Squishies Epic Armors grant 3 Mag Protection?

[arthurh35353]

Anti-mezz as a proc in a combat power is pretty horrible in design choice, I've decided after some thought.

 

If we go by tanks/brutes resistance caps, they take 10% max damage (just based on resistance). Everyone else caps at 75% resistance, so would 2.5 x the amount of damage. With Tanks having the highest amount of Mezz protection at 12 points, dividing the mezz protection of a tank by 2.5 would actually get squishies 4.8 mag protection.

 

Khelds you could actually split Hold and Stun protection across a couple of their personal shields.

[Monos King]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I think solo is where it matters most though, as in a team you have supports that do provide mez protection and at least added support in general to shore it up. When solo though, being mezzed is just not fun.

It's interesting you say that, because a thought came up to me while I mentioned the "team play is how the game is balanced around" note earlier. I wondered, "if that's the case, then why does mez protection on squishies matter?" They already get it in teams, and unlike res/def buffs it's essentially one and done unless your under intense enemy fire. Why not provide it in solo play too? But I realized it's still exactly because of the team play based balance. So here are my major qualms for everyone.

1. Granting squishies greater and inevitable mez protection steps on the toes of the support classes. Why would you even pick up a power like Clear Mind or Clarity when everyone already has the protection. If the OPs suggestion, it would be locking these powers usefulness to only lower levels, and if a more universal installation of mez protection were given, it would be be useless entirely. It would be useful only to Masterminds for their pets (who rarely get them), or in the AoE powers that offer a mez protection along with resistance/defense. We can discuss that issue. 
2. Granting squishies greater and inevitable mez protection will make squishies too potent. This is ok in team play with the corresponding increased difficulty (lets forget incarnates we already know difficulty is erased by it) but just isn't the intention for them in solo play. They have other options.
3. Squishies not having mez protection isn't a flaw, so any available options to give it to them can't be poor solutions - they are not seeking to remedy a problem. Just offer additional options for those particularly interested. This one is aimed more specifically at @arthurh35353

Anyone trying to get something like this through, the first 2 above are probably the first to address. 

 

[arthurh35353]

13 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Granting squishies greater and inevitable mez protection steps on the toes of the support classes. Why would you even pick up a power like Clear Mind or Clarity when everyone already has the protection. If the OPs suggestion, it would be locking these powers usefulness to only lower levels, and if a more universal installation of mez protection were given, it would be be useless entirely. It would be useful only to Masterminds for their pets (who rarely get them), or in the AoE powers that offer a mez protection along with resistance/defense. We can discuss that issue. 

No, not at all. Because those stack on top of anything they have and could be useful and have more than just mezz protection in them.

13 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Granting squishies greater and inevitable mez protection will make squishies too potent. This is ok in team play with the corresponding increased difficulty (lets forget incarnates we already know difficulty is erased by it) but just isn't the intention for them in solo play. They have other options.

Yeah, this one is just laughable. If 4pts of mezz protection makes my Dark/Dark Defender a soloing +4/x8 god, I'll eat one of my hats. There is a great level of difference between 'is no longer annoying to fight against low number of mezzing foes' and 'godlike immunity to all mezzing'.

13 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Squishies not having mez protection isn't a flaw, so any available options to give it to them can't be poor solutions - they are not seeking to remedy a problem. Just offer additional options for those particularly interested. This one is aimed more specifically at

And yet people like me have been saying its a flaw because it makes squishies much less fun when you don't have a team (because teaming doesn't auto-happen, you have to work at it). So this is 10000000000000% subjective.

[Monos King]

The major concerns there are on top of everything I stated before, some of which you have yet to respond to.

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

No, not at all. Because those stack on top of anything they have and could be useful and have more than just mezz protection in them.

I mentioned in that very post that mez applications are generally "one and done". This means you rarely need anymore than one, or enough to shrug off 1 or 2 applications. You don't get assaulted that often. Powers like Clarity are there to allow you to fight through and survive mez. When you can already do this, you are contributing as normal, attacking enemies, likely from a distance, or escaping, and not getting mezzed again. I know this very well because I have the funds to have experienced Defense Amplifiers, which if everyone always had, would do the same and already raises brows. That is the effect of +4 status effect protection, which will shield you from up to 2 mezzes ordinarily, and when combined with existing methods it infringes on their territory even more. Not to mention, the below applies.

