas.

 

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

Then you're also saying that it's unreasonable to be an Italian, in the case of the Roman costume options. 

No, I'm not saying that at all.  What I said was pretty basic.  It is my opinion that is appropriate occasionally to gate rewards behind having to unlock in game to include costume parts.  I think you keep misinterpreting me to try and justify your position. 

 

That being said, I feel like we are really getting derailed by the costume part issue, so would suggest we take it off the table and discuss other areas.

 

[Naraka]

17 hours ago, Troo said:

So.. no new costume pieces? 

  King Solomon solution

Since it's a volunteer effort, why not seek the community to assist? And if the design is good and accepted, why not give the designer a bit of authority for their efforts? Like if they want to put the cosmetic behind unlocking all costume slots (the missions done, not just having them) so be it... Or if they want to make it purchasable with 1000 hero merits... Maybe swing that down to 5 instead but the requirement still exists. 

 

17 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

 

Guy, you need to get some fresh air.  Go for a stroll and cool off.  You're just lashing out at this point.  

You're gaslighting if you think people can't write a forum response without losing their cool because their cooped up (probably wouldn't tell people to go for a stroll either considering you don't know the circumstances of their quarantine situation). Probably just beat to keep to the discussion and not try to appeal to emotion.

 

17 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

I prefer to examine the why over the details of the thing discussed, so sure, I do have a differnt scope, cannot disagree.

I draw context where I see it, thanks, not just where you think it's appropriate. 🙂

Not dialing back at all really, I totally think the whole idea of having to earn costume rewards is directly tied to the monetization of these games ad is the root cause of training people to think these gates are a 'playstyle', I was using it also as an example of leveraging the PWE in others as a dopamine lever.

We make the rules, we can alter them at will, it's not chess ... but it is now COH:HC, so really, HC makes the rules.

 

The only intersting thing to me is why people bring up these ideas, especially for a gme in this state, the brain chemistry and outlook behind the thoughts are the fascinating part, the details all just change form game to game, mountain to mountain, molehill to molehill.

Totally different scope, no question.

Why people want to turn games like this into discrete chores is just one of teh things I love to examine within the gaming community.

That's what I'm saying. If you examined the why for details, you would be examining the context clues. Context clues is a literal elementary concept of reading and communication. Using contextual interpretation, I understand your response has a passive aggressive tone although you would likely disagree to save face amongst the presence of the other posters. I'm not going to press it because it's commonly understood how text is difficult to convey tone, which is fine, I have no qualms with being wrong or corrected if I misinterpret something... But at the same time, most would expect the same courtesy.

 

Back on topic, I put forth the analogy of depression specifically because it is not a particular target you can be tackling here... Same for the inane dopamine argument (and those two, depression and dopamine (or the inability for receptors to interact with it) are linked. If I'm guilt tripping people with a depression argument, your demonizing with the dopamine and addiction argument. So which way do you want it? To keep pressing with that and continue down that road? Or try to object with something we are allowed to discuss here?

Edited November 21, 2020 by Naraka

[jubakumbi]

34 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

... It is my opinion that is appropriate  ...

This is the rub for the whole, decades old, never ending, drama filled, 'holy war' about the idea of 'earning' anything in a video game.

It is totally, completely, 100% subjective.

 

What one player calls a 'chore', another calls a grind and another calls 'appropriate'...and none of those are exclusive and the POVs change with time.

 

When you have people playing for fundamentally different reasons because they get their dopamine in fundamentally different ways, there is no way to please to masses.

 

IMO, this is much more of a life outlook that bleeds into games more than it's a game playstyle bleeding into real life.

 

Some people want everyone to get everything available in the code to use as tools to make characters from the start, making comic based clip books and stories, while other want a super-hero life simulator, and everything in between.

 

All I want is for people to stop martyring themselves over these ideas, acting as if people have deeply wronged them personally simply because we see life differently.

 

While others are tired of whatever, I grow weary of the constant refrain that simply disagreeing, even if passionately, is an attack, but I live in reality and I know it's a pipe dream, just like adding/changing most of what is discussed in these threads because that's reality.

