Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

I'd have no issue with that either. An extra enhancement slot isn't going to impact a character concept the same way locked costume bits did.

Now we're on to something!

[Solarverse]

4 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

If you mean Enhancement Storage, hell yes!

If you mean in Powers for Slotting purposes:  I'm sure the "game balance" arguments will be against that, but I'd be cool with being able to unlock Enhancement Slots either earlier by grinding for it, or in addition to the current max, but would want it to be an any-level sort of thing in either case.

Or if we even grey out those enhancement slots and they only unlock when playing Incarnate Task Forces? There are ways around the balancing issues I think.

[Solarverse]

6 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

You may want to look at the time stamps for VT's post and the one you quoted, Solar... Unless you're reading the thread backwards it's pretty obvious that they posted their summary AFTER that.

 

Personally, I'm done talking to you about this. I suggest you just ignore list me if you're going to continue to have objections to every single post I make. 

No, people keep going back to that and I am just trying to keep things updated. Don't take offense to it, no offense is intentional. To be quite honest, I like you as a forum poster, we usually agree on things and see eye to eye, it just so happens we have bumped heads a bit in this thread. And to answer your question on how I am reading this thread, I just woke up and had a LOT of posts to read through, I have just been responding to them as I read them so that I don't lose track of which post I last read.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Solarverse

[Solarverse]

4 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

A good point. The people who are Very Concerned about power creep would likely have some objections to new slots. 

Power Creep probably wouldn't be such an issue if we confined the use of extra Enhancement Slots to Incarnate content.

[CrudeVileTerror]

eh.  I wouldn't be interested in the extra Enhancement Slots at all if they were linked only to Incarnate stuff.  But that's a "just me" problem.  If that's ultimately how such a reward works, I'll be irked, but not surprised.

 

Like I say in other threads and at the beginning of this one:  I want to see multiple avenues to unlocking stuff.

So, as a random out-my-ass example:

-  Incarnate content is currently a level 50 thing.  That's one avenue.

-  Theoretical suggestion:  Grind out 500 Defeats of Boss-rank Enemies for each enemy faction, and complete a particularly challenging story arc while solo.  That's another.

-  Theoretical suggestion:  Spend 2 Billion Inf per Incarnate Slot unlocked prior to Level 50.  That's a third avenue.

 

I would be very pleased to see that.

 

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

eh.  I wouldn't be interested in the extra Enhancement Slots at all if they were linked only to Incarnate stuff.  But that's a "just me" problem.  If that's ultimately how such a reward works, I'll be irked, but not surprised.

It's just something in case of power creep being a further issue and trying to cover that point before it's made an issue. Either way.

1 minute ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

 

Like I say in other threads and at the beginning of this one:  I want to see multiple avenues to unlocking stuff.

So, as a random out-my-ass example:

-  Incarnate content is currently a level 50 thing.  That's one avenue.

-  Theoretical suggestion:  Grind out 500 Defeats of Boss-rank Enemies for each enemy faction, and complete a particularly challenging story arc while solo.  That's another.

-  Theoretical suggestion:  Spend 2 Billion Inf per Incarnate Slot unlocked prior to Level 50.  That's a third avenue.

 

I would be very pleased to see that.

 

I would have zero issues with any of these.

[HelBlaiz]

My compromise on the topics of things to grind or feel accomplished about has always been "Anything but costumes." That's the compromise, you can have your grindy accomplishments, just don't make them costumes. However, since it's been thrown about a couple times now, don't lock Power Sets behind gates either, those play into character creation similarly enough to costumes that locking them is just as bad, and arguably worse.

Anything else, badges, accolades, Hami-Os, whatever are fine. I really like the idea of locking cool, challenging boss fights behind gates. Your reward for playing the fun, engaging thing you enjoy is more of the fun, engaging thing you enjoy, with more accomplishment warm fuzzies that come along with it when you win. Of course, this hinges on designing cool, challenging boss fights that are fun and engaging, despite people claiming this game is too easy. Could be a bit of a trick to pull off.

[tidge]

Two comments. The first is self-reporting of my own opinion; the second is my interpretation of what some other people want. The second almost certainly doesn't reflect the diversity of intellectual nuance of other people's thoughts, but it is how a certain class of arguments comes across to me.

 

1) There are parts of the Homecoming game that I don't play: those areas are 'gated' by my interest in those areas. I don't think there is a need to put such things behind an actual gate.