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

Yeah, this one is just laughable. If 4pts of mezz protection makes my Dark/Dark Defender a soloing +4/x8 god, I'll eat one of my hats. There is a great level of difference between 'is no longer annoying to fight against low number of mezzing foes' and 'godlike immunity to all mezzing'.

As has been noted in various previous responses, squishies have other options. It is not laughable, you are ignoring the many other available options squishies have because you desire a melee playstyle on them, and fail to realize the significance of increased mez protection that is extremely coveted for this very reason of how potent it is. You should begin reading those responses. There is a reason a properly specced corruptor is a god of soloing. 

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

And yet people like me have been saying its a flaw because it makes squishies much less fun when you don't have a team (because teaming doesn't auto-happen, you have to work at it). So this is 10000000000000% subjective.

Because of the design of the game, it is not even remotely subjective. Your opinion on it is literally that, and thus subjective, and you need to do a better job addressing the above two concerns if you expect to get the squishies any additional protection outside of what they have. The "it's not fun" argument is the only one that has had any remote relevance thus far, as you have been rinsed with examples of how squishies can and do address mez, and dismissing the balance problems above so poorly doesn't add to it.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Monos King

[Riverdusk]

I wonder if people would be as resistant to adding some significant amount of mez resistance rather than protection to some of the epics.  I know a lot of people look down on resistance but once you get a significant amount of it, I do find it can be useful.  This is from my experience with radiation's accelerate metabolism which gives about 200% mez resistance (which cuts mez time down to about 1/3rd).  Still dangerous to get mezzed, but I found myself dying a lot less from mezzes when for example a 12 second hold only lasts about 4 seconds when I had AM running.  And it still isn't going to let you tank, if a whole mob is beating on you, 4 seconds is still going to = death unless you use one of the other "ways" to break out or avoid it.  But it would be enough to help against the occasional mez thrown your way.

 

I've thought before actually I think the game would have been better if mez protection didn't exist and it was all just resistance.  Then things wouldn't be so binary. Tanks would be given enough res that they'd shake mezzes off almost instantly and it'd go down from there based on AT.  That was probably partly thrown out because in the old days it also dropped all your defensive toggles and it was a pita to retoggle everything, which thankfully that doesn't happen anymore.

 

But that'd be a whole different game at this point.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Riverdusk

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Riverdusk said:

I wonder if people would be as resistant to adding some significant amount of mez resistance rather than protection to some of the epics.  I know a lot of people look down on resistance but once you get a significant amount of it, I do find it can be useful.  This is from my experience with radiation's accelerate metabolism which gives about 200% mez resistance (which cuts mez time down to about 1/3rd).  Still dangerous to get mezzed, but I found myself dying a lot less from mezzes when for example a 12 second hold only lasts about 4 seconds when I had AM running.  And it still isn't going to let you tank, if a whole mob is beating on you, 4 seconds is still going to = death unless you use one of the other "ways" to break out or avoid it.  But it would be enough to help against the occasional mez thrown your way.

Hilariously enough, I was just talking to Galaxy Brain about this exact idea. We were also discussing more weird ideas like defiance adding status resistance or other inherents adding health-scaling status protection. I'm personally all for increased Mez Resistance; people don't really talk about it and it's much more manageably potent.

[arthurh35353]

8 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

That was probably partly thrown out because in the old days it also dropped all your defensive toggles and it was a pita to retoggle everything, which thankfully that doesn't happen anymore.

You also run into offensive toggles that are debuffing, which are still dropped if get mezzed.

 

It doesn't help you stay alive debuffing people if that's your 'defense'.

[arthurh35353]

On 11/23/2020 at 3:29 AM, Monos King said:

Hilariously enough, I was just talking to Galaxy Brain about this exact idea. We were also discussing more weird ideas like defiance adding status resistance or other inherents adding health-scaling status protection. I'm personally all for increased Mez Resistance; people don't really talk about it and it's much more manageably potent.