Edited November 21, 2020 by jubakumbi

[Lockpick]

2 hours ago, DSorrow said:

I don't think it's so much a question of how reasonable a certain number of unlockables is, but rather what purpose  the concept itself serves and how it would be an improvement over what we have now.

 

Going back to your beret, those have a purpose to help others identify people with an exclusive skillset in an environment where that kind of skillset is required. This is similar to a doctor's coat, raid armor or competitive rank in environments where it's important to know your teammates' qualification as the environments are purposefully built around separating people into hierarchies based on skill. However, CoH has nothing where much more than average skill is needed, so there's absolutely no need to be able to identify player skill by their unlocks, so traditional unlocks here would only be arbitrarily exclusive.

 

If the whole game was to move into that direction, I could see unlocks (with multiple ways to get them) fitting in but as things current stand I think they'd only serve pointless elitism and/or add an inconvenience for those who don't enjoy the content it's gated behind.

 

ETA: besides, there are already literally over 1000 badges for anyone who just wants to unlock achievements. I don't think there's any need to expand that to costume pieces or anything that restricts the players from properly representing their characters or playing the content they enjoy. If there's content that's not played, what should be done is research why it isn't played and then focus on fixing the problems rather than band-aiding the situation by gating something behind it.

 

I think this bolded and highlighted section is probably the most important section I have seen in this thread.  I know @Solarverse has tried to explain it multiple times from his perspective and it doesn't seem as though people are understanding his points, so I'll take a stab.  I'm not sure I can explain it better than he has already though.

 

Yesterday I was wondering why I was spending my time replying to this thread as opposed to playing the game.  After all, I love this game.  It was my first MMO.  I started playing when it first came out.  I was going through a rough patch and I can honestly say that playing this game kept me out of a lot of trouble,  I probably played 15 to 20 hours per day early on.  Over the years my play time diminished, but I was still probably playing 20 hours per week and had 2 accounts due to the character slot restrictions.  It was a happy moment when my first character dinged 50!  I was always happy when I unlocked my travel power or earned a cape for the characters then needed them.  Still happy today when I unlock one of the 4 passive powers.

 

I was pissed when the game was shut down and was ecstatic when it came back.  I again jumped right back in and played like crazy becasue I was afraid it would get shut down again.  Over time I gradually diminished my play time, but was still playing 10 to 15 hours per week.

 

Recently I have been trying to think about what I should do in game.  My typical routine is to get a character to 50, incarnate to T4, make sure I have the 4 passives, make sure the costume slots are unlocked, make sure I have $100M Inf.  Once I do that I take an alt through the same journey.

 

I now have 18 level 50 characters with the majority of them complete within the parameters I set.  I have 2 level 40s and probably 20 characters in the 30s.

 

The desire to play the game is slowly ebbing away because I don't feel like there is a way for me to continue to progress once I hit 50 and my parameters.  I like to be rewarded for playing content because I feel like I am being rewarded and am achieving an accomplishment, but once you cap yourself with all the rewards that are available that you believe provide a reasonable reward there is really no reason to play further.

 

My thoughts are that additional rewards added to existing content will allow continual progression.  That is why my suggestions focused on adding rewards to the task forces, vet levels, etc.  There would be an incentive to progress and a feeling of accomplishment.  I also think that adding rewards to vet levels means more people would play one character longer leading to them becoming more well known within the server community and fostering more community spirit.  I have no stats to back that up, just my opinion.

 

I honestly don't know hwy people keep acting like we are talking about making the whole game move in this direction.  I have not suggested that at all.  I have suggested adding additional new rewards to existing content.  I have not suggested changing any current rewards at all.  My take is that there are no rewards for certain sections of the game.  Let's add some rewards there.  No one is getting those rewards today, so it shouldn't really be an issue if they choose not to earn those fictional rewards in the future.

 

Y'all know this is just my opinion, right?  I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone or tell anyone how to play the game.  I am just expressing my opinion.

[Starforge]

At this point we are playing a pirated game that shut down eight years ago. Any sort of gating existing costume pieces or whatever we have access to now is a nonstarter.

 

It’s a horrible idea because as has been mentioned numerous times already, you can impose whatever self limitations you want on accessing stuff and there is nothing wrong with that. 
 