 

2) It appears that the folks who are most in favor of gated content, also want the game-world to recognize that they have been able to open the 'gate'. It could be visually obvious (e.g. a costume piece, a badge name, a +1 badge count) or it could be performance based (e.g. more enhancement slots, more accolades/powers).  The conversation in this thread have revealed that there is not even agreement on what the rewards should be for passing through hypothetical gates.

[Alchemystic]

Who needs grind in game when yall are so busy grinding in this forum 

[jubakumbi]

6 minutes ago, tidge said:

2) It appears that the folks who are most in favor of gated content, also want the game-world to recognize that they have been able to open the 'gate'. It could be visually obvious (e.g. a costume piece, a badge name, a +1 badge count) or it could be performance based (e.g. more enhancement slots, more accolades/powers).  The conversation in this thread have revealed that there is not even agreement on what the rewards should be for passing through hypothetical gates.

And a corollary to that is an argument that the existence of said gated content would encourage people to both play that content and stay to play in general, if there was more of that content added.

 

I think the gated content sans costumes is already mostly there in the form of badges and temp powers, personally, and HC is adding more badges.

 

I also think that this gated content will have no real impact on player retention at this point in the games lifecycle.

I don't play gated content now in MMOs that still have corporate funding, I never played it in COH, unless I felt like the content was fun,

Playing content just to open a gate on a character is a chore like cleaning the garage, it is not fun like playing in the sprinkler on a hot day, IMO.

Sure, I might have a clean garage to show off, but who cares?

 

A huge reason I loved this game in the first place was that my 'earned gear' had nothing to do with my appearance.

I literally played the cape mission only a handful of times on Live, once when it was just new, and once later for a character that needed a cape for concept.

I adopted Edna's outlook of "No Capes!" and to this day, I don't design costumes with capes because of that stupid Gate.

Seriously.

That cape content gate ruined any chance I ever had of making capes a regular part of my costume designs, it negatively impacted my creative output and my general mood.

When we discovered there real reason, that the software could not handle the rendering and the devs just wanted to lessen the number of in-game capes, I realized stifling creativity was part of their plan to keep the game up and running, from my POV, just like the misinformation and rage against the players over AE.

This is how I see all cosmetics as earned content in games - stifling the creativity of players for money.

 

I don't think I ever had all the accolades from TFs and stuff...as in, not all on one character, but not all total spread over 30+ 50's.

 

Chores in a video game have simply never been my thing.

I participate today in MMOs with the seasonal content like COH has, and never enter any of the season content, because I am playing the game to escape from real life and/or I am focused on what I want to do, not what the extroverts want me to do with them right now.

At least the ones in COH are basically just power leveling events, like ToT.

 

So, the idea that having more of these gates, that adding more of them, will increase player numbers and retention is what I think is simply misguided, from people that are on the edge of outgrowing the game or needing a break, and thinking that 'if they just' then the game would be fresh and new again...you can never really go home, as the saying goes...

Nothing wrong with adding more badges and tiny % increases to the power creep IMO to make some people who like them have the opportunity to get them, IMO, but it won't have some magic impact on player numbers.

 

I think opening up more of the current content has a higher chance of keeping the game interesting for more people, over creating in-game hoops for players to jump through, like making all content level with your character, etc.

 

And, finally, I know I am sick of being called a 'casual' simply because I choose to play more creatively, I challenge anyone to out-do some of my builds, I can min-max with the best in this game.

Simply because I don't enjoy the square-dancing grind, simply because I don't base my well-being on being able to show others in game what I have accomplished, I am called 'casual' like it's some insult - I take it to mean that I can play games like rational individual rather than a rabid-fanboi, knowing they are games for fun, not a second job or a way to prove to others I am worthy...

 

Happy Holidays!

[Ruin Mage]

I just want to play the game. I just want to make cool costumes.

I don't want to have to bash my head in against 500 Skulls just to get a cool skull-themed costume piece.
I don't want to have to go through content to get anything cosmetically to be unlocked. Weapons, costume details, etc.
There is one exception, but even I'm not too into it.
That shit aint cash money.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Shadeknight

[GM Tock]

Red light!

 

Posts removed.  I'm going to try this one last time.  Please do not engage in personal attacks, it's in the Code of Conduct.  If someone does, report, ignore and we'll handle it.  Argue the thoughts, not the person.

 

And green light!

[Grouchybeast]

On 11/21/2020 at 9:38 PM, Solarverse said:

This right here. Well said, Lockpick. Another option for progression could be that every so many Vet Levels we unlock 1 new Enhancement Slot.

That seems to fly in the face of your complaint that the game has been repeatedly made easier, and that has spoiled it for players like you.