The problem is that it doesn't stop the two parts of stuns/holds that are the cripple of squishies. They stop you from taking active actions to keep you alive and they drop any offensive toggle/power. So any power that debuffs damage, accuracy, to-hit, recharge or regeneration, on top of stopping you from actively damaging the opponent.

 

And if you are against 2 mezzers at a time, potentially mez-locked to death. +4 mag doesn't stop you from getting mezzed, it just makes it less likely to ruin your life in short order.

 

Against higher ranked enemies (like bosses or elite-bosses) the danger shoots up dramatically because they can kill the squishies even through their resistances at a fast pace.

 

It is the touch of death to anyone that doesn't have any protection, so becomes this cliff face that you smash your face into.

Edited November 27, 2020 by arthurh35353

[SeraphimKensai]

I've said for years Kheldians should have some Mez protection in their armors. 

[arthurh35353]

2 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I've said for years Kheldians should have some Mez protection in their armors. 

Considering they get a melee shield almost immediately, I think I can agree with that. Depending on Controllers/Dominators for +mag protection is pretty subpar and hurts soloing badly, especially at low levels.

Edited November 28, 2020 by arthurh35353

[arthurh35353]

I've actually had some more play experience that I think kind of points to the fact that giving everyone a minimal amount of mezz protection (+4 mag protection against stun/holds) isn't that broken. I played over on a couple of the other servers (they had either basic mezz protection or AV triangles) and with Defense amplifiers and nothing really became broken, I just wasn't randomly held to death and couldn't do anything. And recently on some teams while I was playing with my Dark/Dark Sentinel, I actually got mezzed through their level of protection while teaming.

 

I truly feel that some basic ability to mezz protect the squishier ATs would only enhance their fun level and maybe make them a bit more survivable without actually making them 'super soloing gods that break the game'.

 

People say that it would break the game, but I'm very sure it would just make the end level game more fun for more people and ATs. Giving people more choices to play instead of pushing them to play ATs with mezz protection (I no longer find blasters, defenders or corruptors any fun because of the fact that I'm a second class citizen because I of no mezz protection).

Edited January 3, 2021 by arthurh35353
clarification

[Grindingsucks]

Eh, on the one hand, I play Blasters and Controllers and feel they play great without it.  I'm also generally against anything that would add to the power creep that already runs rampant throughout the game.

 

But... on the other hand, is it going to break the game?  No, you're right.  It won't break the game.  But, if you want the Dev's to concentrate on bringing relative parity (power-wise) to the various AT's, I think there are other classes and specific powersets (Sentinels, Regeneration, etc.) that ought to have priority.

 

Do keep in mind that a few AT's were designed with team play in mind (Controllers/Defenders) and their descriptions state very clearly that they can get into trouble when fighting solo.  This is by design.  The implication is that they should have teammates to tank and draw aggro, to better avoid the occasion of getting mezzed.

 

I do think your position that you don't want to play the AT's because you don't find them fun due to lack of mez protection will be a non-starter in getting that changed.  What you really need to do is make a compelling argument for why the AT's NEED the change from a balance/performance perspective.

 

Maybe Defenders need it.  I don't know- I don't ever play defenders.  But I play a lot of Blasters and Corrupters and they rarely get mezzed, because they either destroy the opposition first, or hang back and let their teammates engage before they attack the enemy.  In reality, this means very little (for me, often none) downtime due to mezzing.  And you should always carry a break free, or two, for those times that you get unlucky.

[arthurh35353]

17 minutes ago, Grindingsucks said:

Do keep in mind that a few AT's were designed with team play in mind (Controllers/Defenders) and their descriptions state very clearly that they can get into trouble when fighting solo.  This is by design.  The implication is that they should have teammates to tank and draw aggro, to better avoid the occasion of getting mezzed.

The question you should be asking is that should a penalty be levied to force Blasters and Defenders to team be enforced, or should they have just as much choice to play solo and bring their shining points to those teams and even function better for them.

 

An AT should not require any other AT to have a basic level of fun and effectiveness. You are right now stating that Defenders and Blasters should be subservient and require having other people to feel powerful and useful and that if they don't, they should just deal with it and be frustrated.

 

And that's a bad point and idea. In fact, I'd even call it toxic.