Now if new items are created down the road we will obviously be able to test that and provide constructive feedback at that time if there is any sort of grind involved in obtaining those things.

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Back on topic, I put forth the analogy of depression specifically because it is not a particular target you can be tackling here... Same for the inane dopamine argument (and those two, depression and dopamine (or the inability for receptors to interact with it) are linked). If I'm guilt tripping people with a depression argument, your demonizing with the dopamine and addiction argument. So which way do you want it? To keep pressing with that and continue down that road? Or try to object with something we are allowed to discuss here?

I tackle depression where and when I see it, I don't consider it to be off limits.

I am not demonizing anyone by recognizing humans play to get hits of dopamine, it has nothing to do with addiction in general.

This is the first post I have even referenced addiction on these forums, I think.

 

IMO, you tried to use some idea that there is an onus on the players running a game should feel bad for not getting more people to play, because those players 'needed' the game.

That's it.

If that is not your intent, as you have explained, Great!

 

You can read in whatever else you like.

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

Y'all know this is just my opinion, right?  I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone or tell anyone how to play the game.  I am just expressing my opinion.

You are able to convey your options and outlooks without tearing down or directly insulting other POVs to make you point.

IME, and obviously that of others, some posters are not, and cannot state their preferred playstyles and opinions w/o denigrating other playstyles, or using them as examples of 'bad', to somehow promote their outlooks.

For me, it's just that simple.

[Naraka]

10 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

Let me explain my objections in practical terms... Maybe you'll be closer to "getting it" after that. 

 

I remember all too well my first Oranbegan characters not being able to have their glowing eyes.... something they really needed at the time to pull off the idea I was going for, since the player-usable armor pieces wouldn't come along until the faction rework years later... Because some nitwit in the old dev crew apparently thought that it was just a GRAND idea to put an entire classification of costume details... auras in that case... behind a level-gated mission. And not even a lowbie mission at that! It annoyed me then, and remembering it still annoys me now.

 

I also remember not being able to make an Amazon character look the way I wanted her to from the start because the Roman armor pieces I needed to use were locked behind being high enough level to get to the zone and finish an ITF. It was enough to make me abandon the idea of making the character, since I had no desire to play Olivia-the-Generic-Hero-Scrapper for 35 levels waiting to be deemed "worthy" of having the armor the concept called for.

 

So... no. I'm never going to like the idea of locked and limited costume parts. I've personally been bitten by it in the past and would prefer not to repeat the experience.  

I could craft a work around for you, create a story, give a personal example or whatever but it all would be meaningless. I'd be eating my time.

 

At the end of the day, with those frustrations you had to work through, you obviously didn't quit the game. So while I can empathize with you, I also just wince in disgust at the sense of entitlement that you are, in any way or fashion, inconvenienced and you go out of your way to push others out of your way so that remains so. I'd be right behind you if, at the least, you could agree that it'd be annoying and you'd rather not need costumes to be unlocked but know it wouldn't be the end of the world. But you don't and you can't and I just smh and wonder what is wrong with people now a days. 

 

People complain that games hold your hand and give you a billion hours worth of tutorials and the reason is, people can't be arsed with the inconvenience of having to discover things themselves or go look it up. You literally need a big arrow pointing to objectives or is bad design. 

[Coyotedancer]

8 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Maybe you can help me "get" something too.

When this game came out, it came out being a certain way. Things were locked behind level gated missions, debt was an actual thing to worry about, missions were harder because you couldn't just turn the level down to 0 or -1, certain costume parts were either level gated or later became gated behind Task Forces, the game came out this way. So why stay and continue to play a game that had so many aspects about it that you used to find so annoying? To me I would think that you would have simply left the game since it was something that annoyed you.

 

I stayed because there were OTHER parts of the game that I enjoyed. 'Same as anyone else. Likely the same reason you stay now.

 

You are also, again, reading a lot more into what I posted than was actually said. You're making the assumption that I want the game to be a cakewalk and have something against added challenge. That isn't the case. But hey... jerk that knee if it makes you feel better.

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Coyotedancer