 

I propose the reverse: every X number of vet levels after 100, a small, cumulative debuff of some kind is applied to the character.  As the character racks up vet levels, the game becomes progressively harder and harder for them.  The vet levels become a badge of honour marking their heroic (or villainous) progress in the face of increasing odds.  (Of course, anyone can choose to opt out of the system by turning off XP at level 100.)

[CrudeVileTerror]

Honestly, @Grouchybeast?

Make that truly optional, and I'll put my signature on that particular petition.  It frankly sounds rather compelling, and might actually encourage me to acquire Vet levels some day.

[Grouchybeast]

Just now, CrudeVileTerror said:

Honestly, @Grouchybeast?

Make that truly optional, and I'll put my signature on that particular petition.  It frankly sounds rather compelling, and might actually encourage me to acquire Vet levels some day.

More power is the automatic go-to reward, but if you're one of the people who finds the current incarnation of the game too easy. then more power if functionally a penalty, not a reward.  It might actually provide a genuinely escalating challenge for people who want that without impacting people who don't.   I think it would need a way to 'unwind' vet levels, though, so that people could try it and then back out if they found it wasn't for them.  Perhaps as simple as 'reverse xp', so that it would take as much xp to reset as it did to achieve in the first place.

[wjrasmussen]

On 11/8/2020 at 11:12 AM, CrudeVileTerror said:

I think calling it "instant gratification" is rather disingenuous, honestly.  It's certainly not your cup of tea, and I can respect that, but I think oversimplifying it like that just illustrates the underlying disconnect we have on a philosophical level.

 

But anyway; if not going back and unlocking all the existing content, I do hope that the Devs consider the "multiple avenue" approach for all future content.

Player choice.

It always comes back to that.

Ok, here is a disingenuous test for you.   If there is gated content and you want a alternative path to unlock, would like cry if that alternative path took longer than the original path?

[CrudeVileTerror]

I believe there may be a typo or two in your message, @wjrasmussen, but if I am reading your meaning correctly:

I would gladly have alternative paths that take longer, so long as they're meaningfully different and not so long as to be inane.

[Twisted Toon]

21 minutes ago, wjrasmussen said:

Ok, here is a disingenuous test for you.   If there is gated content and you want a alternative path to unlock, would like cry if that alternative path took longer than the original path?

You mean, similar to (back when the game was live) when Dark Astoria was converted to an Incarnate zone and a solo path to Incarnates was introduced?

 

I was all for that.

 

I really don't like the iTrials. (Never did)

But, right after Incarnates were introduced, that was the only way for players to get anything beyond the Alpha slot.

Once the solo path was introduced, I never stepped foot in an iTrial again.

 

Yes, it took a lot longer to get the Incarnates slots (and salvage) on the solo path that it did in an iTrial.

That didn't stop me from soloing my Incarnate progression.

I enjoyed the solo path much more than any of the iTrials.

 

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Grouchybeast said:

That seems to fly in the face of your complaint that the game has been repeatedly made easier, and that has spoiled it for players like you.

It's called making sacrifices in one aspect of the game to achieve a goal in another. I have no choice since most ideas put out there were shot down...so it caused me to look in to other avenues. Besides, I also made the suggest that this only activate during Incarnate Trials.

[Solarverse]

55 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

More power is the automatic go-to reward, but if you're one of the people who finds the current incarnation of the game too easy. then more power if functionally a penalty, not a reward.  It might actually provide a genuinely escalating challenge for people who want that without impacting people who don't.   I think it would need a way to 'unwind' vet levels, though, so that people could try it and then back out if they found it wasn't for them.  Perhaps as simple as 'reverse xp', so that it would take as much xp to reset as it did to achieve in the first place.

That sounds too much like purposely gimping yourself which is something I completely disagree with.

[Saikochoro]

On 11/21/2020 at 12:53 PM, Solarverse said:

What about new enhancement slots?

I would prefer something more like unlocking extra inspiration slots.  Less permanent, but still rewarding. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Saikochoro

[Solarverse]

17 minutes ago, Saikochoro said:

I would prefer something more like unlocking extra inspiration slots.  Less permanent, but still rewarding. 

That's not a bad idea...not bad at all.

[Coyotedancer]

13 hours ago, Twisted Toon said:

You mean, similar to (back when the game was live) when Dark Astoria was converted to an Incarnate zone and a solo path to Incarnates was introduced?

 

I was all for that.

 

I really don't like the iTrials. (Never did)

But, right after Incarnates were introduced, that was the only way for players to get anything beyond the Alpha slot.

Once the solo path was introduced, I never stepped foot in an iTrial again.