[BrandX]

Clarion...mez protection.  Barrier...Defense/Resist.  Right there, one doesn't have to feel obligated to take Clarion.  Control and Melee Hybrid also give some form of Status Protection.  Also, isn't there some Blaster Secondary Sets that give status resist?  Not all, but some.  Atomic?

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

19 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Clarion...mez protection.  Barrier...Defense/Resist.  Right there, one doesn't have to feel obligated to take Clarion.  Control and Melee Hybrid also give some form of Status Protection.  Also, isn't there some Blaster Secondary Sets that give status resist?  Not all, but some.  Atomic?

 

 

There's 3 secondaries that give super limited protection, but the rest do not and incarnate stuff comes up so late in the game that its sort of moot 😞

[arthurh35353]

20 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Also, isn't there some Blaster Secondary Sets that give status resist?  Not all, but some.  Atomic?

You'd need to get an absurd amount of Status Resist to really make a difference. +100% to lower mezzes by 50%. +200% to drop them to 33%, then +400% to 25% time. 

[Hyperstrike]

If you're going to make everyone immune to standard mezz levels

WHY
HAVE
MEZZ
AT
ALL
?

[Replacement]

If you're going to be so hyperbolic as to pretend minor protection is the same as not "having mezz at all,"

 

WHY

POST 

AT 

ALL 

?

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Replacement

[Galaxy Brain]

@Hyperstrike, tanking 1 mez =/= mez immune.

 

 

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

If you're going to be so hyperbolic as to pretend minor protection is the same as not "having mezz at all,"

 

WHY

POST 

AT 

ALL 

?

 

Because this is how power creep starts.

Just THIS much.
Then.  Not sufficient!  More!

Learn how to play the game using the tools you're given.
Stop demanding everything be made "easy mode".

[Dragon Crush]

19 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Learn how to play the game using the tools you're given.

So, I can accept the general idea that power creep can be bad and listen to most arguments against it, but I want to point to this as a bad one. If we just "Lean how to play the game using the tools you're given" then there may as well never be another update, and hey, why not roll back every new AT, powerset, power change and improvement made since I1?

 

No, for a living (or semi-undead) game with updates, looking for and pushing for change is a vital part of keeping it going.

 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Dragon Crush
spotted wrong word

[Apparition]

As far as I am concerned, there is no need for this.  Whenever I create a new Blaster, Corruptor, or Defender, I keep Defense Amplifier on it at all times from there on in.  It means restocking every eight hours, but big deal.  Paying for Defense Amplifier every eight hours of in-game time also keeps inflation down.

 

I know some will go, "Paying 20 million INF for eight hours of Defense Amplifier at level 50 is too much!"  No, it isn't.  I can get that in about a hour of play, sometimes less if I'm lucky.  No farming required.

 

This is a problem already solved looking for a solution.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Dragon Crush said:

So, I can accept the general idea that power creep can be bad and listen to most arguments against it, but I want to point to this as a bad one. If we just "Lean how to play the game using the tools you're given" then there may as well never be another update, and hey, why not roll back every new AT, powerset, power change and improvement made since I1?

 

No, for a living (or semi-undead) game with updates, looking for and pushing for change is a vital part of keeping it going.

So new content, new power sets, etc, are completely impossible unless we drastically change how mezz functions on squishies?

Yeah.  Uh.  NO!

[Dragon Crush]

Right, you're just being intentionally obtuse and antagonistic now. Like I said, you can argue against power creep, and I may very well agree with those arguments, but saying just take the game as is, is asking for the game never grow and die off.

[Hyperstrike]

Getting REALLY sick and tired of beinc alled "obtuse and antagonistic" simply because I disagree with you.

YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO LIKE OR AGREE WITH MY OPINIONS.

If you disagree, and can't sway me SO WHAT?  We can agree that we disagree and simply move on.
But stop trying to respond to discussions on game mechanics with attempts at social and political attacks.
Because, at that point, you are no longer discussing the game.  You're simply calling names and casting aspersions.

And there are REASONS why certain things in the game are the way they are.

So let's put it another way.

What are YOU willing to sacrifice in order to gain this advantage?
Damage?  Range?  Recharge?  Ancillary effects?  HP?  Endurance?  Animation time lengths?

Or are you demanding a buff with no downside whatsoever?