 

Yes, it took a lot longer to get the Incarnates slots (and salvage) on the solo path that it did in an iTrial.

That didn't stop me from soloing my Incarnate progression.

I enjoyed the solo path much more than any of the iTrials.

 

 

And here's where differences of opinion come in...

 

While I liked the idea of the DA "solo path" and still use it to this day, I found the live dev's pacing for it an absolute joke. We'd asked for a viable solo path and the time gates they included when they created one were just silly. I suspect they thought they had to do that... Had to make it absolutely, ridiculously slow and so as unattractive an option as possible... Because they were still trying to force as many people as they could into the "Grinding End-game Raids just like Warcraft is the New Hotness!"-plan for the game. (I remember Posi being a little flabbergasted that we even WANTED a solo Incarnate path, and got the distinct feeling that they only gave us what they did grudgingly-)

 

So, I would call the original Incarnate Solo Path an excellent example of what *NOT* to do as an alternate way to attain something rather than an example to be emulated. 

 

What would I consider more acceptable? The current alternatives for unlocking our Alpha slots are a better model to look at, I think. Playing through the game as usual to get the iXP to unlock that slot might take a couple of days, depending on what you're doing, but it's business-as-usual and not so slow that it's frustrating. Or you can choose to do Ramiel's arc instead. which is much faster... but involves having to beat up some goons who aren't necessarily easy targets for every character out there.  

[Luminara]

6 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

While I liked the idea of the DA "solo path" and still use it to this day, I found the live dev's pacing for it an absolute joke. We'd asked for a viable solo path and the time gates they included when they created one were just silly. I suspect they thought they had to do that... Had to make it absolutely, ridiculously slow and so as unattractive an option as possible... Because they were still trying to force as many people as they could into the "Grinding End-game Raids just like Warcraft is the New Hotness!"-plan for the game. (I remember Posi being a little flabbergasted that we even WANTED a solo Incarnate path, and got the distinct feeling that they only gave us what they did grudgingly-)

 

So, I would call the original Incarnate Solo Path an excellent example of what *NOT* to do as an alternate way to attain something rather than an example to be emulated.

 

The existing solo options are actually a little too quick.  But that is better than too slow, and the original design was definitely too slow (I19.5, estimated time to unlock and complete the Alpha slot solo, 4-9 months depending on difficulty setting and RNG).  I wouldn't complain if the HC team slowed it down a little, or added some difficulty to it by preconfiguring certain enemies to always con higher even when set to +0 or -1 and no bosses/no AVs.

 

But the original design was a complete mess anyway.  Making acquisition of Incarnate abilities part of the end-game content was a mistake because players had to experience that content without Incarnate abilities, and by the time they finished becoming Incarnates, there was no content which could require their newfound power.  Unlocking and creating Incarnate abilities should always have been the solo/small team content, and the Incarnate content specifically requiring Incarnate abilities and full teams.  As always, though, they had to compromise and try to make it all work as the same content because they couldn't dedicate the resources to doing them separately; and they worried about the possibility of non-Incarnate characters being "excluded" from end-game content, but rather than re-examine the solo route to becoming an Incarnate and adjusting it to make it more viable, they charged ahead with the all-in-one package.  The result was the content shortage for Incarnate characters that we're still dealing with today.

 

Had they been left to continue development beyond I24 beta, I don't think Paragon would've fixed this.  They would've continued along the path they laid out for themselves and painted themselves into another corner.  Again, a large part of that was the lack of personnel and time, but it was also the pencil and paper RPG background that most of them brought to the team.  They were accustomed to countering players by making something up on the fly, an approach that isn't remotely applicable to long-term game development and design.  There is no on-the-fly when it takes 8-16 weeks to release each update.  By the time Paragon could've addressed the problems inherent in the way the Incarnate system and content were designed, they would've been up to their ears in the Coming Storm stuff, obviating any changes they might have considered or made.  There was a definite lack of foresight in some of their development decisions.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

But the original design was a complete mess anyway.  Making acquisition of Incarnate abilities part of the end-game content was a mistake because players had to experience that content without Incarnate abilities, and by the time they finished becoming Incarnates, there was no content which could require their newfound power. 

This was the source of my dislike for the Incarnate system on Live: Aside from the cognitive dissonance of (per the narrative) being one of a handful of entities receiving Incarnate POWA) and playing on leagues with multiple-dozens of other Incarnates) having to limp along on Incarnate Trials just to unlock the slots was insulting. I greatly prefer having the solo path, as well as the ability to unlock Incarnate XP levels via defeating enemies.